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RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 9:35:02 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Nemo states that Rader might be producing 3000 fighters a month, that is highly unlikely. Maybe half that.

Why? This is scn 2, In which the Jap player pays a huge HI tax each month later in the game for the extra pilot training that comes with this scn. I realise he has banked extra HI points thanks to his conquests in India and China, but even so there is no way he can produce 3000 a month without bankrupting his economy. My guess is that Rader has been producing nothing other than fighters for the last 6 months or so. As there has never been a CV battle in this game he probably has enough naval TB and DB in the pools to last till 1955, likewise Nettys. Army bombers are pretty much useless at this stage of the game as well, apart from the torpedo carrying Ki-67.

It really boils my piss when people whine "Its scen 2 so they can produce unlimited planes/pilots forever" Its a lot more complicated than that!


3000 fighters per month in 1944 in Rader's earlier condtions is not difficult, if you focus on fighter production and accept that many of them will not be of the best types. All major fleet units already should be comissioned, he probably can or did turn off merchant production, relying on the existing pool of cargo ships. I just checked my longest game, I'm making 790 fighters of all types in August of 1943, while retaining very sizeable bomber production (1346 aircraft in total) and stockpiling several types engines. Completion of remaining carriers in the building queue will allow me to more than double overall air production, while turning off some HI to preserve large stocks of fuel for fleet operation. There is a possibility of tripling it instead, by stopping all merchant construction, but fighter pilots already are a serious limiting factor on my operations. Rader either found better ways to train them than I did, or just is better at accepting losses. Bottom line, with a mastery of economics making 3-4k of fighters per month late in the war is very possible, they are just impossible to crew with competent pilots.

Granted, this is a Scen 1-based game. But, Scen 2 gives huge extra stockpiles of fuel and oil by comparison, and Rader owned oil fields in India for a long time, still owns China.

< Message edited by FatR -- 12/7/2011 9:38:06 AM >

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(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 4171
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 10:11:17 AM   
Itdepends

 

Posts: 937
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline 		Things are starting to make sense RE Greyjoy
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

History Ch. has always been horrible, except for some interesting footage (War War II in Colours).

Now it has also become (at least here in Italy) a channell dedicated to Aliens Enigmas, Old-Stuff Sellers and Ice-Truckers...

Probably crappier than ever


I do a quick google search for "hairy italian" and every hit on the first page is for a porn site. Do the samy thing for hairy Australian and the first hit is porn, the rest are about wombats and spiders

< Message edited by Itdepends -- 12/7/2011 10:12:47 AM >

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 4172
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 10:13:02 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		Well, some may call it "porn", some other may call it "Art"...everything is relative my friend

(in reply to Itdepends)
Post #: 4173
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 10:39:22 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		Ok, so for the 3rd and 4th of May we will concentrate our effort in closing once for all Harbin a/c production.

220 B-24Js will be called into action for this mission. I equally distributed my bombers towards the different targets and all the industries should be hit.

I know it's not a "juicy target"...but at least is something we can start with untill we have enough 4Es to concentrate on Honshu.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 4174
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 11:27:20 AM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		GJ - following up on Nemo, this is a great way to start your next series of surprise moves. You can lead Rader by the nose here - he'll see your concentration & watch his precious aircraft factories start going up in flames. You can even telegraph some of your next moves - force him to commit, then you change directions and kick him in the ass.

Probably a poor explanation, Nemo would do it much better - but if you make Rader jump in one direction, then hit him from another, your operations will be much more effective.

Still, great job - you have earned in place in the AE Hall of Fame, for no other reason than you are a glutton for punishment!

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 4175
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 11:33:50 AM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:



A My offensive has pushed Nemo to stop moving troops to Okkaido and he's now evacuating what he can from hakkodate...


its even worse, he has succesfully invaded your mind.

_____________________________



(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 4176
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 2:32:26 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:



A My offensive has pushed Nemo to stop moving troops to Okkaido and he's now evacuating what he can from hakkodate...


its even worse, he has succesfully invaded your mind.


LOL...i meant Rader....but Nemo has clearly invaded my mind

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 4177
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 2:34:41 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

GJ - following up on Nemo, this is a great way to start your next series of surprise moves. You can lead Rader by the nose here - he'll see your concentration & watch his precious aircraft factories start going up in flames. You can even telegraph some of your next moves - force him to commit, then you change directions and kick him in the ass.

Probably a poor explanation, Nemo would do it much better - but if you make Rader jump in one direction, then hit him from another, your operations will be much more effective.

Still, great job - you have earned in place in the AE Hall of Fame, for no other reason than you are a glutton for punishment!


Yes, i got it...i should now take note of everything my recon tells me about his a/c factories. Then, once i have a decent map of his factories, stand down my reconj planes for a week and then concentrate only in a single place, so "forcing" Rader to concentrate his CAP effort over a certain part of Japan and then hit with 500 4Es at the exact opposite site...

what do u mean with "glutton for punishment"?

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 4178
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 2:36:48 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Ok, so for the 3rd and 4th of May we will concentrate our effort in closing once for all Harbin a/c production.

220 B-24Js will be called into action for this mission. I equally distributed my bombers towards the different targets and all the industries should be hit.

I know it's not a "juicy target"...but at least is something we can start with untill we have enough 4Es to concentrate on Honshu.




This is my first look at the FOW changes from the beta, and I don't like them. I've been working Harbin over in my game, and those aircraft factories are not of equal importance by far. I disagree that Allied aerial recon, particularly by 1944, couldn't tell what model plane was coming out of each plant. I think this is yet another realized JFB whine which pushes the game into a corner it should not be pushed into.

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(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 4179
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 2:40:13 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Ok, so for the 3rd and 4th of May we will concentrate our effort in closing once for all Harbin a/c production.

220 B-24Js will be called into action for this mission. I equally distributed my bombers towards the different targets and all the industries should be hit.

I know it's not a "juicy target"...but at least is something we can start with untill we have enough 4Es to concentrate on Honshu.




This is my first look at the FOW changes from the beta, and I don't like them. I've been working Harbin over in my game, and those aircraft factories are not of equal importance by far. I disagree that Allied aerial recon, particularly by 1944, couldn't tell what model plane was coming out of each plant. I think this is yet another realized JFB whine which pushes the game into a corner it should not be pushed into.


Let me clarify: in this screenshot you cannot tell which a/c is being produced by each factory, but, as you see, my DL is only 7/10 (only 1 recon plane operated over Harbin, while the other one was repairing). If you get a DL 10/10 you can tell what kind of engine or aircraft is produced.

So i think Micheal got it right

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 4180
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 2:43:08 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

what do u mean with "glutton for punishment"?


It means someone who is willing to endure great hardship when others would have given up long ago. It usually is used when someone is thought to be doing so foolishly, but you have turned that on its head and inspired the more literal use of the term in a sense of admiration.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 4181
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 2:45:42 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		BTW, GJ, thinking over those last bunch of ground combat results, you have had a few divisions worth of squads disabled. Are you sure you want to wear down your force so much before resting them? And resting them might allow Rader to think it a plausible defense that can be reinforced.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 4182
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 2:48:01 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		Most certainly meant to turn that phrase into one of admiration - you've seen the lowest of the lows & endured quite brutal campaigns without even a glimmer of a light at the end of the tunnel, but have turned adversity into an advantage (kicking in the back down while your opponent was guarding the front with a shotgun) and shown that through careful planning & the willingness to take a drubbing, that any situation can be turned around.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 4183
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 2:51:10 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Hokkaido Hurricane

Combine advice from other partygoers and Ketel One at a 2:1 ratio. Blend on high for 20 seconds. Add 2-3 shakes of Tobasco. Strain over ice and serve in a highball glass.

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 4184
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 2:53:59 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

BTW, GJ, thinking over those last bunch of ground combat results, you have had a few divisions worth of squads disabled. Are you sure you want to wear down your force so much before resting them? And resting them might allow Rader to think it a plausible defense that can be reinforced.


I will rest them now. I'm moving 4 divisions (the most battered ones) up to Sapporo where they will be aided by a couple of HQs. the rest will move on but won't attack for some time in order to get the majority of those disabled squad back into activity again.

However i really don't think Rader will use this halt to reinforce Hakkodate. He has already started the evacuation. I will LRCAP and keep on sending PTs and DDs to interdict this evacuation but i really think he's moving away from Okkaido

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 4185
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 2:54:54 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Let me clarify: in this screenshot you cannot tell which a/c is being produced by each factory, but, as you see, my DL is only 7/10 (only 1 recon plane operated over Harbin, while the other one was repairing). If you get a DL 10/10 you can tell what kind of engine or aircraft is produced.

So i think Micheal got it right


I disagree. One-Pass Pete can tell the difference between a Mavis and a Tojo. It's a cave-in to the JFBs.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 12/7/2011 6:31:55 PM >

_____________________________

The Moose

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Post #: 4186
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 3:00:54 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Most certainly meant to turn that phrase into one of admiration - you've seen the lowest of the lows & endured quite brutal campaigns without even a glimmer of a light at the end of the tunnel, but have turned adversity into an advantage (kicking in the back down while your opponent was guarding the front with a shotgun) and shown that through careful planning & the willingness to take a drubbing, that any situation can be turned around.


You make me flush

Thank you Paullus...much appreciated. But as i said many times, if it's a merit, this must be shared with all of you contributors and readers of this AAR. It's because of you and your encouragements that i managed to hold on during the grimm times and it's because of you if i managed to learn enough of this game to be able to get back from the dark side and see the light again.
So i consider this a kind of a community effort

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 4187
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 3:04:15 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Hokkaido Hurricane

Combine advice from other partygoers and Ketel One at a 2:1 ratio. Blend on high for 20 seconds. Add 2-3 shakes of Tobasco. Strain over ice and serve in a highball glass.


And those who really knows the secret of H.H. tend to add a little "bush of grass" on the edge of the highball glass

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4188
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 3:26:03 PM   
soticrandy

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Ok, so for the 3rd and 4th of May we will concentrate our effort in closing once for all Harbin a/c production.

220 B-24Js will be called into action for this mission. I equally distributed my bombers towards the different targets and all the industries should be hit.

I know it's not a "juicy target"...but at least is something we can start with untill we have enough 4Es to concentrate on Honshu.




Are you targeting more than the airframe factories? Because that would make it seem like you are still ignoring Nemos advice...

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 4189
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 3:28:37 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
You make me flush


Perhaps we can combine the flush with Miller's recent "makes me mad as hot piss" statement....

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 4190
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 3:52:17 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop


quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225


quote:

Miller, I have no experience with any of the Japanese production, so I'll have to take your word on it, but "boils my piss" is worthy of the forum Hall of Fame!


+1



+2

I'm wondering whether the boiling is in the bladder or externally. One hopes for the latter unless we're talking about your worst enemy.



Lol, its a common saying in northern England.........the polite meaning would be "I find it very annoying"


< Message edited by Miller -- 12/7/2011 4:47:14 PM >

(in reply to Cribtop)
Post #: 4191
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 4:00:39 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: soticrandy


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Ok, so for the 3rd and 4th of May we will concentrate our effort in closing once for all Harbin a/c production.

220 B-24Js will be called into action for this mission. I equally distributed my bombers towards the different targets and all the industries should be hit.

I know it's not a "juicy target"...but at least is something we can start with untill we have enough 4Es to concentrate on Honshu.




Are you targeting more than the airframe factories? Because that would make it seem like you are still ignoring Nemos advice...



No, i'm targeting ONLY the a/c factories. The rest of the damage is what has been taken out by the Fires lit up by our first mass fire bombing a couple of weeks ago

(in reply to soticrandy)
Post #: 4192
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 4:47:15 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Let me clarify: in this screenshot you cannot tell which a/c is being produced by each factory, but, as you see, my DL is only 7/10 (only 1 recon plane operated over Harbin, while the other one was repairing). If you get a DL 10/10 you can tell what kind of engine or aircraft is produced.

So i think Micheal got it right


I disagree. One-Pass Pete can tell the difference between a Mavis and a Tojo. It's a cave in to the JFBs.


Well, i have to disagree your disagreement :)

A picture taken from 30k feet of an industrial facility cannot tell you what kind of a/c they are producing inside.
Recons over Peenemunde (sp?!) could not tell if the germans were producing V-2s, FW 190s, Me 109s or whatever....

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 4193
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 4:55:08 PM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Let me clarify: in this screenshot you cannot tell which a/c is being produced by each factory, but, as you see, my DL is only 7/10 (only 1 recon plane operated over Harbin, while the other one was repairing). If you get a DL 10/10 you can tell what kind of engine or aircraft is produced.

So i think Micheal got it right


I disagree. One-Pass Pete can tell the difference between a Mavis and a Tojo. It's a cave in to the JFBs.


Well, i have to disagree your disagreement :)

A picture taken from 30k feet of an industrial facility cannot tell you what kind of a/c they are producing inside.
Recons over Peenemunde (sp?!) could not tell if the germans were producing V-2s, FW 190s, Me 109s or whatever....


In the specific case I agree, but in the more general case WW II intelligence services were not limited to a single source of information. They were quite capable, for example, of figuring out that most of Germany's ball bearing production came out of two major sites. They were dead wrong on German industry being unable to deal with a disruption of the same, but that's another issue :).

Point being I suppose that WWII bombing missions were not launched blind at "its an industrial facility somewhere near Berlin", then generlly knew what they were trying to hit from a variety of intelligence sources (humint, sigint, recon, etc).

The previous "perfect" intel was bonkers, but correcting down to "virtually no information" is equally wrong, just in the other direction imho.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 4194
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 4:59:49 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey



The previous "perfect" intel was bonkers, but correcting down to "virtually no information" is equally wrong, just in the other direction imho.


But now it's not like that. You just have to obtain a good detection level and you will know everything back again (even ho many Tojos are produced at Harbin monthly...which is quite unrealistic imho).

So i really do think this change is a good one and it doesn't favour the japs...it simply slows back an unrealistic ability the allies had before this beta

imho

(in reply to pat.casey)
Post #: 4195
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 5:02:21 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Ok, so for the 3rd and 4th of May we will concentrate our effort in closing once for all Harbin a/c production.

220 B-24Js will be called into action for this mission. I equally distributed my bombers towards the different targets and all the industries should be hit.

I know it's not a "juicy target"...but at least is something we can start with untill we have enough 4Es to concentrate on Honshu.




This is my first look at the FOW changes from the beta, and I don't like them. I've been working Harbin over in my game, and those aircraft factories are not of equal importance by far. I disagree that Allied aerial recon, particularly by 1944, couldn't tell what model plane was coming out of each plant. I think this is yet another realized JFB whine which pushes the game into a corner it should not be pushed into.



Yes, I agree. The Allies seemed pretty good a figuring out what factories were producing what. And, they pretty much knew how much damage they were doing and were aware when the factories were being (not) repaired. I imagine a lot of other intel came into play but don't really know for sure. The Japanese did make an effort to disperse production, but that was self defeating as well as it resulted in a loss of quality controll. The FOW should be somewhere in the middle of these two extremes.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 4196
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 5:08:28 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		I just realized i never told you anything more about the squadron (79th RAAF) i decided to follow.... well...since the squadron was equipped with australian Spits mkVIII and sent on the front line at PM...it never saw a single battle ...Rader never contested PM, nor my air dominion on the whole NG...so our beloved unit didn't have (and won't have) any chance to see a real combat.... the mothers of those RAAF pilots will be delighted...i am less

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 4197
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 5:12:36 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey



The previous "perfect" intel was bonkers, but correcting down to "virtually no information" is equally wrong, just in the other direction imho.


But now it's not like that. You just have to obtain a good detection level and you will know everything back again (even ho many Tojos are produced at Harbin monthly...which is quite unrealistic imho).

So i really do think this change is a good one and it doesn't favour the japs...it simply slows back an unrealistic ability the allies had before this beta

imho


I agree. As much as the Allies knew, it wasn't perfect, and came with many months and years of work. The German factories are a bit different than the ones in Japan as well, just because of the long time the Allies were able to get recon and intel about them, over many years. GJ has been looking at Harbin, for instance, for less than a month, and he already knows how many aircraft are being produces, even if the types are still not discovered. That's pretty good intel if you ask me.


(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 4198
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 6:31:24 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Ok, I know we are hijacking GJs AAR, but the Doolittle raiders had specific known targets to attack when they bombed Japan in 1942. Including oil storage facilties, a steel mill and power plants. The knowledge of these targets, I assume, was gained without any sort of recon. I would suspect that the Allies had an even clearer picture of potential targets by mid 1944.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 4199
RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 6:36:34 PM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Ok, I know we are hijacking GJs AAR, but the Doolittle raiders had specific known targets to attack when they bombed Japan in 1942. Including oil storage facilties, a steel mill and power plants. The knowledge of these targets, I assume, was gained without any sort of recon. I would suspect that the Allies had an even clearer picture of potential targets by mid 1944.


Did you watch the same movie last night my wife had on the tv while I happened to be in the same room?

_____________________________

Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 4200
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