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My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/16/2011 8:12:49 PM

shart1949

Posts: 8
Joined: 12/16/2011
Status: offline

This comes after trying very hard to play and enjoy this game for the last month. It is obviously aimed at those grognards who thoroughly enjoy micro-management. No doubt this game provides extraordinary detail in all aspects of the Pacific theatre of WWII, but I personally would have liked an option for some second-in-commands. Something that had elements of Hearts of Iron III and Supremacy at Sea. Something where the player could set an overall strategy and objectives and then his 2IC's would attend to the minutia with the option for the player to review and modify said details; TF composition and mission, troop deployment, etc.

I know this is going to garner me a lot of flame and bad talk, but I just had to get it off my chest.

Thank for letting me.

Post #: 1

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/16/2011 8:21:57 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

Who is it that has the Signature "War in the Pacific: The Struggle against Logistics"?

That's the beauty (or the blemish, for some) of the game. If you don't like that, you don't enjoy the game. But, naturally, the forum is made up largely of those who love the game so much that they gladly play despite whatever things they might wish had been done differently.

In all probability, if the game was something other than what it is, it wouldn't be the massive, magnificent masterpiece that it is, with possibly the best wargaming community ever.

(in reply to shart1949)

Post #: 2

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/16/2011 8:26:03 PM

shart1949

Posts: 8
Joined: 12/16/2011
Status: offline

Agreed. And that is why I profoundly thank all for letting me spout, and why I will gamely continue to try to "get into" this game. Wish me fortitude.

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Post #: 3

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/16/2011 8:30:28 PM

Commander Stormwolf

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

I personally would have liked an option for some second-in-commands

3vs3 PBEM

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Post #: 4

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/16/2011 8:59:30 PM

USSAmerica

Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: shartlep

Agreed. And that is why I profoundly thank all for letting me spout, and why I will gamely continue to try to "get into" this game. Wish me fortitude.

No flaming here, just because you might have different game preferences! I love that you are going to keep at it for a bit. It WILL eventually suck you in!

Keep asking questions around here and check out the various threads full of suggestions for beginning players, and especially the videos that Damian has recorded to demonstrate using the game interface to complete various tasks!

Welcome aboard!

_____________________________

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

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Post #: 5

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/16/2011 9:21:09 PM

pompack

Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Who is it that has the Signature "War in the Pacific: The Struggle against Logistics"?�

That's the beauty (or the blemish, for some) of the game.� If you don't like that, you don't enjoy the game.� But, naturally, the forum is made up largely of those who love the game so much that they gladly play despite whatever things they might wish had been done differently.�

In all probability, if the game was something other than what it is, it wouldn't be the massive, magnificent masterpiece that it is, with possibly the best wargaming community ever.

Personally I always liked

"War in the Pacific: Cargo Manifests at Sea"

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 6

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/16/2011 9:22:47 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: shartlep

This comes after trying very hard to play and enjoy this game for the last month. It is obviously aimed at those grognards who thoroughly enjoy micro-management. No doubt this game provides extraordinary detail in all aspects of the Pacific theatre of WWII, but I personally would have liked an option for some second-in-commands. Something that had elements of Hearts of Iron III and Supremacy at Sea. Something where the player could set an overall strategy and objectives and then his 2IC's would attend to the minutia with the option for the player to review and modify said details; TF composition and mission, troop deployment, etc.

I know this is going to garner me a lot of flame and bad talk, but I just had to get it off my chest.

Thank for letting me.

no flames.....and I helped develop the game. Fully understand your view. WitP to begin with was a monster game. AE made it more of a monster game. Getting through a single Grand campaign in PBEM is considered a "milestone" in a person's life as was the case with Bombing the Reich. After extended stretches with AE, i begin to appreciate a good quick game of Axis and Allies more as a change of pace

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Post #: 7

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/16/2011 10:00:54 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

Ditto the other replies. If you stick with it you will get much, much better at it than you might now feel. It's even possible that you develop a keener appreciation/affinity for the logistics involved. If you're game to, keep at it keep us posted.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 8

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/16/2011 11:16:07 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: shartlep

This comes after trying very hard to play and enjoy this game for the last month. It is obviously aimed at those grognards who thoroughly enjoy micro-management. No doubt this game provides extraordinary detail in all aspects of the Pacific theatre of WWII, but I personally would have liked an option for some second-in-commands. Something that had elements of Hearts of Iron III and Supremacy at Sea. Something where the player could set an overall strategy and objectives and then his 2IC's would attend to the minutia with the option for the player to review and modify said details; TF composition and mission, troop deployment, etc.

Well....somebody obviously did not read the warning on the box cover before buying the game

Just kidding. You are absolutely right in that the game is really for the hard core. It takes up a lot of time and attention to detail. There are a lot of other great games out there that should fit the bill for you. Sorry it did not suit you.

As for me, I have been playing board war games for forty years. This is the game that I fantasized about 30 years ago and never though would happen. Of course computers made it possible, and some pretty smart guys. I have been in hog heaven for two years now and I am not getting tired of WITPAE. But it is not for everyone.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 12/16/2011 11:19:16 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/16/2011 11:17:15 PM

Mac Linehan

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline

shartlep -

Welcome to the forums - we appreciate your comments and observations.

I bought the original WitP in 2004; but was brain zapped (OK - more than normal!) by this monster game. Spent hours (days!) going over the map; hex by hex, without a real clue as to "just what the heck am I supposed to do? And HOW do I do it?". Aside from the small scenarios, I never played a WitP Grand Campaign. But I did hang in there, read the rules, perused the forums and played what I could.

AE is even bigger - with much more detail - but very doable - and so much better and rewarding.

If I may suggest:

> Study the rules. Break it down into a section at a time - and highlight what is important. Never assume that once or twice thru the manual is enough; as you gain actual play experience, you will reread a familiar section and the light bulb will come on - you will understand what that paragraph really means. The manual is well written and succinct - it has to be; because there is an incredible amount of detail and concepts to cover - within a limited space. Detailing aside (which I very much enjoy), one of the reasons my turns take a while to complete is because I will check the rules or a forum post (I have a AE forum library folder) to make sure that I have it right - and can make a (hopefully) informed move / adjustment.

> The forums - an outstanding resource; there are literally thousands of posts by experienced players, covering practically every aspect of the game. Try searching first; numerous posts have commented on different search styles and approaches. If that doesn't get an answer, then post and ask - someone is sure to answer your question quickly.

> AAR's - Not sure what to hit first or where to move your forces (especially for a Japanese player trying to keep his economy going after the first six months); here is a gold mine of "What to do first" from a group of highly experienced players. I constantly come across strategies or techniques that I would never have thought of without reading the AAR's. Even when I hadn't played more than one turn of a scenario (and was somewhat discouraged), reading an AAR all the way thru would fire me up - I would be ready to kick butt; and get right back into it with new enthusiasm.

> Play the small scenarios first. I am playing a Grand Campaign and small Coral Sea Scenario at the same time. Why? Because while I may feel confident in setting up the Japanese Resource Convoys (spread sheets and all); it is Coral Sea (and the other small scenarios) that allow me to get into and learn some of the intricacies of Carrier (or LCU) combat right off the bat - minus all of the time needed for production and a multitude of other stuff. The small scenarios will give you confidence without the burden of a huge map and all that goes with a Campaign; eventually you will work your way up to the Guadalcanal Scenario - which has all the Air / Land / Sea elements there at your command.

> There are also a number of other specialized scenarios, including (but not limited to) Andy Mac's "Return to Wake", "Downfall", and "Burma" scenarios. Nikademus has a Guadalcanal Nick Mod, and a May 1942 start Campaign. Each one will teach you something new in different aspects of the game; all of the above scenarios were done by Gents who helped put AE together - and who know what they are doing.

If an AE Grand Campaign can take three or more years to complete, it is not unreasonable to expect a player to spend a fair amount of time studying and learning the game beforehand.

Finally: Sometimes, when faced with reading a new rulebook of significant size, I will alternate reading the new while playing another game that I am familiar with. My awesome wife bought me War in the East for Christmas, I do not anticipate (because of my AE commitment) playing WitE until this summer. So - Periodically, I will study the WitE rules, and should have them read / studied (or at least be familiar with them) by this next June. Not the same as actually playing the game; but when the time (and inclination) arrives, my confidence level will enable a much faster climb up the learning curve. Just a thought...

Please hang in there - because the play experience (and forum guys and gal) will provide an incredibly rewarding and satisfying experience. AE is much, much more than a game...

Hope this helps, Sir.

Mac

< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 12/17/2011 1:36:50 AM >

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Post #: 10

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 12:09:03 AM

zuluhour

Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline

I heard in AEII we get to pick the USO performers

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Post #: 11

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 1:03:34 AM

TOMLABEL

Posts: 5116
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Alabama - ROLL TIDE!!!!!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I heard in AEII we get to pick the USO performers

Alright - who let that secret out!!!!!

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Post #: 12

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 1:39:19 AM

BB57

Posts: 89
Joined: 1/20/2003
From: Beresford, SD
Status: offline

So AEII is being worked on.

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Post #: 13

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 2:25:13 AM

GenChaos33

Posts: 360
Joined: 9/28/2000
Status: offline

I say just take a break from the game. Hopefully, it will draw you back into the madness. It always does it to me. I'll then play some other bad pacific game. Then it hits me maybe I should try AE again (since AE is so much better). Then I find that I end up going a little deeper into the game. Then the cycle keeps repeating. FYI - I bet I'm still only about halfway into knowing all of this game. Hopefully sometime in my life, I'll be playing this game correctly and fully at 100% gameplay. Just enjoy the ride! (then take another break....hehe)

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Post #: 14

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 9:15:46 AM

Omat

Posts: 2414
Joined: 8/18/2004
Status: offline

Hello

Was that not an important point in Worls War II to make mistakes? When I read about it saw and read about misinterpretation, mistakes, incompetency.
An other aspect was that e.g. the US also did not "know" how to use their forces under prevailing conditions. Many tactics they had to develop.
In a way WiTP give you the possibility to the same. Use you oppoment his forces in a certains way you have to react.

The funny part is even very good and high regarded players here did not all "game rules" and making udicrous mistakes.

So playing correctly and fully at 100% gameplay will probably not possible because we are humans.

Humans tend to do mistakes (But they do not admit them willingly

)

I do not think this game is about doing all thinks right but rather can my opponent see my mistakes and get an advantage.

Omat

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeneralChaos

I say just take a break from the game. Hopefully, it will draw you back into the madness. It always does it to me. I'll then play some other bad pacific game. Then it hits me maybe I should try AE again (since AE is so much better). Then I find that I end up going a little deeper into the game. Then the cycle keeps repeating. FYI - I bet I'm still only about halfway into knowing all of this game. Hopefully sometime in my life, I'll be playing this game correctly and fully at 100% gameplay. Just enjoy the ride! (then take another break....hehe)

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Post #: 15

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 9:29:53 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

shartlep, this is nothing to feel bad about.

I am playing a single PBEM, with a pace of about a turn every 2 days average, sometimes more sometimes less.
Its all I will ever be able to handle, and I still sometimes got the feeling of being overwhelmed by all those little icons on a huge map.

One thing you can try to do different compared to most other games is: detach youreself from time, or better, from progress/time.

If you view the game from a progress/time perspective, you will always remain with the nagging feeling that you do want to hit
the turn button, but are not sure if you left something out, feel a bit overwhelmed by what else is left to do, or missed some precious bit of information.
If you can bring yourself to just enjoy the ride, spend as much time with a single turn as you like (even if it means to save and reload the
next day), ignore just about everything on another day, and simply do not care anymore if your game takes 1 or 5 years until its done,
then youre fine.

I think there are a few people out there who are resilient enough to enjoy the ride on their own against the AI for a very long time.
If you plan to do that, ask PaxMondo, Bullwinkle or Sardaukar how they do it. They are awesome and probably know the game
much better than 90% of the slowly progressing PBEM players.

Personally the game addiction is at its best in PBEM. Because the motivation is not only the game, but the humans behind the game.
My PBEM is a 2 vs. 1, and both other players have become good friends very quickly. I enjoy playing with and against them, they respect the
reduced pace of turns if one of us got important other things to do or simply needs a short brake, they are highly skilled and dangerous,
they love to talk about the game and other things, and each of us has his own character and distinct style of play.
This is, IMHO, the best way to enjoy WitP AE.

That said, I love playing the newest version of HOI III (really great game), I play Distant Worlds (also by matrix games, one of the best after WitP AE I think),
I love to kill other players on World of Tanks, and some time when I go the time for it, I will progress further into the dephts of Skyrim with my lonesome ranger,
LoBaron the Ugly.

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Post #: 16

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 12:29:12 PM

zzodr

Posts: 178
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

WITPAE isn't a game. It's a career!

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Post #: 17

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 12:42:08 PM

Dili

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

Don't pretend to control all minutiae. When i played witp i could do turn in half an hour or even less except in crucial operations.

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Post #: 18

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 2:46:26 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I heard in AEII we get to pick the USO performers

Yes, I have already been working on the database. Funny, they will not let me know the names of anybody else on the development team. And they keep losing my checks.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 19

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 2:48:43 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

I think you need to simply follow the game...don't pretend to lead it...you won't. Ever. This game is simply too much for a human being.
You will learn. I can assure you. Slowly and taking many slaps in the face...but you will learn.
You'll get depressed. you will curse the skies and all the Gods you know and pray. You will want to throw the tower case out of the window. You will want to scream.
But you will eventually learn.

And..,playing against another human, really thrills you.
You will spend hours, days, months in planning a single operation....and when it will finally unfold in front of your ayes...well, there's not a word that can describe how you will feel in that moment.

Do you remember your first kiss or your first "inside" ? Well, nothing compared to a good WITPAE operation

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 20

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 10:10:59 PM

Treetop64

Posts: 926
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: 519 Redwood City - BASE (Hex 218, 70)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: shartlep

This comes after trying very hard to play and enjoy this game for the last month. It is obviously aimed at those grognards who thoroughly enjoy micro-management. No doubt this game provides extraordinary detail in all aspects of the Pacific theatre of WWII, but I personally would have liked an option for some second-in-commands. Something that had elements of Hearts of Iron III and Supremacy at Sea. Something where the player could set an overall strategy and objectives and then his 2IC's would attend to the minutia with the option for the player to review and modify said details; TF composition and mission, troop deployment, etc.

I know this is going to garner me a lot of flame and bad talk, but I just had to get it off my chest.

Thank for letting me.

That is exactly how I felt long ago when first trying this game. I'm certain many here felt the same way, too. I hated all the micromanaging.

WitPAE is an epic learning experience when you are starting, though. It took me many months just to get the hang of basic logistics. Once I figured some of it out, there was more to learn that could benefit from what I just figured out, and then I figured that out, etc. etc... It became a learning circle!

Today, my favorite part of the game is the micromanaging and, especially, the logistics (hence, my sig!).

This game gives the player a lot of room to plan his or her own strategy in logistics and military operations. One has a lot, a lot, to learn to do this effectively, however. It takes time.

Note: Even for experienced players, the first month or two of game time in a new campaign (the Grand Campaign, or equally large campaign) is a royal pain in the backside. Every time. Once in February or March of '42, however, you have a generally good idea on how things are running and you can concentrate more on how you want to prosecute the war itself.

I implore you not to give up. WitP-AE is certainly not for everyone, and even for those that it is, it is tough at first. If you have the time, stick with it, and it'll come around. You'll be glad you did.

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Post #: 21

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 11:13:46 PM

GenChaos33

Posts: 360
Joined: 9/28/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omat

Hello

Was that not an important point in Worls War II to make mistakes? When I read about it saw and read about misinterpretation, mistakes, incompetency.
An other aspect was that e.g. the US also did not "know" how to use their forces under prevailing conditions. Many tactics they had to develop.
In a way WiTP give you the possibility to the same. Use you oppoment his forces in a certains way you have to react.

The funny part is even very good and high regarded players here did not all "game rules" and making udicrous mistakes.

So playing correctly and fully at 100% gameplay will probably not possible because we are humans. Humans tend to do mistakes (But they do not admit them willingly )

I do not think this game is about doing all thinks right but rather can my opponent see my mistakes and get an advantage.

Omat

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeneralChaos

I say just take a break from the game. Hopefully, it will draw you back into the madness. It always does it to me. I'll then play some other bad pacific game. Then it hits me maybe I should try AE again (since AE is so much better). Then I find that I end up going a little deeper into the game. Then the cycle keeps repeating. FYI - I bet I'm still only about halfway into knowing all of this game. Hopefully sometime in my life, I'll be playing this game correctly and fully at 100% gameplay. Just enjoy the ride! (then take another break....hehe)

I think Omat read my comment wrong. I did not mean you can only play mistake free games. Yes, mistakes are a part of all strategy/war games. So mistakes in planning, failure to setup a base/TF/air/etc., or major losses in battles are just part of the game. I meant correctly understanding how to work the menus to do exactly what you want to do. The UI is not the most friendly and the manual is always outdated. So thats where alot of my frustration has come from. Since there is no 2nd in command/friend AI help, its all up to the player to figure it out by himself, ask/search on the forums, etc. So for me, the game has always been a practice game for me vs AI. I just try to keep adding a new part of game that I don't understand into my current game. I don't worry about how well the JAP AI is doing. I just keep working on my babysteps (repairing ships, setting up new bases, resupply, invasions, land battles, training pilots, air strike alts/packages, China, Japan Industry, planning Tracker/spreadsheet, etc. - endless stuff to learn) So again I'll repeat. Hopefully at some point, I'll understand this monster of a game (the learning curve is a wall!).

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Post #: 22

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/17/2011 11:32:15 PM

mikkey

Posts: 3142
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Slovakia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan
...
> There are also a number of other specialized scenarios, including (but not limited to) Andy Mac's "Return to Wake", "Downfall", and "Burma" scenarios. Nikademus has a Guadalcanal Nick Mod, and a May 1942 start Campaign.
...

Mac, where I find Guadalcanal Nick Mod scenario? Thanks

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Post #: 23

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/18/2011 5:26:31 PM

shart1949

Posts: 8
Joined: 12/16/2011
Status: offline

Again, I want to thank everyone for their support, encouragement and suggestions. This is what makes for a "great" community. I WILL continue to wrap my brain around this game, and I WILL come to enjoy it!

Thanks again.

(in reply to mikkey)

Post #: 24

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/19/2011 5:24:12 AM

DSwain

Posts: 171
Joined: 9/23/2006
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline

The British equivalent of USO was ENSA - Entertainment National Service Association. My dad told me that, in the RN in the 1940s, it was commonly referred to as 'Every Night Something Awful'

quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I heard in AEII we get to pick the USO performers

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Post #: 25

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/19/2011 8:18:03 AM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

Actually, the OP hits on the biggest problem with the game. I just can't get into it due to the over-whelming amount of micro-management. I can play for a while, but it just gets to be too much. Vanilla may have had less control, but it also had a lot less micro-management which made it more palatable for folks like the OP and myself.

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Post #: 26

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/19/2011 2:48:09 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Actually, the OP hits on the biggest problem with the game. I just can't get into it due to the over-whelming amount of micro-management. I can play for a while, but it just gets to be too much. Vanilla may have had less control, but it also had a lot less micro-management which made it more palatable for folks like the OP and myself.

Agreed, if they only got rid of "pilot training" which I find to be a serious time suck I would get 3 hours a week of my life back...

Still, I am addicted.

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Post #: 27

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/19/2011 2:55:00 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

The later Betas have vastly improved the facilities for managing pilots/pilot training, just in case you guys haven't seen them.

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Post #: 28

RE: My humble opinion of WITPAE - 12/19/2011 3:33:02 PM

nashvillen

Posts: 3836
Joined: 7/3/2006
From: Christiana, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The later Betas have vastly improved the facilities for managing pilots/pilot training, just in case you guys haven't seen them.

+1 here. I now only spend 15-20 minutes managing my pilots on the 1st and 15th of each month instead of an hour or so. Much appreciated!

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