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RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 10/28/2011 10:06:45 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		I'm at the end of May 42.

I succesfully held off the IJN anti clockwise offensive in battles off Cape Leeuwin between Perth and Albany. I took out CVL Ryujo and CB Lutzow, I suffered medium damage to the Lexington BUT didnt have enough fuel left to stay. My CV had to retreat to Sydney.

The driblets continued to land at Geraldton (Why does the AI struggle with Invasions, it managed to lift a full Div and a Rgt into Akyab, why not to other loacations??)

Late April saw Diego Garcia invaded, and evacuated?   Its now got a British Bde building an airfield for B52's.

Next came the clockwise CV trip around Australia, this is where you see how weak OZ was as I have few modern aircraft (maybe I was a bit defensive in other areas which kept USAAF sqns busy) after an attempt by my Cruiser force to intercept a CVTF, which succeded only to find the IJN steam away at 30kts and then pound my CA's. I had 3 usable CV in Sydney Harbour, hardly any useable aircraft as the battles off WA used up the reserves (I landed some Sqns and upgraded them to SBC & SBU's).   Thankfully the IJN was on Naval attack and stemed past, after smashing my TK TF (I still screw up with 2 day turns)

Next was a trip by the IJN into Port Phillip Bay, past the batteries at Queenscliff and Portsea and trough The Rip in winter!!!   I'm trying to scrape up some minelayers but will probably be too little, too late.   My next move is to flood aircraft into Perth and see if I can get them going around the corner. I alsofind the RN Destroyers have pitiful bunkerage and cant do the hop from Colombo to Perth!

Early May saw an invasion of Attu, I got a Sigint warning and started to fly in a Bn and got 1 days worth before the landings. Just enough to hold off the attacks and I have a Regiment on ships heading that way.

As mentioned, a Div and Rgt landed at Akyab, but has sat there and done nothing!  Which is about the same for all of Burma, I'm now sitting in solid positions on the Indian side of the border waiting for the next moves.

THOUGHTS.
The IJN attacks on OZ would have been better supported by landings at bases from Canarvon around to Cooktown, here the driplet aproach would have sufficed and had the Allied player runinning his LCU around everywhere. I had 2 Bdes at Port Augusta waiting to react to an invasion of the east coast or a continued west coast attack.


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Post #: 31
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 10/29/2011 1:50:41 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		It is very hard to get the AI to conduct properly supported invasions - pretty much the hardest thing to get it to do.

Send me a save please jeff and I will take a look at which script its following

a.mcphie@btinternet.com

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 32
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 10/29/2011 1:51:27 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Yup west australia invasions dont seem to be working well at mo

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 33
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 10/29/2011 2:08:28 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Follow up to my previous posts.

The main reason why I am coming to the conclusion that I need to relent on my stand against allowing the AI to be supplied while surrounded (ie...playing on Hard instead of Historical) is the penchant the AI has for getting huge stacks surrounded.

As I mentioned above, the AI is pounding China with air and seems to be concentrating a huge air effort there. On the ground, on the other hand, it has been a pure disaster. The Chinese have reconquered most of Japanese held China.

The AI forms up huge stacks and heads off down the road to conquer one city after another. Only problem is it never bothers to garrison anything it takes. Once a city falls the entire huge stack moves on down the road to the next city. The Chinese units displaced from the first city simply move back in and reoccupy it. The AI succeeds in taking several cities bfore the Chinese can muster a strong enough stack to cause the AI's advance to bog down. Once they succeed in bogging down the huge stack into a protracted siege, it's only a matter of time until the AIs huge stack is starved into submission.

The AI pays no attention whatsoever to the need to garrison what it has taken and allows the Chinese army to close in around it like an amoeba and simply swallow it up.

Perhaps playing on hard will at least make it take a whole lot longer to reduce the huge stacks that like to get themselves surrounded.



< Message edited by HansBolter -- 10/29/2011 2:09:46 PM >

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Post #: 34
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 10/29/2011 3:05:03 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I can only tell the AI to attack base by base so it isnt good at out of base defences

Also it doesnt garriosn quickly enough sometimes

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 35
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 10/29/2011 3:07:46 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I can only tell the AI to attack base by base so it isnt good at out of base defences

Also it doesnt garriosn quickly enough sometimes



Sounds like this confirms the need to play on hard instead of historical.

Next game will be on hard setting.

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Hans


(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 36
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 10/31/2011 3:46:17 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Hans, Play it on hard and dont go out to bash the AI silly.

End of July 42 approaching.

Small bits.

A bit of AMC action between SF & PH, solved with a hunter/killer group with 2 CL & 4 DD patrolling.
Attu fell, a day before my reos arrived, being a 2 day game, they landed on day 2 and got smashed.
Kiska fell as well, though undefended.  I am building Adak? and its got the best part of a Division, retreat ends there.
Burma seems to have fallen asleep, Akyab was taken but they havent moved any further. I'm building up my fighters for an onslaught with a lot of USAAF arriving now.
Nothing happening between Midway and Sydney, Ndeni was taken but thats all.
My intel is saying I sank 2 CV and 4 CVL off West Oz, I'll count up a full tally soon.
Beaufighters at 100ft kill IJN merchies.

Meanwhile,
Midway was attacked again, my patrols didnt spot them until the Gooney Birds got scared away. Reportedly Yamato and another BB, smashed the islands but only the rump of a Naval Force landed.  I reacted and sent 2 CV into the area and on not getting any reports of CV moved to 3 hexes east of Midway.  Somehow my Marines missed the 2 IJN CV circling the island and I lost Hornet while only landed 2-3 bomb hits, Wasp struggled home. Luckily, the aircraft wich diverted to Midway were instumental in  pushing back a further invasion attempt by sinking some AK. Landing pushed back again. (I had a Marine Para Bn on the islands)

The battle for Geraldton had been simmering, stupid AI kept sending in penny packets. I decided that my strategic reserve needed to be in Sydney to react in case movement happened in the South Pacific.  Another fleet sailed to Geraldton, got attacked by my last 3 DD out of Perth and dropped its load of 6th Guards Division on a non base hex, 1 hex south of Geraldton!!!!!
I moved a Bde and 2 Bns out to block it and a Bde from Perth, when settled they were ordered to move to the hex and then I found that an Inf Bde, 10 LH and an Inf Bn moved directly west but the 4th Cav Bde moved via Geraldton????   Didnt matter in the end as 6th Guards was unsupplied.

Moved my units back into Geraldton.

Then the AI totally screwed up by landing 3 full IJA Infantry Divisions at Geraldton, if this happened 2 mths back it might have been succesful. Now I have to move 16th (Duke of York) Bde back across country plus anything else (a few Armd Rgts with Lee/Grant) I can find, the shop at Ooldea will be busy.

Finally got an airforce into OZ. 1 CV still in the docks in Sydney, 3 others just passing Kiribati headed to PH.

Apart from OZ plus the occasional outbreak in the Aleutians or Midway the AI isnt doing much, or is it???   Seen some more BB with funny names!

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(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 37
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 10/31/2011 6:30:01 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Hans, Play it on hard and dont go out to bash the AI silly.

End of July 42 approaching.

Small bits.

A bit of AMC action between SF & PH, solved with a hunter/killer group with 2 CL & 4 DD patrolling.
Attu fell, a day before my reos arrived, being a 2 day game, they landed on day 2 and got smashed.
Kiska fell as well, though undefended.  I am building Adak? and its got the best part of a Division, retreat ends there.
Burma seems to have fallen asleep, Akyab was taken but they havent moved any further. I'm building up my fighters for an onslaught with a lot of USAAF arriving now.
Nothing happening between Midway and Sydney, Ndeni was taken but thats all.
My intel is saying I sank 2 CV and 4 CVL off West Oz, I'll count up a full tally soon.
Beaufighters at 100ft kill IJN merchies.

Meanwhile,
Midway was attacked again, my patrols didnt spot them until the Gooney Birds got scared away. Reportedly Yamato and another BB, smashed the islands but only the rump of a Naval Force landed.  I reacted and sent 2 CV into the area and on not getting any reports of CV moved to 3 hexes east of Midway.  Somehow my Marines missed the 2 IJN CV circling the island and I lost Hornet while only landed 2-3 bomb hits, Wasp struggled home. Luckily, the aircraft wich diverted to Midway were instumental in  pushing back a further invasion attempt by sinking some AK. Landing pushed back again. (I had a Marine Para Bn on the islands)

The battle for Geraldton had been simmering, stupid AI kept sending in penny packets. I decided that my strategic reserve needed to be in Sydney to react in case movement happened in the South Pacific.  Another fleet sailed to Geraldton, got attacked by my last 3 DD out of Perth and dropped its load of 6th Guards Division on a non base hex, 1 hex south of Geraldton!!!!!
I moved a Bde and 2 Bns out to block it and a Bde from Perth, when settled they were ordered to move to the hex and then I found that an Inf Bde, 10 LH and an Inf Bn moved directly west but the 4th Cav Bde moved via Geraldton????   Didnt matter in the end as 6th Guards was unsupplied.

Moved my units back into Geraldton.

Then the AI totally screwed up by landing 3 full IJA Infantry Divisions at Geraldton, if this happened 2 mths back it might have been succesful. Now I have to move 16th (Duke of York) Bde back across country plus anything else (a few Armd Rgts with Lee/Grant) I can find, the shop at Ooldea will be busy.

Finally got an airforce into OZ. 1 CV still in the docks in Sydney, 3 others just passing Kiribati headed to PH.

Apart from OZ plus the occasional outbreak in the Aleutians or Midway the AI isnt doing much, or is it???   Seen some more BB with funny names!




I alrady don't go out to bash the AI silly.

I let it have Canton without a fight.

I don't detach the CA's escorting transport TFs on day two to intercept the AI at Tarawa.

I don't air transport the battalion at PM to Rabaul to delay the conquest.

I don't mine the straits between Java and Sumatra.

I don't evac the III Indian Corps from Singapore and station it in level 5 forts at Pegu to deny the AI the conquest of Burma.

As I discover actions on the Allied part that send the game down the tubes by trashing the AI too early I add them to my list of things not to do next game.

Playing on hard and relinquishing my stand against allowing the AI the "cheat" of never being unsupplied just got added to the list.

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Hans


(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 38
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 11/3/2011 1:19:45 AM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Decatur, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Playing Ironman on regular setting as Allies, latest Beta in general up to 5/10/42. Going all out to take advantages of AI weaknesses, got most Sinapore forces into DEI.

Biggest problem for AI is numerous small CV groups. As a result, have held S. Sumatra and Java and killed 2 CV's, 8 CVL's and 5 CVE's. Lexington nearly lost it, but wound up 50 major flot, 20 major flot to Enterprise, minor damage to 2 other cV's. Stranded and destroyed divisional invasions + at Palembang, Merak, and Kalidjati. Now trying to retake the two lost bases on Timor before trying to reopen supply through DEI to Phillipines.

AI presses me much harder than I'm used to in the air and in China.
AI causes problems for me with AMC raiders in South Pacifac. Germans only annoying with recon. Severe shortage of aircraft, but losing very few pilots.

Easy to avoid subs - send ships on straight diagonal SE from San Diego.

Near-run on Luzon, but held and managed slowly to slip through counterattack and isolate superior invasion forces in Manila and Clark. Also slipped individual supply ships with some losses through Central Pacifac.

After fall of Rabaul, no follow-up in the Solomons, stopped offensive in NG and retook Buna and Lae, now going after Finschafen. Also AI never bothered to take Gasmata. No offensive activity in Central Pacifac after Wake, AI currently invading Canton Island in South.

< Message edited by wpurdom -- 11/3/2011 1:41:38 AM >

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 39
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 11/6/2011 1:31:16 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		hmmm sounds like it fell apart in your game wpurdom please let me have a save I need to see which script caused it

(in reply to wpurdom)
Post #: 40
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 11/25/2011 6:22:17 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		OK, just remembered this thread. In my same game I'm up to near the end of Dec. 42. KB is still intact minus the two mentioned CVs. It, or a good chunk of it, hangs north of Ndeni doing apparent circles, but my CVs don't bite. KB is smart enough not to go into my LBA range (of which many are based at Ndeni).

There were a lot of piecemeal invasions of Perth, which were easily handled. Also, Attu and Kiska were taken but no further movement in NoPac.

I'm going to try a CenPac thrust through Tarawa, Kwaj, Truk, Guam, Babelfish and the PI, and a DEI thrust through West Timor, Flores, Java, West Borneo to Sing out of West Oz. I plan to bypass NG and most of the Solomons just to try something different.

Burma is pretty quiet for now as I've imposed on myself the need to unrestrict Indian units to go past Akyab or the rest of the border. I'll do a quiet move on Ramree to build that base up for now, then head to Rangoon when it seems I have a quorum.

Regarding how to play the AI: I like letting the two AIs play each other for a while before taking over. Otherwise you would have to be very passive if you want a decent game to ensue.

Cheers,
CC

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Post #: 41
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 11/25/2011 1:18:11 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

hmmm sounds like it fell apart in your game wpurdom please let me have a save I need to see which script caused it

Andy,

would be very interested to learn how you debug this type of issue. What do you look for and how do you decide which script is not firing ... thanks!! Just starting to look at the AI scripts ...

PS: hopefully, this is info you can share without violating your NDA ....

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 11/25/2011 1:20:21 PM >

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Post #: 42
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 11/27/2011 11:39:36 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I take a look at what script the player is using
Look at specifically why it fell apart what sequence of events
maybe run a few turns witht he AI script de bugger see whats happened
Try to figure it out and fix it.

The key is to figure out which specific AI scrip has caused the issue

Andy

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 43
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 12/3/2011 10:01:49 AM   
pmattiasn

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Stockholm
Status: offline 		Hi Andy,

Posted this in the tech support but got good advice to move this discussion here.

Just started a new AI game as allied. Ironman v3, I think under the latest beta (p3?). I sent the initial IO reinforcements already on ships (18th Brit ID etc) to Calcutta. And they all steamed happily up the river and started unloading. However, several turns later I realize that AP West Point apparently is too big to get out?!? I've tried disbanding and forming new TFs, setting various destinations etc but nothing works. Really annoying as I do not want to continue and I haven't kept enough saves to go back to before it went into port.

Edit: Wakefield and Mt Vernon are also too large to sail the river apparently but they are disbanded, and stuck, in Calcutta now. Is there any way of beaming them just one hex ?

Restart the only option to letting it sit there for the rest of the war?

Cheers,
Mattias

< Message edited by PMN -- 12/3/2011 10:23:55 AM >

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 44
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 12/3/2011 10:45:59 AM   
pmattiasn

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Stockholm
Status: offline 		Hi again - never mind the above, I was offered the services of Scotty for a day. After disbanding all three in port, the next turn opreport has them moved to SF due to "invalid hex location"!

That was a first for me...

(in reply to pmattiasn)
Post #: 45
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 12/3/2011 12:48:09 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PMN

Hi again - never mind the above, I was offered the services of Scotty for a day.



Good description. Never seen that either. Good to know it exists though!

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Post #: 46
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 12/3/2011 10:18:23 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Another tactic to get a quick turnaround of AP!!

Being serious for half a second, does this mean that large ships can go up river, smash the defenders, drop of an invasion and then Stargate back to their base out of danger or run away from an overwhelming force, disbad, and find yourself in safety?

< Message edited by JeffK -- 12/3/2011 10:20:06 PM >

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Post #: 47
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 12/7/2011 1:46:19 PM   
Enterprise


Posts: 31
Joined: 9/10/2010
Status: offline 		I don't know if this is new thread worthy or not so I'll post here first.


On Jan 19, 1942, I have a total P40e availabilty discrepancy of -110 over my previous scenario 1 GC game while using ironman V3. This was derived from adding losses, active, pools, and ops delays.
This roughly corresponds to the 114 P40e that arrive in brisbane in 5 fighter groups ~ mid january in scen 1, that dont seem to arrive in Ironman. Is this all according to plan, or am I missing something?

actual totals were 219 total in ironman and 329 in scen 1


edited to add there is apparently also a shortage of pilots in the 40-50 experience range that is likely from the same or similar causes.
fighter A2A losses are up of course (222 vs 101) but pilot losses have not been high since I typically fight over my own bases

Thanks in advance for any help

< Message edited by Enterprise -- 12/7/2011 1:55:39 PM >

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 48
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 12/14/2011 2:09:29 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		I just want to make a comment that man, I've never seen so many strangely-named CVs and CVLs on the IJN side. It definitely keeps me on my toes and in mid-43 I am still cautiously advancing on only one vector. Also, I've lost a number of merchies in EastPac and the Indian Ocean to 1-2 CV/CVL TFs. On the plus side, sometimes I can intercept those TFs.

One other note: I reconned Truk and found it had over 90,000 troops (on a 30,000 or 60,000 limit) and about 1000 ea. fighters and bombers. That might be a bit too much centralization as there are other bases nearby that could use more air assets.

Cheers,
CC

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Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to Enterprise)
Post #: 49
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 12/19/2011 12:37:01 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Enterprise

I don't know if this is new thread worthy or not so I'll post here first.


On Jan 19, 1942, I have a total P40e availabilty discrepancy of -110 over my previous scenario 1 GC game while using ironman V3. This was derived from adding losses, active, pools, and ops delays.
This roughly corresponds to the 114 P40e that arrive in brisbane in 5 fighter groups ~ mid january in scen 1, that dont seem to arrive in Ironman. Is this all according to plan, or am I missing something?

actual totals were 219 total in ironman and 329 in scen 1


edited to add there is apparently also a shortage of pilots in the 40-50 experience range that is likely from the same or similar causes.
fighter A2A losses are up of course (222 vs 101) but pilot losses have not been high since I typically fight over my own bases

Thanks in advance for any help



I have been playing Ironman for some time now. I have at least 6 original Ironman scenarios played to at least early '43 and I can say with some confidence that I do not ever remember there being a distribution of P40Es directly to OZ or Capetown in that scenario. I haven't played an origonal campaign scenario in some time so I really don't remember how Ironman compares to it. In Ironman everything has to be shipped to Oz.

I did just recently start a new Ironman v3 and am in mid Jan '42. I do seem to have a shortage of P40Es compared to the original Ironman scenario. There seemes to be less extant P40E squadrons to canabalize to feed the pool. This is just a vague impression and nothing I have compared any stats on.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Enterprise)
Post #: 50
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 12/19/2011 1:41:21 PM   
kfsgo

 

Posts: 446
Joined: 9/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Enterprise



I went and did some digging (for some reason I have a bunch of remnant files - I think organising everything was confusing in the early days!) - I don't know what version of ironman this is exactly, but the file claims to be from July 2010, so presumably it's an older one:



So that definitely was a thing, at some point. Whether the removal was intentional or not I obviously have no idea.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 51
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 12/24/2011 7:39:44 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Lost all my new AI files in my ssyteme meltdopwn so keep the data coming and I will investigate when and if I recover

(in reply to kfsgo)
Post #: 52
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 12/24/2011 9:59:59 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Lost all my new AI files in my ssyteme meltdopwn so keep the data coming and I will investigate when and if I recover

Oh ****e!!! Really sorry to hear this.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 53
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 12/27/2011 3:10:55 AM   
Enterprise


Posts: 31
Joined: 9/10/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks kfsgo for digging that up. Hilariously, I posted my question in a separate thread on 12-18 and stopped checking this thread til just now.

I postulate that those 135 p40e that in the past arrived capetown 2-16-42 are related to issues raised in my post

note that we're talking ~1/3 of all p40e availablity at these early dates

Call me Captain Obvious and consider this a bump.

Thanks Andy Mac for following up if and when possible. Sorry about your files.

(in reply to kfsgo)
Post #: 54
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 1/27/2012 7:11:26 PM   
Enterprise


Posts: 31
Joined: 9/10/2010
Status: offline 		bumping to reraise issue of P40e arrivals in early 42

thanks

(in reply to Enterprise)
Post #: 55
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 2/6/2012 6:50:08 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I have it fixed in my current beta version of v5.

I need to test it a little but broadly the Japanese should be a little bit more robust on defence with some substantial sustainable CAG issues resolved for Japan.

Not done anything to AI files yet but a lot of fixes elsewhere

(in reply to Enterprise)
Post #: 56
RE: IRONMAN - SPOILER THREAD - 2/6/2012 6:50:43 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		ps does anyone have any art work for the japanese 4E bomber I forget the name

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 57
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