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USSR war entry very early !

 
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USSR war entry very early ! - 12/13/2011 10:37:04 PM   
waichou

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		I have a big problem, I am only in June 1940 and USSR declared war on me ! My only "mistake" was to declare war against Norway and make pressure to Romania, which finally joins Axis the same turn. The reaction was immediat, USSR declares war. Is it normal ??

PS : maybe you could add a pop up message when a country declares war, I had nothing but the message where I have to chose the level for occupation (harch, ect.).

Thanks,
Post #: 1
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/13/2011 10:59:11 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Hi,

Such a message is on our to do list.

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(in reply to waichou)
Post #: 2
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 3:29:13 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		Don't mess with Romania.

Stalin considered that sacred.

Game does too.

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 3
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 10:46:21 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline 		Nice to see the game can launch surprises, except of course when you are on the receiving end.

_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to waichou)
Post #: 4
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 11:37:18 AM   
waichou

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, it may be fun sometimes, but it wasted my game in this case... I was not prepared for Barbarossa, if I knew this I wouldn't make pressure on Romania, DP are normally here to help, not to be in bad shape when using it... I think we could at least have a pop up to accept/refuse USSR land revendication in Romania, to avoid such situation. And the worst is that I can't go back, as the autosave is after the Italian turn, so impossible to do something, I have to restart a game... (I had only one save, now I we be more careful !)
I think you could change this in the futur patch (I don't think it's normal that USSR declares war so early, as I see their army seems to be not ready too...).

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 5
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 12:50:47 PM   
fvianello


Posts: 534
Joined: 8/6/2002
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: waichou

(I don't think it's normal that USSR declares war so early, as I see their army seems to be not ready too...).


If USSR took you by surprise and raped your eastern front troops, Stalin is right and you are wrong :)

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Surplus Consuls Dispatcher

(in reply to waichou)
Post #: 6
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 1:10:02 PM   
waichou

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe, but I don't think this is the reason. If I Romania didn't join me USSR wouldn't have declared war on me... And, between us, I think I can beat them (like the AAR you can read in another topic, he had the same problem but he devasted Russia because they were not ready...), and if I trust you why Russia, USA, etc. don't declare war in 1939, if they think they can beat me, not very historical... I understand the fact that it is an interesting challenge to have some "What if" scenario, but I am sure that in every game Romania will join me early because of pressure, USSR will declare war at the same time. But maybe I am wrong...

(in reply to fvianello)
Post #: 7
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 1:34:29 PM   
fvianello


Posts: 534
Joined: 8/6/2002
From: Italy
Status: offline 		If the USSR DOW keeps happening every time Romania joins Axis you're right, it becomes more a bug than a feature. I'm hoping the AI made also some evaluation on the general situation (troops deployed, number of countries with an efficient army still at war with germany, etc.) before deciding to declare war.

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Surplus Consuls Dispatcher

(in reply to waichou)
Post #: 8
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 2:09:10 PM   
waichou

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, it would be interesting to have the point of view of Doomtrader. I think Romania and Finland are 2 sensible countries which are too easily responsible of USSR DOW

(in reply to fvianello)
Post #: 9
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 3:10:41 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		The developers point of view about the gameplay is not always the best one. I'm just not able to play enough games to check that.
I'll take a look at that, but if you are reporting that Finland and Romania are causing Soviet-German war, a way to often, then this is not right for sure and there is no problem to adjust that.

_____________________________


(in reply to waichou)
Post #: 10
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 3:26:52 PM   
Anguille


Posts: 637
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Hyper-cruiser "Phantom"
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: waichou

Yes, it may be fun sometimes, but it wasted my game in this case... I was not prepared for Barbarossa, if I knew this I wouldn't make pressure on Romania, DP are normally here to help, not to be in bad shape when using it... I think we could at least have a pop up to accept/refuse USSR land revendication in Romania, to avoid such situation. And the worst is that I can't go back, as the autosave is after the Italian turn, so impossible to do something, I have to restart a game... (I had only one save, now I we be more careful !)
I think you could change this in the futur patch (I don't think it's normal that USSR declares war so early, as I see their army seems to be not ready too...).


Wouldn't be fun if it was too predictable...

_____________________________

Pushing it to the limits: an Armada 2526 AAR

(in reply to waichou)
Post #: 11
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 3:31:14 PM   
waichou

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, for Finland I can't be sure, but for Romania I think it is (if someone has the same feeling...).
After reading the AAR by Macroeconomics, it seems that USSR also declared war early for the same reason, I think it should be corriged, because now I am affraid to use my DP !

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 12
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 4:53:37 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		use the save game feature

(in reply to waichou)
Post #: 13
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 5:25:04 PM   
waichou

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		I would, but I played with one save only (I know this is stupid...), and unfortunatly the Autosave bring me to the Slovakia turn (last player for Axis...), and it's too late to cancel the Alliance...
I don't know if it's a good idea, but maybe the Autosave should be at the beginning of Axis turn, because most of time we want to go back AFTER the result of Allies turn (which is after all Axis countries turns), and it's not very useful to go back to the last minor country turn. But I am ok, it was stupid to have only one save for my game...

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 14
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 7:25:04 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		or you could call it a learning experience.. my first game.. reds attacked.. I too had not saved, but my invasion of France was poor so retarting was an easy choice..
the issue will be in server games, no way to retreat the game when plyers find a game breaking error they make.. BUT.. server games , to my suprise are so much easier to administrate the turns.. oops off topic..
good luck.. fyi reds are super weak in 39 and 40 

(in reply to waichou)
Post #: 15
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/14/2011 9:02:51 PM   
macroeconomics

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 7/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy
or you could call it a learning experience.. my first game.. reds attacked.. I too had not saved, but my invasion of France was poor so retarting was an easy choice..
the issue will be in server games, no way to retreat the game when plyers find a game breaking error they make.. BUT.. server games , to my suprise are so much easier to administrate the turns.. oops off topic..
good luck.. fyi reds are super weak in 39 and 40 


I sort of agree with this attitude. A lot of it is the pure shock value the USSR entry has on German players who have been trained over years of experience with other wargames that the USSR entering early is a death sentence. In ToF the Soviets already have their hands full with the minor they are attacking, so they can't really hurt the Germans that much in the first 6-12 months. What early USSR entry does IMO is double down on the France invasion results. If France can hold out until the Fall of 1940, or can inflict a ton of casualties on the Germans, then the Germans are probably dead. On the other hand if the Germans can plough through France on a reasonable time schedule with light losses (as was the case in my AAR game), then they should have the force structure to hurt the Soviets very rapidly.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 16
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/15/2011 12:55:35 AM   
waichou

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		I try continue my game, but it is still very curious... Ok, USSR declared war, but I had all the time to put my army and advance in russia, as they have a very poor army (most of cities are without garrison !) I don't see any opposition, maybe they are far far away in the mainland... (I have reach and decimated their airplanes this turn). And I just realized that Finland, which is in war with USSR since the beginning, has taken all cities between Leningrad and Novgorod, and are still advancing to Moscow !! I really don't understand the Soviet strategy (and I would add that it is very strange that Finland can beat USSR so easily !). I think there is a problem here, I will try another game but I want to be sure I will not have such surprises...

(in reply to macroeconomics)
Post #: 17
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/15/2011 1:47:44 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

The developers point of view about the gameplay is not always the best one. I'm just not able to play enough games to check that.
I'll take a look at that, but if you are reporting that Finland and Romania are causing Soviet-German war, a way to often, then this is not right for sure and there is no problem to adjust that.


I can definately confirm that a Russian attack on Romania IS causing a Russian-German war. Spring of '40 is when it usually occurs.

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 18
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/15/2011 2:26:13 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		Finland or Romania will only cause a war with Russia if you are aligned with them.

Don't influence either of those countries. It raises the Soviet Unions war entry. Then as Germany if you DOW too many countries you will be in an early war.

This is no Different than HOI / HOI2.

DP is short and your better off making sure you get the correct countries on your side.

Can influence work with Finland or Romania?

Yes, it can with Romania, but it is a timing issue and you have to be very careful. Most of them time you will get into a war with Russia.

Allot of this depends upon what the AI chooses as Russia or the Human player.

For Finland: I get then in the camp after they are in war with Russia and I am ready to DOW or are already in a war.

I have tried several times with Finland, but it isn't worth an alignment as it always drags you into a war.

You forget: Germany's actions causes WE to rise for all the allies.

Watch what you are doing and there won't be a problem with early war with Russia.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 19
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/15/2011 5:11:48 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline 		Romania was NOT even in the Axis when Russia declared war on them in my game. Yet Germany immeadeately is now at war with Russia. I did not do ANY DP on any Balken country either.

(in reply to Razz1)
Post #: 20
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/15/2011 6:04:46 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		What did you choose for Ribbentrop Molotov Pact?

I think this is everyone's problem.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 21
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/15/2011 6:15:00 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline 		I accepted it. and Russia moved into Eastern Poland as expected. I put around 50 strengh points on the border which I added to as time went on. Russia went to war with Findland (October/Nov?) and all was good until Spring of '40.

(in reply to Razz1)
Post #: 22
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/15/2011 10:49:08 AM   
waichou

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		Exactly the same for me. I only declared war to Poland, Benelux, Denmark and Norway (nothing done in Balkan or anywhere - no alliance with Finland which is neutral and AI controlled). If it is sufficient for Russia to declare war in spring 1940, I really don't understand. By the way, how is it possible to Finland to control Leningrad and 3 others cities including Novgorod, and seems to continue their advance to Moscow. I think there is a real problem with Russia, I don't see the interest of declaring war if they don't have a minimum strengh (I have no resistance from Russia in my front)...

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 23
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/15/2011 1:22:06 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

Finland or Romania will only cause a war with Russia if you are aligned with them.



It's not really working this way. I had a Soviet DoW in Sept. of 1940 despite leaving both Finland and Romania alone. I had pressured Hungary into joining the Axis, but I haven't touched these other two countries.

Near as I can tell Romania is autojoining the Axis when pressured by the Sovs, regardless of what the Germans do.

Mind you, the Red Army is a wreck with all the hits it gets in the first ten turns it is at war with Germany, so it's not going to go anywhere. But Germany has no control over this diplomatic outcome.

When playing the Soviets, strangely enough, this doesn't happen. As the Soviets I got a warning that Romania was resisting my demands for Bessarabia. I therefore declined to take it further. Then, mysteriously, they go ahead and give up Bessarabia anyways. This leads to the historical outcome with no premature war.

There's something decidedly odd with the scripting of this event. (From both the Soviet and the German perspective.) You should probably double check it.

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(in reply to Razz1)
Post #: 24
RE: USSR war entry very early ! - 12/15/2011 6:19:52 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
I accepted it. and Russia moved into Eastern Poland as expected. I put around 50 strengh points on the border which I added to as time went on. Russia went to war with Findland (October/Nov?) and all was good until Spring of '40.


After reading this thread and restarted 'Fall Gelb' (as Axis v AI), I ran into the Romania situation on turn 3 (It had not happened in the previous game), sat quiet, no provocation. Turn 4 and Soviet forces have crossed the demarcation line into Western Poland and bombing my units. Ouch !

Most the German forces are now deeply committed to the breakthrough in France, Italy has just entered the war (this didn't happen in the last game). Has the makings of a great game, historical, or not, but I wouldn't want it to happen every game. There's only so much excitement you can take, this early in a game.


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 25
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