RE: Blood in the skies

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RE: Blood in the skies - 12/12/2011 11:27:23 PM

jeffs

Posts: 644
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Tokyo
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Not sure if this makes sense (Nemo feel free to tell me it is a foolish division of firepower)....But have some of your bomber force (or even make it your 2E force) do a night bombing of the airfields of the hex you want to attack with your 4es...

Even if you do not kill all you will damage airframes and airfields (and as his best planes are often service of 3 they stay damaged a while) it will certainly surpress a decent amount of his fighters allowing you to glide right in....

And I do not know your HRs on bombing...But airfield bombing is not (by most players) considered city/strategic bombing so you can go in lower....

Nothing ruins your day like having your airforce get its butt kicked at night!

_____________________________

To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 4411

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/12/2011 11:29:53 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffs

Not sure if this makes sense (Nemo feel free to tell me it is a foolish division of firepower)....But have some of your bomber force (or even make it your 2E force) do a night bombing of the airfields of the hex you want to attack with your 4es...

Even if you do not kill all you will damage airframes and airfields (and as his best planes are often service of 3 they stay damaged a while) it will certainly surpress a decent amount of his fighters allowing you to glide right in....

And I do not know your HRs on bombing...But airfield bombing is not (by most players) considered city/strategic bombing so you can go in lower....

Nothing ruins your day like having your airforce get its butt kicked at night!

We have a rule for night bombing and the numbers of bombers at night in the air must be <or= to moon% and min alt 10k feet... so it's not a viable solution

(in reply to jeffs)

Post #: 4412

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/12/2011 11:31:58 PM

kfsgo

Posts: 446
Joined: 9/16/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator GR.VI: 8 destroyed, 2 damaged
F4U-1A Corsair: 3 destroyed

You may be aware of this, but just in case - the 'GR' you see on several UK/CW aircraft stands for 'General Reconnaissance' - they're really search/patrol models, with longer ranges than the standard aircraft and search radar, but generally have cut-down defensive armament and much lighter bombloads - Liberator GR.VI carries 2000lbs against 5000lbs of B.VI/regular B-24. GR.III removes armour entirely in exchange for very long range. Obviously you do what you need to do with them, since the RAF never does get all that many Liberators, but if you have the option of not flying them on these massed raids it might be worth thinking about.

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 4413

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/12/2011 11:35:57 PM

GreyJoy

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ouch.....

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 4414

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/12/2011 11:36:37 PM

Nemo121

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Jeffs,

Nothing will kill the IJAAF and IJNAF more quickly than continued targeted strikes on airframe factories which are producing fighters at present ( hitting R&D factories is a wasteful diversion of resources... if you hit 200 R&D factories which won't produce planes for 5 months you are basically "gifting" the Japanese 1,000 additional fighters over those 5 months which they can build from actually producing factories which you could have hit instead and stopped producing).

Night-time airfield attacks may kill some fighters etc ( whether or not there are HRs to outrule it ) but they won't do nearly the amount of damage needed to overcome Japanese new production and neither will they cause production to fall. As such I think you are better off just maintaining a laser-like focus on currently producing aircraft airframe factories ( a focus which, once again, has been lost ) since hitting airfields at night won't reduce the IJNAF and IJAAF fighter numbers - and thus won't actually achieve the stated strategic goal.

With that said Allied airpower is so overwhelming that even with significant misallocation it can still overpower the Japanese - as is happening here. However by this time after the initial landings Greyjoy had the capability to have remove all IJAAF and IJNAF fighter production capability entirely. The war should already be over.... but even with the inefficiencies the outcome isn't in doubt ---- especially as Rader is misallocating his primary strategic assets even more severely than GJ is misallocating his.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 12/12/2011 11:41:52 PM >

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 4415

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/12/2011 11:47:34 PM

jeffs

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From: Tokyo
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Thank you..

I guess my thinking here is simply that if 2Es can not directly attack into the daylight swarm...Maybe they could help prepare the by attacking in the night....You are right that no 4e should do so....

Valid point on empire misallocation...Hard to see what nuking Palmyra would do for Japan

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Post #: 4416

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/12/2011 11:58:28 PM

Nemo121

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jeffs,

The problem with using 2-engines is that they simply don't carry enough bombs to generate a useful number of hits given the various HRs and if used in an effective manner they'd immediately be HRed out of existence in this game. I've used Netties to close major US Airfields with daytime and night-time 100 feet strikes avoiding radar so it can be done but here it'd be HRed out of existence.

In their role as battlefield suppressors during daytime they do well - even given the HR.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to jeffs)

Post #: 4417

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 12:37:04 AM

GreyJoy

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Joined: 3/18/2011
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The Ki-83 isn't simply an R&R plane...given the amount of factories already at 100% that we found when we started to recon and given that it's scheldued to arrive in 11/44, i think we'll see it already this month.
That said the Ki201 factories were targetted only because we were hitting that city and it has only 3 factories (1 Ki-83 and 2 KI-201 ones)...if it wasn't so i would not have targetted KI-201 production.

I can handle the actual fighters that jap produce...what i fear are the ones with 30mm and faster than my own fighters (Shindens, KI-83 etc...)

Thx Kfsogo for the usefull info...i didn't noticed that!!

No sign of the KB...i keep all my sense activated cause i know Rader's up to something...i just don't know what and where...

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 4418

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 12:48:01 AM

jeffs

Posts: 644
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Tokyo
Status: offline

Hi Nemo,

I found the Beaufighters (but oooo so few in number) are really nasty at 100 feet for taking out
airfields (assuming you train the pilots on strafe)....When I guy has 500 fighters at one base one would hope
the effects of nailing the bases would be felt badly..

That said...This game seems like HR hell........

_____________________________

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Post #: 4419

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 12:49:07 AM

GreyJoy

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Joined: 3/18/2011
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And Nemo, i know you would have wanted me to start to strat bombing as soon as landed...but this is a brave new world for me and i needed some days to get confident with this new scenario. I've never been on the offensive throughout this whole game and it hasn't been that easy for me to shift from the defensive posture to an offensive one... so please be comprehensive to me

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 4420

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 12:52:06 AM

GreyJoy

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Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffs

That said...This game seems like HR hell........

Sincerly, after having played this game for more than 10 months i can easily tell you that, considering how strong the allies become from mid 43, HRs are a safe way to keep on having fun (both sides) throughout the whole game. Imho, obviously

(in reply to jeffs)

Post #: 4421

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 2:00:27 AM

JeffroK

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As a counter to Nemo's push for an out and out offensive against aircraft factories.

Some of those airfields with " a 1000 fighters" look ripe for an attack, maybe an occasional diversion to smash an airbase might find it easier to smash fighters on the ground which may allow your bombers an easier run next day which in turn might see factories hit harder.

At a minimum it keeps rader wondering, there might be some well stocked airbases in a base without/very little industry which he hasnt covered properly.

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Post #: 4422

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 8:26:33 AM

Galahad78

Posts: 386
Joined: 9/28/2009
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Thanks a lot for putting together this AAR Greyjoy, I'm slowly catching up (still 130 pages to go

), it's being quite entertaining. Thanks a lot also to all the contributors, as a -still- newbie (I've had my first grand campaign stopped for several RL months) I find your counsels to Greyjoy very interesting.

(in reply to JeffroK)

Post #: 4423

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 10:26:13 AM

GreyJoy

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Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Galahad78

Thanks a lot for putting together this AAR Greyjoy, I'm slowly catching up (still 130 pages to go�), it's being quite entertaining. Thanks a lot also to all the contributors, as a -still- newbie (I've had my first grand campaign stopped for several RL months) I find your counsels to Greyjoy very interesting.

Thanks to you for being here!

June 2, 3 1944

While Rader is moving huge amount of troops in northern Honshu (100,000 men spotted at Akita) and while my 4Es were resting, the action took place in the Solomons.
Rader is investing a lot of assets trying to relieve his lost garrisons at Russell and Thousands... gotta say that i don't understand why he's risking so much for some troops without any combat value...

However, we got another bloody nose.
He sent 4 CAs+2CLs+ 6 DDs to fast transport the garrison at Russell...we sent several PT TFs and a Cruiser Division composed of CL Releigh+CL Richmond (the only CL Detroit's sisters still alive) + 6 mixed DDs. Best leader and the exp of my ships was very good (having fought without solution thougout the whole war).
Our ships managed to suprise the enemy fast transport TF and we crossed the T....closed range...fired torpedoes...

Result? Japanese ships were untouched while we lost 2 CLs and 2 DDs....

However we made the jap CAs lose some precious Op points and the the day came they were still there at Russell and our SDBs attacked in several ways (for some reason my torpedo bombers at Lunga decided to stay playing cards

).
After a harsh fighting with his LRCAP (where our hellcats had the lower hand) our SDBs managed to score several 1000lb SAP hits on the jap Cruisers... hopefully one of them sunk (i heard the sound) and possibly the other four are badly damaged....anyway...they're still there...so tomorrow what's left of our surface force in SOPAC (CL Leander and CL Gambia) will chase them down in their retgreat path...let's see if i can get any luck!

Japanese Sub finally appeared near Seattle, sinking a british TK....while our first convoys are starting to unload at Bihoro and Huruppo

Have to decide which factory to be hit tomorrow in our strat bomb campaign. Think i'll go with a light bombing raid...possibly less than 300 bombers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Russell Islands at 113,136, Range 12,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
SOC-1 Seagull: 3 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Atago, Shell hits 1
CA Chokai, Shell hits 3
CA Mikuma, Shell hits 2
CA Kumano, Shell hits 1
DD Fujinami, Shell hits 1
DD Kiyonami, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Hamanami
DD Asashimo
DD Tanikaze
DD Natsugumo
CL Teshio
CL Ninaru, Shell hits 1
DD Hikokaze, Shell hits 1
DD Kosukaze, Shell hits 1, on fire

Allied Ships
CL Richmond, Shell hits 18, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Raleigh, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Walke
DD Blue
DD Helm, Shell hits 2
DD Jarvis, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
DD Dunlap, Shell hits 12, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Conyngham, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Improved night sighting under 85% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 85% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 12,000 yards
Gardner D. crosses the 'T'
CL Ninaru engages CL Raleigh at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CL Richmond at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai engages DD Conyngham at 12,000 yards
CL Raleigh engages CA Atago at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai engages DD Jarvis at 12,000 yards
CL Teshio engages CL Raleigh at 12,000 yards
DD Kosukaze engages DD Jarvis at 12,000 yards
DD Conyngham engages DD Hikokaze at 12,000 yards
DD Tanikaze engages DD Jarvis at 12,000 yards
DD Hamanami engages DD Conyngham at 12,000 yards
DD Fujinami engages DD Conyngham at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards
CL Raleigh engages CA Kumano at 6,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages CL Richmond at 6,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CL Raleigh at 6,000 yards
DD Fujinami engages DD Dunlap at 6,000 yards
CL Ninaru engages CL Raleigh at 6,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Tanikaze at 6,000 yards
DD Kosukaze engages DD Jarvis at 6,000 yards
DD Hikokaze engages DD Jarvis at 6,000 yards
DD Conyngham engages DD Natsugumo at 6,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Asashimo at 6,000 yards
DD Conyngham engages DD Hamanami at 6,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Helm at 6,000 yards
DD Fujinami engages DD Conyngham at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 4,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Raleigh at 4,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages CL Raleigh at 4,000 yards
DD Kosukaze engages DD Conyngham at 4,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages CA Atago at 4,000 yards
DD Fujinami engages DD Jarvis at 4,000 yards
Massive explosion on CL Raleigh
CL Teshio engages CL Raleigh at 4,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Blue at 4,000 yards
DD Tanikaze engages DD Helm at 4,000 yards
DD Hamanami engages DD Helm at 4,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Conyngham at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Raleigh at 3,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages CL Raleigh at 3,000 yards
CL Raleigh sunk by CA Chokai at 3,000 yards
Magazine explodes on DD Jarvis
DD Jarvis sunk by DD Tanikaze at 3,000 yards
DD Kosukaze engages DD Helm at 3,000 yards
DD Walke engages DD Hikokaze at 3,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Conyngham at 3,000 yards
DD Tanikaze engages DD Conyngham at 3,000 yards
DD Hamanami engages DD Walke at 3,000 yards
DD Walke engages DD Fujinami at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Richmond at 2,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages CL Richmond at 2,000 yards
DD Hikokaze engages DD Dunlap at 2,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Kosukaze at 2,000 yards
CL Richmond engages CL Ninaru at 2,000 yards
CL Teshio engages DD Walke at 2,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Hikokaze at 2,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Dunlap at 2,000 yards
DD Tanikaze engages DD Helm at 2,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Dunlap at 2,000 yards
DD Fujinami engages DD Dunlap at 2,000 yards
Task forces break off...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Russell Islands at 113,136, Range 12,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Atago
CA Mikuma
CA Kumano
DD Fujinami
DD Kiyonami
DD Hamanami
DD Asashimo
DD Tanikaze
DD Natsugumo
CL Teshio
CL Ninaru
DD Hikokaze

Allied Ships
DD Blue, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Russell Islands at 113,136

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 75 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 34
Ki-84a Frank x 19

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 14
F6F-3 Hellcat x 76
SBD-5 Dauntless x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 4 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 6 destroyed
SBD-5 Dauntless: 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
CA Mikuma, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Teshio
CA Kumano
DD Natsugumo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Atago, Bomb hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Russell Islands at 113,136

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 17
Ki-84a Frank x 8

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 14
F4U-1A Corsair x 12
F6F-3 Hellcat x 53
SBD-3 Dauntless x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 5 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Bomb hits 1, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Russell Islands at 113,136

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 76 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 19
Ki-84a Frank x 15

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 11
F6F-3 Hellcat x 54
SBD-5 Dauntless x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 7 destroyed
SBD-5 Dauntless: 2 damaged
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CA Mikuma, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CA Kumano, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Hamanami
DD Fujinami

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA Mikuma
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA Kumano

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Russell Islands at 113,136

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 70 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 8
Ki-84a Frank x 9

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 13
F4U-1A Corsair x 22
F6F-3 Hellcat x 31
SBD-3 Dauntless x 29

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 3 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CA Atago, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CA Chokai, Bomb hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Ninaru

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA Chokai

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Munda at 110,136

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 31 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84a Frank x 5

Allied aircraft
A-24B Banshee x 15
F6F-3 Hellcat x 19

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
A-24B Banshee: 1 damaged
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
DD Kosukaze, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage

(in reply to Galahad78)

Post #: 4424

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 1:59:29 PM

JohnDillworth

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Joined: 3/19/2009
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quote:

CL Richmond, Shell hits 18, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Raleigh, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Too late now but I don't think the 6" guns on these CL's would ever penetrate a Jap CA's armor. Rate of fire is slow too. The Boise-like CL's are a different story and were feared by the Japanese who called them "machine-gun cruisers". Someone else once mentioned that old ships and news ships to do not make great task forces. Point is these old CL's should not be in the same ocean as a Jap CA. Can't figure out what he is up to with these valuable ships still in the Solomons. Probable keeping them out of harms way. 1,000 lb bombs, on the other hand, will mess them up. I'd suggest dripping a couple of modern CA's or BB's but whats the point? Doesn't matter what happens here. Best Rader can hope for is to pull out a couple of divisions. Not worth risking his CA's for. Looks like you might have got one or 2 or at least put them in th yard for a lot longer than this game might go on for. Can't figure this out or what his CV's are hanging around

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 4425

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 3:00:42 PM

jeffk3510

Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline

Omaha class CLs are good for things that do not involve combat.

_____________________________

Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)

Post #: 4426

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 3:56:44 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffs

Hi Nemo,

I found the Beaufighters (but oooo so few in number) are really nasty at 100 feet for taking out
airfields (assuming you train the pilots on strafe)....When I guy has 500 fighters at one base one would hope
the effects of nailing the bases would be felt badly..

That said...This game seems like HR hell........

I did some testing early this year and found that fighters going in at 100 feet against any base with decent AA defenses were just going to get chewed up. Since then, in one of the betas, I see it has been changed so that attack bombers will now strafe and suppress bases. However, I don't think fighters or fighter bombers will-which is regrettable. However, any plane, even attack bombers, going in at 100 feet is going to get whacked pretty hard.

Unless, you are willing to send hundreds at that level and take the losses. They may then suppress the field in one attack-making it worth it.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to jeffs)

Post #: 4427

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 4:06:21 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

CL Richmond, Shell hits 18, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Raleigh, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Too late now but I don't think the 6" guns on these CL's would ever penetrate a Jap CA's armor. Rate of fire is slow too. The Boise-like CL's are a different story and were feared by the Japanese who called them "machine-gun cruisers". Someone else once mentioned that old ships and news ships to do not make great task forces. Point is these old CL's should not be in the same ocean as a Jap CA. Can't figure out what he is up to with these valuable ships still in the Solomons. Probable keeping them out of harms way. 1,000 lb bombs, on the other hand, will mess them up. I'd suggest dripping a couple of modern CA's or BB's but whats the point? Doesn't matter what happens here. Best Rader can hope for is to pull out a couple of divisions. Not worth risking his CA's for. Looks like you might have got one or 2 or at least put them in th yard for a lot longer than this game might go on for. Can't figure this out or what his CV's are hanging around

Well they are also good at what they just did. That is, drawing superior Japanese forces into a fight and using up OP points so that your bombers can hit them the next day. In the end, I think GJ got just what he needed. Two or three irreplaceable Japanese ships for some less important Allied.

Although, I know GJ has already suffered a lot of ship losses, the flow of Allied reinforcment CLs in the last two years is very good so I would not regret it. The other thing at this point of the game is that Rader is soon going to run out of safe shipyards to park and reapair damaged ships. Perhaps Singapore or the DEI but not much longer.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

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Post #: 4428

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 4:31:04 PM

Crackaces

Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline

Just a question .. is the point of the air power debate if in scenario #2 the Allies focus a sizable bit of strategic/fighter airpower within range of the home islands and the IJ concentrates thier fighter defenses in mid-1944 ...that the IJ will win the war of attrition? or is the debate getting the assests in range is only one piece.. one precise strategy allows this to work?

One theme I am picking up is typcally the Allies have lots of targets to attack (meaning DEI, Phillpines, Marinnas, Formosa, Burma .) forcing the IJ to defend a broad front that the allies easily project concentrated power .. now GreyJoy is facing concentrated IJ vs. Concentrated Allies and its very bloody ..is the difference?

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 4429

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 6:02:41 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

Omaha Class CLs have torpedoes. I wasn't relying on their 6 inch guns (even if they should be able to hit a damned DD or even the enemy CL with that) but on their fishes....while, even at 3000 yards, they seem absolutely inept in using the torps

Oh well, CrSutton is right....i probably took off 2 CAs with that combined air and naval effort and that is really a good prize to win in the expense of 2 Old CLs...

However remains a mistery Why Raders want's so badly those fragments at Russell...

In the air we lost 40 Hellcats and overall 96 planes against his 40...a bad ratio today but it was well worth

Tomorrow will be bloody again. Utsomynia (1 hex southeast of Tokyo). 243 Franks are being produced there.
We expect the usual deadly CAP.... No LRCAP ordered today. Only sweeps. The Corsairs-1As will stay home while the Corsairs 1 will escort. P.47s and P-38s will sweep like there's no tomorrow

(in reply to Crackaces)

Post #: 4430

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 7:15:00 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Just a question .. is the point of the air power debate if in scenario #2 the Allies focus a sizable bit of strategic/fighter airpower within range of the home islands and the IJ concentrates thier fighter defenses in mid-1944 ...that the IJ will win the war of attrition? or is the debate getting the assests in range is only one piece.. one precise strategy allows this to work?

One theme I am picking up is typcally the Allies have lots of targets to attack (meaning DEI, Phillpines, Marinnas, Formosa, Burma .) forcing the IJ to defend a broad front that the allies easily project concentrated power .. now GreyJoy is facing concentrated IJ vs. Concentrated Allies and its very bloody ..is the difference?

Well, Japanese production is the issue. In scen #2 and with PDU on the Japanese player has a lot of flexibility and can really crank out the aircraft. But as for the war of attrition-even with initial superiority in numbers Rader can't prevent GJ from getting hits on his aircraft factories. This is what will ultimately do Rader in. The bombers are going to get through and kill factories, and as a result Rader will eventually run short of fighters. Once the fighters are gone, then GJ will have pretty much a free run anywhere on the map. He is not just putting fighters and bombers over the target and slaughtering Rader's aircraft for no gain. Hitting the factories at the same time is future money in the bank.

Unless it is too late in the game, when the Allied put strategic bombers in range of Japanese factories, it is pretty much game over. GJ has done it very early and very effectively. I don't see Rader getting out from under this.

The way I see it, the Allies have to look to one of two aims in the contest. The traditional move would be to cut off the supply of oil to Japan. The other is a quick move to put bombers in range of Japan. GJ has done the later. The oil supply probably does not matter so much now.

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Post #: 4431

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 7:51:31 PM

Crackaces

Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Just a question .. is the point of the air power debate if in scenario #2 the Allies focus a sizable bit of strategic/fighter airpower within range of the home islands and the IJ concentrates thier fighter defenses in mid-1944 ...that the IJ will win the war of attrition? or is the debate getting the assests in range is only one piece.. one precise strategy allows this to work?

One theme I am picking up is typcally the Allies have lots of targets to attack (meaning DEI, Phillpines, Marinnas, Formosa, Burma .) forcing the IJ to defend a broad front that the allies easily project concentrated power .. now GreyJoy is facing concentrated IJ vs. Concentrated Allies and its very bloody ..is the difference?

Well, Japanese production is the issue. In scen #2 and with PDU on the Japanese player has a lot of flexibility and can really crank out the aircraft. But as for the war of attrition-even with initial superiority in numbers Rader can't prevent GJ from getting hits on his aircraft factories. This is what will ultimately do Rader in. The bombers are going to get through and kill factories, and as a result Rader will eventually run short of fighters. Once the fighters are gone, then GJ will have pretty much a free run anywhere on the map. He is not just putting fighters and bombers over the target and slaughtering Rader's aircraft for no gain. Hitting the factories at the same time is future money in the bank.

Unless it is too late in the game, when the Allied put strategic bombers in range of Japanese factories, it is pretty much game over. GJ has done it very early and very effectively. I don't see Rader getting out from under this.

The way I see it, the Allies have to look to one of two aims in the contest. The traditional move would be to cut off the supply of oil to Japan. The other is a quick move to put bombers in range of Japan. GJ has done the later. The oil supply probably does not matter so much now.

Ok .. I thought maybe something special about Scenrario #2 and PDU=on makes a strategic attack like this not worth the losses. Certainly a lot more assests are avaiiable in '45, but I have been thinking since day one of this invasion that the Allies have enough mid '44 to overcome the most stubborn of fighter defenses as long as the Allies remain focused and comitted to the strategy. I susepct it the loss of factories will appear suddenly when losses are not replaced.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 4432

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 8:26:52 PM

Smeulders

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline

Is Radar repairing the factories ? And for the Japanese players out there, how should a good supply stockpile in the HI look like at the moment ?

(in reply to Crackaces)

Post #: 4433

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/13/2011 8:50:49 PM

JeffroK

Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline

Rader is investing a lot of assets trying to relieve his lost garrisons at Russell and Thousands... gotta say that i don't understand why he's risking so much for some troops without any combat value...

However, we got another bloody nose.
He sent 4 CAs+2CLs+ 6 DDs to fast transport the garrison at Russell...we sent several PT TFs and a Cruiser Division composed of CL Releigh+CL Richmond (the only CL Detroit's sisters still alive) + 6 mixed DDs. Best leader and the exp of my ships was very good (having fought without solution thougout the whole war).
Our ships managed to suprise the enemy fast transport TF and we crossed the T....closed range...fired torpedoes...

Result? Japanese ships were untouched while we lost 2 CLs and 2 DDs....

If they are of no value why not let him take them, this might be a better job for aircraft, mines and subs than your surface fleet.
Maybe he thinks he can attrit your combat fleets in the south forcing you to divert something from the north, after all, he pretty well knows exactly what your shipping numbers are.
His commitment of 4 CA shows he is serious, or just trying to provoke you into a major diversion. Maybe KB in the south has been scouting for a nice OZ or NZ target?? Maybe a "Battle of the Bulge" last fling.

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Post #: 4434

RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/13/2011 9:36:49 PM

krupp_88mm

Posts: 406
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline

well if there's one thing i know about rader he likes to be audacious, and it seems you have out-audacioused him, maybe hes planning payback? are seattle and los angelas secure?

< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 12/13/2011 9:37:49 PM >

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Post #: 4435

RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/13/2011 11:13:04 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

Jun 4, 5 1944

Not a good turn.

A night Betties attack delivered a torp into BC Renown at hakodate...no air cover...my fault

Had all my NFs at Bihoro, Uruppu and Etorofu...

Then his CAs were still well afloat

and my NZ Cruisers didn't achieve anything of any value...the enemy ships went away far away my air range when the day came....

Then over Utsonymia our sweeps went in in 24 different missions....coordination was terrible as ever.... we suffered badly in terms of fighters...
Luckly enough our bombers managed to wipe out a large portion of the enemy Frank factories.

Our 2Es bombed Aika and plastered the Airfield, along with the ground troops

Anyway...i keep on having HEAVY synch problems...my replay is always waayyy out...

can't find a way to solve this problem...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Russell Islands at 113,136, Range 12,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Atago, Shell hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Mikuma, Shell hits 6
CA Kumano, Shell hits 7
DD Fujinami, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Kiyonami, Shell hits 3
DD Hamanami
DD Asashimo, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Tanikaze, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Teshio, Shell hits 4
CL Ninaru, Shell hits 5, heavy fires
DD Hikokaze, Shell hits 2, on fire

Allied Ships
CL Gambia
CL Leander, Shell hits 5, heavy fires
DD DeHaven
DD Fullam
DD Hutchins
DD LaVallette
DD McKee, Shell hits 1
DD Nicholas
DD Terry

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Hachinohe at 118,55 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

149 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BC Renown, Shell hits 4
CA Exeter
CA Louisville
CA Portland
CL Denver
DD Uhlmann
DD William Porter
DD Picking
DD McCord
DD Marshall
DD Luce, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Longshaw

Japanese ground losses:
123 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 14 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Manpower hits 2
Fires 144
Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 12
Port hits 7
Port supply hits 2

I'll post some of the sweep uncoordinated missions...

...just some of them...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Utsonomiya , at 115,60

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 39,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 54
J2M3 Jack x 45
N1K1-J George x 217
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 227
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 18
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 37
Ki-84a Frank x 40
Ki-100-I Tony x 29
Ki-102b Randy x 15

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIc Nick: 1 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 3 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Utsonomiya , at 115,60

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 17 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 47
J2M3 Jack x 37
N1K1-J George x 178
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 197
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 14
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 31
Ki-84a Frank x 32
Ki-100-I Tony x 31
Ki-102b Randy x 12

Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 4 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Utsonomiya , at 115,60

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 24
J2M3 Jack x 13
N1K1-J George x 124
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 126
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 6
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 15
Ki-84a Frank x 24
Ki-100-I Tony x 11
Ki-102b Randy x 6

Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-102b Randy: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 5 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Utsonomiya , at 115,60

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 35 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 9
J2M3 Jack x 1
N1K1-J George x 64
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 47
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 2
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 5
Ki-84a Frank x 14
Ki-100-I Tony x 3

Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIc Nick: 1 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akita , at 117,55

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 5
Mosquito FB.VI x 6
Wellington GR.XIII x 16
B-25C Mitchell x 16
B-25D1 Mitchell x 15
B-25G Mitchell x 34
B-25H Mitchell x 46
P-40N5 Warhawk x 12
PBJ-1D Mitchell x 45

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 1 damaged
B-25G Mitchell: 1 damaged
B-25H Mitchell: 5 damaged
PBJ-1D Mitchell: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
400 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 19 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 42 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 48 (4 destroyed, 44 disabled)

Airbase hits 18
Airbase supply hits 7
Runway hits 54

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Utsonomiya , at 115,60

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 1
N1K1-J George x 34
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 4
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 1
Ki-84a Frank x 1
Ki-100-I Tony x 1

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 43
B-24J Liberator x 292
F4U-1 Corsair x 49
F4U-1A Corsair x 23
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 45

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-45 KAIc Nick: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1 Corsair: 3 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed

Ki-84r Frank factory hits 20
Ki-84r Frank factory hits 7
Ki-84b Frank factory hits 13

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Utsonomiya , at 115,60

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 13
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 3

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 9
B-24J Liberator x 5

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 1 damaged

Ki-84r Frank factory hits 2
Ki-84b Frank factory hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Utsonomiya , at 115,60

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 30 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 13
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 1

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 9

No Japanese losses

No Allied losses

Ki-84b Frank factory hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on TF, near Hakodate at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 43 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 5 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
BC Renown, Torpedo hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Paramushiro-jima at 137,47 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-15-II Babs: 1 destroyed on ground

37 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB Queen Elizabeth, Shell hits 6
BB Mississippi
BB New Mexico
BB Idaho
BB Colorado

Japanese ground losses:
706 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 18 destroyed, 36 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 8 disabled

Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 49
Port hits 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Utsonomiya , at 115,60

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 8
J2M3 Jack x 11
N1K1-J George x 76
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 58
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 3
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 11
Ki-84a Frank x 15
Ki-100-I Tony x 31

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 56
B-24J Liberator x 232
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 7
F4U-1 Corsair x 45
F4U-1A Corsair x 26
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 39

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
F4U-1 Corsair: 4 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 4 destroyed
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 destroyed

Ki-84r Frank factory hits 3
Ki-84r Frank factory hits 6
Ki-84b Frank factory hits 5

(in reply to krupp_88mm)

Post #: 4436

RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/14/2011 12:14:33 AM

Schlemiel

Posts: 154
Joined: 10/20/2011
Status: offline

CA Chokai, the most damaged one, undoubtedly sank the day before, along with DD Kosukage. If either had survived, some additional DDs would have been detached with them for escort purposes. Because the other ships remained together, CA Chokai and DD Kosukage sank and therefore no escort needed to be detached per the algorithm (as far as I've seen, at least 1 healthy escort is always detached if a ship is afloat at the end of the turn). The fact the Japanese escaped after means CA Atagi is also dead (it was heavily damaged yesterday and heavily on fire today, it would not have the speed to escape and was likely a goner anyway). In all likelihood, DD Natsugumo joined it on the bottom as well (heavy fires, heavy damage). Don't get too down on yourself about that. Two sunk CAs and the rest needing precious shipyard time is a nice victory, in addition to at least 1-2 dead destroyers. There's also a chance CL Ninaru may sink on the way back to safety, though I wouldn't bet any money on that.

Also my guess is the damage won't be too bad on Renown. You may not even need to retire it from theatre.

All in all, a few minor mistakes aside, I"d say it is likely a good turn with the factory damage and the intel on what actually sank.

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 4437

RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/14/2011 12:21:06 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

sorry guys...too tired to update tonight...

Sclemiel...you are right. Rader confirmed that 3 CAs sunk during these 4 days battle!!!
Also recon says we got more than 150 frank production out of the equation...not bad

Losses were tremendous...174 for me (mainly fighters) and 330 for him... 75 pilots gone...

Renown has, in fact, very little damage (15 sys and 6 flt) and can remain in line. Night CAP detached.

Tomorrow i'll try to be more present...

Night guys...

(in reply to Schlemiel)

Post #: 4438

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/14/2011 1:37:15 AM

cwDeici

Posts: 70
Joined: 12/6/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

As a counter to Nemo's push for an out and out offensive against aircraft factories.

Some of those airfields with " a 1000 fighters" look ripe for an attack, maybe an occasional diversion to smash an airbase might find it easier to smash fighters on the ground which may allow your bombers an easier run next day which in turn might see factories hit harder.

At a minimum it keeps rader wondering, there might be some well stocked airbases in a base without/very little industry which he hasnt covered properly.

Is this realistic? Did the US prosecute the war poorly, for it to have ended in 45?

Also, if Rader wants to make silly moves with his navy it should at least be to risk them in a strike against allied carriers (which I'm sure are very well protected and a bad idea to attack). It's -EV too, but a series of naval miracles are probably the most likely shot at survival.

< Message edited by cwDeici -- 12/14/2011 1:57:58 AM >

(in reply to JeffroK)

Post #: 4439

RE: Blood in the skies - 12/14/2011 3:26:29 AM

pat.casey

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cwDeici

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

As a counter to Nemo's push for an out and out offensive against aircraft factories.

Some of those airfields with " a 1000 fighters" look ripe for an attack, maybe an occasional diversion to smash an airbase might find it easier to smash fighters on the ground which may allow your bombers an easier run next day which in turn might see factories hit harder.

At a minimum it keeps rader wondering, there might be some well stocked airbases in a base without/very little industry which he hasnt covered properly.

Is this realistic? Did the US prosecute the war poorly, for it to have ended in 45?

Also, if Rader wants to make silly moves with his navy it should at least be to risk them in a strike against allied carriers (which I'm sure are very well protected and a bad idea to attack). It's -EV too, but a series of naval miracles are probably the most likely shot at survival.

Its Scenario 2, so its not supposed to be realistic, its a ++Japanese scenario.
Additionally, they're playing with PDU on and Japanese production on, both of which let a human player use hindsight to produce only the most effective Japanese airframes in high volume, concentrate research on only the "good stuff" and shift industrial production around to optimize the airforce.

The US, on the other hand, gets the historica in-theatre aircraft arrivals regardless of the situation on the map.

(in reply to cwDeici)

Post #: 4440