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?'s about the japanese

 
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?'s about the japanese - 1/11/2001 11:42:00 AM   
walbers

 

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i'm playing a computer generated 4.0 campaign against far east forces, primarily the japanese. #1-japanese never retreat, never disperse, never surrender. I suppose this mirrors real life to some degree but it means you absolutely have to eradicate each unit to get somewhere. any suggestions or comments? #2-god forbid you get the Japanese on the defense. if they are entrenched in fortified positions they are nearly impossible to dig out as they never seem to break or rout when entrenched in bunkers. nothing worse than seeing nothing but 2% to hit when you are in an adjacent hex. and suggestions or comments? #3-when playing campaign and you stop and save in the middle of a scenario, when you start again, the opposing forces have DOUBLED and now you are faced with eliminating squads of up to 40+ soldiers. Any suggestons or comments on this apparent bug? I saw a thread earlier today on this but it wasn't very insightful. #4-victory conditions in a computer generated campaign seem ridiculous....just about the only way to get a decisive victory is to play the Nationalist Chinese and wipe out their force in 5 turns with virtually no loss to your units....if you get a draw against the japanese then you are damn lucky. any comments or suggestions? thanks for your insights.... rgds, will albers

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- 1/11/2001 12:05:00 PM   
Bonzo

 

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#1 - feature of national characteristics on preference screen. Turn it off for an easier time. #2 - See #1. Also use artillery to soften them up first. #3 - probably a function of the "Reduced Squads" on the preference screen. turn off reduced squads before you start, or, to enjoy reduced squads, have reduced squads on until just after you start the scenario, then turn them off. #4 - The above, a little luck & a lot of experience & things will change for you. ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters Main http://nwbattalion.tripod.com E-mail [email]nwbattalion@icqmail.com[/email]

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- 1/11/2001 1:59:00 PM   
Pack Rat

 

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Suppress them. Engineers work well against them, flame tanks if you can get them. Tanks bristling with machine guns are good, but let your recon or infantry find them first. If you're playing a defense, machine guns are a must, screen these with infantry and use tanks to plug holes. Playing defense against the Japanese were some of my best battles. Have fun and try a pbem for even more fun. ------------------ Your mine is a terrible thing to lose. Pack Rat

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Post #: 3
- 1/11/2001 3:48:00 PM   
Viriato

 

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hello all . these features are probably very accurate ,the japonese soldier had not much initiative but was fanatical when ordered , remember the stories of the wonded that waited for the allied medics to close and the blew themselfs up , or the very low number of jap pow taken during the frist 4 years of WWII , and the banzai charges . to play against the jap army is one of the most chalenging things you can do , so , good luck ... ------------------ A sorte protege os audazes

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Post #: 4
- 1/11/2001 6:51:00 PM   
Fredde

 

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Use an infantry unit to make the first shot, then the japs will fire back and expose themselves for fire from your other units. Great way to get rid of that 2% hit chance Move around them if possible.. when you captured enough victory hexes they will come for you instead (movement to force the enemy to react on you instead and let you fight defensively is a great strategy/tactic both for real and in wargames).

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Post #: 5
- 1/11/2001 9:58:00 PM   
Peregrine Falcon

 

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This may be historical babble, but here it goes.. It was codes of Bushido (ancient 'Code of the Warrior') that ruled Japanese soldiers, and more importantly, their oath to the Emperor. If you allowed yourself to became POW, it was regarded as the ultimate shame, you lost all your value as a person. (this was one reason why Allied POW's suffered so much in Japanese POW camps) Very few Japanese prisoners were taken when USA did their 'Island hopping' through the Pacific. FEW FACTS (accurate enough): Betio - 4800 troops, less than 150 surrendered (3300 US.casualties) Peleliu - 6500 troops, 300 surrendered (most were laborers) (6500 US.casualties) Saipan - 22000/6690 Army/Navy troops, 1780 prisoners (13000 US.casualties) I think I dont need to mention battles like Iwo Jima and Okinawa... What is true in WWII history, is partially true in SPWAW. Only way to defeat Japanese troops, is to use flamethrowers, heavy CS-equipment & naval artillery (but just like in Betio, that did not work as it should. Japanese troops were inside very tough bunkers and fortifications)

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- 1/11/2001 10:23:00 PM   
Major_Johnson

 

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You know, I read somewhere that for the longest time the Japanese treated their prisoners the best, but then at the turn of the century (19th) something changed they became barbaric. Anyone know anything about this?? ------------------ MJ We serve others best when at the same time we serve ourselves.

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Post #: 7
- 1/11/2001 10:45:00 PM   
lnp4668

 

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USMC tends to have good fire power at close range. If you could pin down the Japanese, move the marine to 1 hex range then pound with everything you have. I actually think that Japanese's inability to retreat more of a liability than asset. Once they are pinned, they are gone unless being rescue by another squad.

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Post #: 8
- 1/11/2001 11:21:00 PM   
mogami


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Hi, Japan was the first country to use machine guns in war (versus Russia 1904-1905) unfortunatly for them that was their last innovation in land warfare. The model 38 rifle was first issued in 1911 (the 38th year of the emperour Mejii (hence the 38 in it's name) After Hirohito became ruler they switched the naming method to month and year hence the "Zero" in 1940. The myth persits to this day that somehow the Japanese were good jungle fighters, fanatic fighters who refused to surrender. The truth is they were poorly equipped/trained for the jungle and died by the thousands as a result and were more then willing to surrender but the offer was rarly accepted by the Marines/US Army units they fought. (not that a Japanese officer would let them, so it was first nessacary to have no officer) The type 38 rifle is over 5 feet long the average japanese soldier was 5' 3" so they were trained to shoot in a squatting or kneeing position. Some idea of doctrine can be gleaned from the fact that all Japanese light machine guns were equipped with bayonets!!! The Japanese soldier did not fight with the code of Bushido (his officer did) He followed the Japanese custom of following the superiour and doing what he was told. The Japaese command believed the "will" to win was better then any equippment (al la France 1914) Starting in 1904 this resulted in heavy lossess during infantry assualts that the IJA never worried about. Faced in WWII with modern opponents the IJA had almost no chance (they did not bother to even start working on an infantry anti tank weapon till late in the war) In SPWaW you sometimes have to chase down your opponent to kill him versus the Japanese just sit still they will come to you. The secret is firepower. The Japanese infantry en mass can scare the crap out of you if you go without the support weapons (arty/air) or get caught 1 squad at a time. But if you mass your heaver/superiour weapons they die pretty fast. On defense they are tough nuts (as indeed they were)Do not go in a hurry. Arty can suppress them but a Japanese unit never retreats/surrenders so if you stop suppressing them they recover. move an engineer (with a AFV in support) covered by heavy machineguns up to each Japanese unit you find (after really suppressing them) and flame on, they will sit there intill you kill them, but watch out for other units coming out of no where. No other country in history has ever had to endure the total loss of some many combat formations. In the Japanese military suicide missions land/sea/air were not volunteer. ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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- 1/12/2001 12:36:00 AM   
Grumble

 

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"In the Japanese military suicide missions land/sea/air were not volunteer" Not entirely accurate. The actual "Kamikaze" were Naval air forces stationed in the Phillippines. These WERE volunteers, and remained so until the middle of the Okinawa campaign. In fact, Adm Onishi who developed the idea was so distraught by the idea of non-volunteers he officially complained to the Army high-command (whose "Special Attackers" were not volunteers). As far as Bushido, yes technically only officers were fully indocrinated. HOWEVER, as part of the public-school system all Japanese children learned the basic tenets of Bushido: Emperor worship, absolute obediance, and duty to the Emperor and Empire. FWIW, in after-action reports I've read, and accounts by my parents' next-door neighbor who was at Guadalcanal and Saipan, confirmed by Australian veterans I've met, Japanese NEVER made offers of surrender, such offers were initiated by the forces opposing them.

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- 1/12/2001 1:05:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

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Very good info. The Pacific theater has always been my favorite. Perhaps settings are a little extreme, but I do feel the mirror the intensity and tenacity of the Japanese soldier during the war. Or in other words, it does have a Pacific feel to it. USMC and Army troops were often not in a mood to take prisoners anyway Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 11
- 1/12/2001 1:42:00 AM   
hhsohn

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Major_Johnson: You know, I read somewhere that for the longest time the Japanese treated their prisoners the best, but then at the turn of the century (19th) something changed they became barbaric. Anyone know anything about this??
As far as I know, they've always been considered to be barbarians by Koreans. Korea's been invaded by them couple of times, and apparantly there's records from both sides of their atrocities against POW's and civilians.

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Post #: 12
- 1/12/2001 2:43:00 AM   
mogami


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Hi, I also incorrectly said the first use of MG's was 1904-05 it was the earlier war with China shortly before Spanish-American war where Japan indroduce the MG. I did not mean Japanese could not volunteer I meant they didn't have to. When asked the entire group in PI volunteered (I never heard of a Japanese refusing to volunteer) but it was also quite normal to order a man to a suicide mission (dig a hole put a 500lb bomb and a man with a hammer in it...AT mine) The first step to the code of Bushido is to be Shinto (many Japanese are just plain Buddists) Shinto is a mix of various eastern beliefs. The return of the Samurai tradition after about 100 year lapse saw the code of Bushido return with it. The main point being that Japan would have done well in France 1914-1918 but were severly handicapped in 42-45 when they went up against modern armies. Don't forget the Russians beat them before the War and again right at it's close (It is the forgotten massacure of WWII) Thousands of Japanese tried to surrender!!! Hundreds of thousands died rather then surrender. Most POW's were captured after being wounded and being lucky in who was there to take them. (many wounded Japanese were just shot) The allies were not in the mood to take prisoners after so many tricks and misdeeds. (It was common to find dead allies who it was appearent had been killed after they surrenderd.) The IJN routinly threw captured allied pilots and aircrew overboard after questioning them. The disipline in the Japanese army was brutal and the troops themselves (like the axis in Russia) were allowed to commit outrages against POW's/civilians in commpensation for battlefield behavior (it was thought good to keep them cruel for combat) Westerners often times forget just how long the IJA had been fighting. Before Pearl Harbour Japan had already suffered more casualties then the US lost in all theatres during the war. The Japan Russian War of 1904-05 was the greatest war in history up to that time and the country remained almost continusly at war from then till 1945. Many of the outrages commited by the IJA in China were a result of high casualties (revenge and an attempt to cow China into submission) Nanking was sacked by a General who had been embarrassed by how long it took him to capture it. (a prince so less) In SPWaW one of the effects of the no retreat no surrender attribute is to make Japanese infantry great tank killers (the game considers SNLF elite) Becarefull about getting to close. (In my present campaign I have 4 companies no AFV's and after 7 battles I have lost 500 men and killed 3500 and destroyed 281 AFV's) But now it is Dec 41 so those days will be over soon. Kamikaze aircraft carried radio's the last words spoken by the vast majority of those young pilots was "Momma" ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction! [This message has been edited by Mogami (edited January 11, 2001).]

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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- 1/12/2001 3:41:00 AM   
orc4hire

 

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Mogami, If you're referring to the 1894 war as the first use of the machine gun in combat, I'm afraid the Matabele War in 1893 beats it. It's a dirty little secret of war that no troops of any nationality or time period take many prisoners during opposed assaults. That's just the way it is. But there are a lot more records of Japanese troops committing mass suicide rather than surrender than there are of Japanese troops surrendering. I personally date the start of WWII at 1937.

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- 1/12/2001 4:18:00 AM   
Charles22

 

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I don't know. Wasn't the Gatlin Gun used some in the Civil War, beat them all as the first machine gun?

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- 1/12/2001 4:52:00 AM   
orc4hire

 

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The Gatling, Mitraileuse, Hotchkis, and Nordenfeldt aren't considered 'full' machine guns as they weren't really automatic, but hand cranked. The Maxim gun was the first true machine gun, auto-loading, belt fed, and water cooled.

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- 1/12/2001 5:11:00 AM   
Charles22

 

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orc4hire: That may be so, but I hadn't seen anyone refer to "full" mgs, so that the first use of a mg would include the Gatlin. I've always thought of a machine gun as just being a gun with a high ROF that fires bullets. In any case, here's the Webster's: Main Entry: ma·chine-gun Pronunciation: m&-'shEn-"g&n Function: adjective Date: 1906 : characterized by rapidity and sharpness : RAPID-FIRE Here's another:Main Entry: machine gun Function: noun Date: 1870 : a gun for sustained rapid fire that uses bullets; broadly : an automatic weapon - machine-gun verb - machine gun·ner noun

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- 1/12/2001 5:59:00 AM   
orc4hire

 

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Whatever, Charles.

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- 1/12/2001 6:25:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

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Whoah. I don't think that we should let our understanding of the development of military technology be led by a dictionary. That's for everyday folk, not people who are into the details. As far as Japan in the war, it is true that the average soldier, although in touch with the issue of honor and their nation, were in no way fanatical super high morale soldiers. They were regular people, with standard fears and properly functioning logical thinking abilities. The command was to blame for much of the character we see in the Japanese armed forces of the time. They WERE crazy, or at least very extreme in their thinking. A lot of their faults stemmed from their lack of respect for their enemy. Quite a fatal flaw... Tomo

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- 1/12/2001 7:35:00 AM   
rexmonday

 

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Major Johnson asked about the Japanese taking good care of prisoners up until about 1900 ... I believe it was in the Sino-Russian war that the Russians were well cared for. I seem to recall this as being about 1904 or thereabouts. It has to be remembered that despite the horrific treatment received by western prisoners of the Japanese in WWII very often the Japanese foot soldier was being treated little better by his superiors and the jungle which often surrounded him. Very often the POWs that he would be guarding would have many more medical staff (whether army medical or colonial civilians) per head than the Japanese army. True the japanese army had better medical supplies, but they too had a pretty high incidence of death from disease in places like Burma. *** respectful pause for all those who were involved in this all *** as far as the game goes, without wanting to change tone too quickly, when facing the japanese infantry you have to have 2 things - long range and short range units. Get some machine guns or light mortars set up to hit japanese units in the open at long distance, and also have some engineer or SMG armed troops for close in face-to-face, toe-to-toe jungle fighting. Make use of any spaces in the jungle, even if only a hex wide to set up kill zones. In game terms the japanese units will never surrender, rout or retreat, and there seems to be some debate going on here as to whether this is realistic or not. In my opinion it is acceptable, as although the units never do these things in SP infantry casualties cover not only fatalities but also wounded and dispirited troops. Thus some of those so called infantry kills may in fact just be Japanese infantry that have decided it is not worth dying for their emperor after all.

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Post #: 20
- 1/12/2001 8:06:00 AM   
troopie

 

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I've seen Japanese infantry retreat in the game, but never more than a hex or two. More often, when heavily suppressed, they just sit there, no doubt telling any officer who tells them to move, to get stuffed. troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete

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Post #: 21
- 1/12/2001 10:09:00 AM   
BruceAZ


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Very good comments. I think all of you will enjoy the new Pacific Campaign called "Guadalcanal 1942." I hope to release it by the end of the month to all at Matrix. Five SPWAW testors are play testing it now. You will find out just how fantical they can be... Bruce Semper Fi ------------------ "The most important element in war is man. And there are no tougher men than my China Marines." Major Gen. Archer 'Archy' Vandegrift, 1st Marine Division

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Post #: 22
- 1/12/2001 10:33:00 AM   
Dagobert

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Major_Johnson: You know, I read somewhere that for the longest time the Japanese treated their prisoners the best, but then at the turn of the century (19th) something changed they became barbaric. Anyone know anything about this??
Yes, that was true as far as the rules of war we're concerned during the Russo-Japanese and First World Wars. But the militaristic regimes from the 20s on fostered a spirit of jingoistic xenophobia that penetrated every aspect of Japanese society, even to the extent that elementary school children we're taught songs about 'killing the Chinks'. Got some of this from a good book entitled "The Pacific War" by Saburo Ienaga. It's more of a social than a military history, quite interesting. [This message has been edited by Dagobert (edited January 11, 2001).]

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- 1/12/2001 8:51:00 AM   
Drex

 

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Where can I find more info on the dfeat of the Japanese by Russia early in WWII that Mogami mentions? Really interesting.

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- 1/12/2001 9:50:00 AM   
Igor

 

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Perhaps it shouldn't have happened; but I actually captured two Japanese infantrymen in an early 1931 battle as the PLA. National characteristics were on, and yet two (grossly abused) survivors of an infantry squad really surrendered to the rifle squad that was in the hex with them attacking. I had visions of the entire assault pausing while the troops behind that fight stopped and stared at two *live prisoners* being brought to the rear...

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Post #: 25
- 1/12/2001 10:38:00 AM   
mogami


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Hi The Soviet-Japanese Border war was in 1939 It is the reason Marshal Zhukov and his Tank Army do not arrive in front of Moscow intill Novemeber 1941 (the Soviets want to insure Japan is not going to try again) But one of their agents in Japan (Richard Storge) reveils Japans plans to attack US instead so they are moved to the west. Lossess for both sides remain a mystery since both goverments kept them secret. What actually happened: From 1937 through mid-September 1939, the Russians and the Japanese army in Manchuria had a series of gradually escalating border clashes. The last one, ending in mid-September 1939, was essentially a mid-sized war. It involved over one hundred thousand men, several hundred tanks, heavy artillery, and aircraft. It produced tens of thousands of casualties, especially on the Japanese side. The Russians won decisively, surrounding and nearly annihilating Japanese forces as large as a division. The Japanese decided to make peace and leave the Soviets alone, which they did through most of World WarII. Here is a discription of the air war that took place. Nomonhan appears to be a village west of the Holsten river (NS at that point) just before it crossed the Soviet claimed boundary (NW-SE at that point). Holsten rises in Lake Abutara a few miles inside Soviet claimed territory, and flows into the Halha river (Khalkhin Gol). The cry before destroying the colors and committing suicide: "Tenno Heika Banzai!" three times. Duty is weightier than a mountain / Death is lighter than a feather. -- Imperial Precepts to Soldiers and Sailors, 1882 Summary of JAAF air The air force involved was the 2nd Hikoshidan, commanded by General GIGA Tetsuji. At the time of the August offensive it consisted of 4 scout planes attached to air force headquarters, 15 scout planes serving with the ground troops, and two combat wings with 125 aircraft: 12th Hikodan with 88 fighters, commander unidentified. Three fighter groups took part in the offensive, all of which later saw combat against the American Volunteer Group in Burma: 1st Sentai commanded first by Maj HARADA Fumio and later by Maj YOSHIDA Tadashi; 11th Sentai; and 64th Sentai commanded by Cap KATO Tateo. A fourth group, the 24th Sentai, evidently did not take part in the offensive. 9th Hikodan with 24 light bombers and 13 heavies, commanded by Maj Gen SHIMONO Ikkaku. The combat units included one squadron of the 10th Sentai (light bombers plus 2 scouts), three squadrons of the 16th Sentai (light), and one squadron of the 61st Sentai heavy commanded by Col MIKAMI Kiso Japanese ground commanders tended to discount verbal reports of air recon. Photos were rare because cameras difficult to operate. The 2nd Hikoshidan was worn down by August. In July, the Japanese had claimed 481 Russian planes while losing 14 of their own. In August they claimed 134 while losing 23. On the Russian side, Soviet AF officer A. B. Vorozheikin says the loss ratio was 4 Russ to 1 Jap in May but improved to 1:3 in June, 1:4 in July, and 1:10 in August. Nomonhan got most of Nakajima's production of Ki-27 fighters. The crews were exhausted and replacement pilots untrained. Flying up to 6 hrs daily. "An air staff officer remembers the drawn faces, glazed eyes, and hollow cheeks of Japanese aviators. Scout pilots . . . were having difficulty with their respiratory systems." Prior to the August offensive, 52 airmen were killed and 24 wounded, including Col ABE Katsumi c/o 15th Sentai killed by Russian strafing Aug 2. Lt Col MATSUMURA Korjiro c/o 24th Sentai shot down Aug 4 in fight with Russian veterans of Spanish Civil War, undersides of their wings painted violet. He was pinned by the tail of his own plane, his flight suit set afire, and lost all the fingers on one hand, but was rescued by another pilot who landed, pulled him free, and bundled him into his one-seater fighter. In all 80 percent of squadron commanders killed or wounded since fighting began. 70 percent of JAAF pilots had upwards of 1,000 hrs flight time. The big push, 21 August 1939 In July, Kwantung Army hq at Hsinking urged Imperial Army High Command for permission to launch an air offensive against Soviet- Mongol strongpoint at Tamsag. This was approved on Aug 7. "Operation S" set for dawn Aug 21. Estimated Soviet air strength 80-90 fighters, 30-40 larger planes. Says Giga had eight groups with 88 fighters, 24 light bombers, 13 heavy bombers, 21 scouts. 16th Sentai light bmr: 6-plane sq took off at 4:20 a.m. Bmrs in two tiers escorted by 50 ftrs flew across Halha for Tamsag airfield 60 km SW Higashi-watashi crossing. First squadron bombed at 6 a.m., still dark but could see outline of airfield, encountered flak returning. Second squadron (?) saw 16 large planes on field, encountered 20 I-16s (Polikarpov single-wing open cockpit fighter) when returning and took some hits. Third squadron could not find target and instead bombed tank formation. From 10th Sentai lt bmr 6 planes saw 10 Tupelov SB twin-engined bombers on airfield NE Tamsang, bombed them and claimed 2 destroyed. Escorting 12th Fighter Wing met no planes. Second wave attacked 11 a.m. Squadron from 16th Sentai bombed southern airstrip, claimed five of eight large planes. Another squadron same group intercepted by fighters so turned for home and attacked ground installations; lost one plane and claimed 3 fighters. 61st Sentai heavy bomber with 12 planes met eight fighters at southern airstrip and claimed two; on way home claimed three more. 12th Ftr Wing? met 50-60 enemy planes, claimed 27 ftrs and 1 SB bomber, lost 3 own. In afternoon, supported Jap ground forces by bombing tanks and vehicles near Fui Heights; met enemy planes. 16th lt bmr claimed 6 of 30 I-16s, losing one man killed and two wounded. Escorting 11th Sentai fighters claimed 11 of 40-50 I-15s (Polikarpov biplane fighter) and I-16s. Evening: 10th Sentai squadron bombed 3 ftrs taking off from concealed aistrip west of Hara Heights. Escorting fighters engaged 50 enemy fighters, claimed 9, lost 1 from 64th Sentai. Still, had failed to neutralize enemy air so scheduled followup for next day. AUG 22: 61st Sentai heavies attacked by 30 I-16s, claimed 6 but lost 1 with entire crew of 5. Fighters met 30 enemy, claimed 3, lost 1 from 1st Sentai to AA. Scouts attached to 23rd Div reported that Soviet armor was endangering Jap positions, so Giga called off the air offensive to support the ground forces. AA shot down scout from 10th Sentai. Capt MOTOMURA Koji, 11th Sentai sq ldr, shot down while single-handedly battling 30 I-16s strafing ground forces north of 23rd Div hq. Though claimed 109 Russ planes in two days, had actually lost air supremacy. Worst losses since outbreak of Nomonhan fighting, say 8 planes first day, 6 the second. Plus 22-24 killed or wounded. Jap airmen exhausted but ordered to keep flying. Soviets reinforced air. Climax battle 28-31 Aug. Soviet AF reported four encounters with JAAF, downing 4 bombers and 45 fighters. Major battle 31 Aug, when 126 Soviet fighters bounced 27 Jap bombers and 70 fighters, shooting down 22. Japs claimed 20 Russ planes that day, losing 3 planes and 4 men. Altogether, Japs claimed 108 Soviet a/c shot down while losing 29 (and 20 airmen killed and 32 wounded) from 23 thru 31 Aug. After 5 Sept, major changes in JAAF. Operational strength down from 160 planes on 29 Aug to 141 planes on 5 Sept. The 31st Sentai and 64th Sentai had come up from China in July and August. More reinforcements began to move on 1 Sep. Giga's 2nd Hikoshidan absorbed by EBASHIT Eijiro's XXXX, increasing air strength at Nomonhan by 50% with 9 new squadrons -- 6 fighter, 1 recon, 2 light bomber -- to a total of four wings (hikodan?) with 34-37 squadrons and up to 325 planes. [Later: my guess is that only three hikodan were deployed at Nomonhan.] Russians likewise reinforced air units at the front. On 13 Sep, Ebashi gave go-ahead. 225 planes airworthy; fighters and some light bombers deployed to forward bases. Weather improved on 14 Sep. Maj YOSHIDA Tadashi's 1st Sentai (Ki-27) bounced about 28 Soviet I-15 and I-16 fighters in afternoon, claiming 3. Weather still fair on 15 Sep, and Ebashi sent all Ki-27s and two light bombers groups plus scouts -- total 200 planes -- to hit enemy airfields. 20 Nates from Lt Col IMAGAWA Issaku's 59th Sentai engaged 50 Russ fighters, claimed 11. But one squadron followed Russ to south, was ambushed, and lost six Nates and their pilots, inc. s/l YAMAMOTO Mitsugu. 24th Sentai under newly arrived Capt SAKAGAWA Toshio claimed 13 Russ fighters; Sakagawa wounded but lost ndot planes. Total Jap claims: 39 in air, 4-5 on ground; lost 9, with 8 pilots killed incl 2 squadron leaders, plus three lt bombers damaged. Russ say six air battles: 1, 2, 4, 5, 14, and 15 Sept, the last being the biggest, with 102 Jap planes engaging 207 Russ. Russ claimed 20, lost 6. Altogether for Sept, Russ claimed 70, lost 14; Japs claimed 121, lost 24. The aftermath JAAF casualties 141 killed, including 17 officers squadron leader or higher, w/ highest ranking being Col ABE Katsumi, c/o 15th Sentai. One-third of losses were over enemy lines. Plus 89 wounded. 10% of casualties in May and June, 26 percent in July, 50 percent in August, 14 percent in September. Russ returned bodies of 55 JAAF airmen from west side of the Halha. In one PW compound, the Russians held 500-600 Japanese prisoners, including a JAAF colonel. The released [bodies?] included Maj HARADA Fumio, 1st Sentai c/o shot down 29 July, possibly by Senior Lt V. G. Rakhov, who claimed to have shot down a Jap "ace" that day, who bailed out, tried to commit suicide, but was captured alive. As Rakhov told the story, the Japanese prisoner asked to meet the Russ pilot who defeated him, then bowed "in tribute to the victor" (quoting Georgi Zhukov THE MEMOIRS OF MARSHAL ZHUKOV, New York: Delacorte, 1971, p 164). Also [the body of?] 1st Lt DAITOKU Naoyuki of 11th Sentai. The Russians sent him to Shintan hospital at Kirin, with MPs guarding the train and toilet doors always kept open, to prevent suicide attempts. Tight security also at hospital, where most of the orderlies were actually MPs. As the story was told, two coffins were carried into the hospital the day before a six-hour "trial," after which guards were forbidden to go into the officers' rooms. They duly shot themselves, Harada supposedly after being given a loaded pistol and a Japanese publication describing his "heroic death in action" (quoting Japanese sources). JAAF Master Sgt MIYAJIMA SHIKO, Ki-27 pilot of 24th Sentai, bellied in 22 June, wandered 4 days without food or water, captured by a Mongol patrol and imprisoned under harsh conditions for 10 months, returned to Japanese forces in 1940, tried, and sentenced to two years and 10 months for "desertion under enemy fire." Released 31 Dec 1942. (quotes Hata Ikuhiko, interview and article) Gen Giga in August 1940 made commander of a bomber basic training school, then retired in Oct 1941 at age of 56 and spent most of WWII as a farmer. unit citations to Col Noguchi's 11th Sentai for air battles in May, Lt Col Matsumura's 24th Sentai for combat in June. Also to all three wings and to a squadron of 16th Sentai. Russ I-16 fighters used 82 mm rockets to attack Jap ground positions, and some claim of using air-to-air missiles against Jap planes. I-16 saw service on Western front until 1943, and in Spanish service under 1952. Says it was replaced at Nomonhan by the retractable-gear I-153 Chaika fighter-bomber, much more powerful than the I-15. JAAF had trained only 1,700 pilots in 30 years; losses at Nomonhan crippled it. By December 1941, army flight schools graduating 750 pilots a year. This was one of the reasons Japan went to war with the Western Allies. The US had cut of supply of vital material. Japan had the choice of war or withdrawing from territory it had fought over for nearly 50 years. Given the state of mind and culture there really was no other option. ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction! [This message has been edited by Mogami (edited January 11, 2001).]

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to walbers)
Post #: 26
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