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weaponizing mining stations - 12/21/2011 11:30:49 PM   
themetalcrow

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 1/24/2010
Status: offline 		i know you can technically design any ship or base with anything on it, but does it get used?

if i put weapons on mining stations would they use them or does the role override the design and not use weapons?

basically would a starbase mine resources like a station or would the role not let it do that?

are the roles actually that powerful? which i think is good

garrett
Post #: 1
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/21/2011 11:38:23 PM   
HectorOfTroy


Posts: 312
Joined: 1/9/2011
Status: offline 		If you put weapons on the mining base they will be used. It's a very good thing when you have some which are very important and you want to protect them from those pesky pirates.

(in reply to themetalcrow)
Post #: 2
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 12:17:41 AM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: themetalcrow

basically would a starbase mine resources like a station or would the role not let it do that?

garrett

As long as the Starbase is at a planet that is NOT colonized, it will mine the resources if its
design includes a mining component and at least one cargo bay.

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RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 12:27:52 AM   
themetalcrow

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 1/24/2010
Status: offline 		really?

so "Roles" don't matter?

seems like an exploit or do the ai empires take advantage of this too?

also, are the space ports and gas mining stations and colonies the only place ships can or will refuel? cuz looking at designs the only difference between a regular mining station and a gas mining one is the extractor, but i don't get a refuel indicator for regular mining stations. am i right in this thought?

so, the ship role doesn't matter or how does it effect a design?

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Post #: 4
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 1:13:48 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		You can put weapons on any station in game and they will still function in the role they were designed for. And they do quite the job of defending themselves.

My personal preference for stations is 6 shields and 6 Maxos blasters. Takes quite a while before pirates can get strong enough to over-power that.

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Post #: 5
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 3:04:23 AM   
Ares106


Posts: 86
Joined: 1/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

You can put weapons on any station in game and they will still function in the role they were designed for. And they do quite the job of defending themselves.

My personal preference for stations is 6 shields and 6 Maxos blasters. Takes quite a while before pirates can get strong enough to over-power that.

but is it cost effective? assuming normal pirates on average distance.

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Post #: 6
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 5:38:55 AM   
balto

 

Posts: 1123
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I think it is wise to arm and shield them too, especially the gas mining ones from the very start.

In the early game, it possibly could be seen as not being cost effective, but you cannot retrofit the mining stations., so if you do NOT arm them right away, they can never be armed.

Also, arming them not only fights off weak pirate attacks, it also DELAYS their destruction from pirates and other empires so that your fleets/patrols/cavalry can ride in and save the day.

I do not think there is a right or wrong here, it is just a preference. I prefer to arm and shield.

On a related note, put extra mining engines and extractors and cargo bays on these. This too is just a suggestion.

< Message edited by balto -- 12/22/2011 5:40:57 AM >

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Post #: 7
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 5:55:11 AM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2428
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: themetalcrow
i know you can technically design any ship or base with anything on it, but does it get used?
if i put weapons on mining stations would they use them or does the role override the design and not use weapons?
basically would a starbase mine resources like a station or would the role not let it do that?
are the roles actually that powerful? which i think is good

garrett


I have armed mining stations... with upgraded shields, and a couple of lasers, I am able to keep the station alive LONG enough for a fleet escort to arrive and restore the situation.


_____________________________

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Post #: 8
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 6:01:24 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ares106


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

You can put weapons on any station in game and they will still function in the role they were designed for. And they do quite the job of defending themselves.

My personal preference for stations is 6 shields and 6 Maxos blasters. Takes quite a while before pirates can get strong enough to over-power that.

but is it cost effective? assuming normal pirates on average distance.


I always play with max pirates on nearby distance. It does pay for itself since it beats replacing the stations every 10 minutes. The maintenance costs aren't that much more than the base designs, and remember the mining stations hit your civie economy, not the government.

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Post #: 9
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 6:28:21 AM   
themetalcrow

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 1/24/2010
Status: offline 		that's cool but do you guys feel this is an exploit or have you seen ai empires arming their mining stations as well or what?

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Post #: 10
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 6:41:36 AM   
J HG T


Posts: 1093
Joined: 5/14/2010
From: Kiadia Prime
Status: offline 		It doesn't honestly feel like exploit. I think it's a wise move to add some firepower to the most vulnerable part of your empire.
But, the fact that AI empires don't have armed mining stations could be considered a small problem. 2-4 beam guns to every AI mining station design would solve the problem.
The next patch is going to enhance the AI designs and the design mechanics overall, so better wait and see what that brings.


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Post #: 11
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 6:42:18 AM   
Ares106


Posts: 86
Joined: 1/29/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: themetalcrow

that's cool but do you guys feel this is an exploit or have you seen ai empires arming their mining stations as well or what?

I believe they (at least some empires) should be doing this in the next patch if the stars align correctly.

(in reply to themetalcrow)
Post #: 12
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 6:53:19 AM   
jpwrunyan


Posts: 558
Joined: 12/3/2011
From: Uranus
Status: offline 		Play the game with your starting system set to harsh and you will suddenly learn what maintenance costs are. Weaponizing mines significantly affects maintenance. You just wont notice if you are rich.

I design different bases depending on whether they are remote or not. Remote bases may be better served by having weapons because that is cheaper than building ships to patrol it. I also often try to double up resorts and research stations with mining eq to squeeze a few more pennies savings. The game is very interesting when you are poor.

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Post #: 13
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 8:54:37 AM   
sbach2o

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: J HG T

It doesn't honestly feel like exploit. I think it's a wise move to add some firepower to the most vulnerable part of your empire.
But, the fact that AI empires don't have armed mining stations could be considered a small problem. 2-4 beam guns to every AI mining station design would solve the problem.
The next patch is going to enhance the AI designs and the design mechanics overall, so better wait and see what that brings.



Not only would arming the AI's mining stations solve a problem they have, it would almost completely marginalize pirates as a threat. All that would be left to them would be threatening stations under construction or scaring away freighters, disrupting trade. Well, that is what they are to the typical human player who arms his mining stations, anyway: little pests to be hunted for reputation. So the next step would consist in beefing them up... You can see where this is going? At least we have those legendary pirates now.

Whether armed or unarmed mining stations are a better deal depends a lot on how efficiently a lost one will be replaced. Unfortunately the transportation AI is very poor at prioritizing jobs and getting them done. After a few game years, many a constructor ship will wait a long, long time for deliveries of raw materials it couldn't pick up on its visit to a space port when preparing for the job. This is why losing the wrong mining station at the wrong time can hurt a lot. But the human player can intervene here as well: stop stuck construction, send constructor to repair the unfinished mine, this might speed up the process.

< Message edited by sbach2o -- 12/22/2011 9:00:24 AM >

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Post #: 14
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 10:44:16 AM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		You know pirates are in the game for gameplay reasons,to be a hassle.Weaponizing mining stations would not only make them irelavent but also give you a massive advantage over the A.I empires who do not.

I play with house rules enforced because many of the gameplay assets are not used very well by the A.I.

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Post #: 15
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 2:24:10 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ares106


quote:

ORIGINAL: themetalcrow

that's cool but do you guys feel this is an exploit or have you seen ai empires arming their mining stations as well or what?

I believe they (at least some empires) should be doing this in the next patch if the stars align correctly.


Number should be based on the agression/caution settings. Say a 2 gun minimum for all stations, with the more agressive/cautious races getting up to 4 more? I don't think my design to be over-powered, it is a station after all, and a pair of destroyers can still take it out.

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Post #: 16
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 3:09:20 PM   
Ares106


Posts: 86
Joined: 1/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

You know pirates are in the game for gameplay reasons,to be a hassle.Weaponizing mining stations would not only make them irelavent but also give you a massive advantage over the A.I empires who do not.

I play with house rules enforced because many of the gameplay assets are not used very well by the A.I.

I disagree that pirates would become irrelevant.

Early pirates can still cause havoc with your miners exploration ships constructors (while they are building) trading ships colony ships diverting your fleets and escaping before you blow them up.

Late pirates copy ship powerful ship designs attack in packs and can easily destroy armed mining bases. While legendary pirates from legends will wreck even some of the best defended star-bases and match your late-game fleets. Thus making pirates overall quite relevant at all stages of the game.

Furthermore if you dont want pirates to be irrelevant in the late-game, dont ignore escort frigate destroyer designs, like some people do.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
Post #: 17
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 8:10:14 PM   
feelotraveller


Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		For the OP - research stations are the only thing which will get location tech bonuses and resort stations are the only base which will get tourists.

I've been of the 'arming' school of mining bases traditionally, not enough to wipe out a fleet but enough to deal with early threats/delay long enough to get support there. But in my latest game I've tried no weapons and am liking it a lot. Less maintenance but much more importantly (for me) significantly shorter build times. I'm sure I've banked enough constructor time to be several bases ahead in my building already. Resort bases still get some weapons but I've forgone them on research stations as well. I do add an extra shield or two. With the cash I save (indirectly by raising taxes since I need less civil maintenance) I am able to build more fleets to actually deal with the pirates. Bases may weaken them but I have not yet seen them kill pirates in 1.7.0.7.

I think you can go both ways but I'm now inclining to not weaponising, or only in special circumstances (Zentabia Fluid, anyone ).

With the computer... it is a matter of balance. If it is a significant advantage to do so then that must be factored. Ideally it should be at that point of balance where either tactic statistically comes out even. Then the choice for the human player is not, yes or no, but when.

(in reply to Ares106)
Post #: 18
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 8:46:39 PM   
Chet Guiles

 

Posts: 267
Joined: 6/14/2002
From: Southern CA
Status: offline 		I always arm my gas mining stations and mining stations with whatever weapons are available early in the game. It is usualkly enough to kill off one or two puirates tryintg a raid. I also use any targeting or defensive method available. Unarmed mining facilities are easy pickings for pirates.

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Post #: 19
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 9:23:34 PM   
RooksBailey


Posts: 80
Joined: 11/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: themetalcrow

that's cool but do you guys feel this is an exploit or have you seen ai empires arming their mining stations as well or what?


Going forward, I think DW does need to better define roles for ships and stations. Ship classes need more definition (the new carriers are a step in the right direction and a good example of what I mean), and freighters and bases need to be less free-form both to avoid possible exploits, as well as to make them more interesting for the player to research and design. For example, I believe civilian freighters should not be able to carry military-grade blasters unless the player researches "merchants of war" on the tech tree to permit such a design (just an example). This would provide more structure to the design process, as well as give the AI a chance to match the players designs. Same for mining stations (the player starts with an unarmed version but can research a militarized one if he wishes).

< Message edited by RooksBailey -- 12/22/2011 9:31:41 PM >

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RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/22/2011 9:49:51 PM   
Gandalf


Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2010
From: Jefferson City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RooksBailey

quote:

ORIGINAL: themetalcrow

that's cool but do you guys feel this is an exploit or have you seen ai empires arming their mining stations as well or what?


Going forward, I think DW does need to better define roles for ships and stations. Ship classes need more definition (the new carriers are a step in the right direction and a good example of what I mean), and freighters and bases need to be less free-form both to avoid possible exploits, as well as to make them more interesting for the player to research and design. For example, I believe civilian freighters should not be able to carry military-grade blasters unless the player researches "merchants of war" on the tech tree to permit such a design (just an example). This would provide more structure to the design process, as well as give the AI a chance to match the players designs. Same for mining stations (the player starts with an unarmed version but can research a militarized one if he wishes).


I disagree with a zero weapon limitation on starting merchants and mining stations. That's when you need self defense the most. A limitation of 1 weapon on both starting merchants ships (as it is now) and 1 weapon on mining stations (which can have more than 1 weapon currently) wouldn't be a bad idea if it could be tied to research that gives increased mounting capabilities.

edit> Also, before any such limitation is implemented for mining stations, the capability to retrofit them somehow will have to be allowed.

< Message edited by Gandalf -- 12/22/2011 10:13:21 PM >

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Post #: 21
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/23/2011 3:41:40 PM   
Astax

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline 		I play with weapons on stations.  It saves me quite a bit of hassle.

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RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/23/2011 4:03:49 PM   
Krippakrull

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 4/23/2010
Status: offline 		I do arm some stuff as well, though it feels kind of wrong that the civilian sector has to pay for my heavily armed mining stations. To make it a harder choice, why not have the maintenance for any stations or ships that's more than a gun or two come out of the state budget? That way I'd still build pretty beefy mining stations at critical locations, but be hard pressed to make each and every station being able to single handedly beat most pirates.

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Post #: 23
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/25/2011 3:43:05 AM   
the1sean


Posts: 854
Joined: 5/11/2010
From: Texas, USA
Status: offline 		Elliot plans to release the next update for Legends sometime around late January. It will overhaul ship design, and will also include ship design files for each race. I will personally be updating those design files with lightly armed stations for ALL empires. The AI Empires will have their day in the sun!

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Post #: 24
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/25/2011 9:20:14 AM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ares106


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

You can put weapons on any station in game and they will still function in the role they were designed for. And they do quite the job of defending themselves.

My personal preference for stations is 6 shields and 6 Maxos blasters. Takes quite a while before pirates can get strong enough to over-power that.

but is it cost effective? assuming normal pirates on average distance.


Only cost for the private sectors, not the state. So becareful not to go too far or they can go bankrupted.

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Post #: 25
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/25/2011 9:54:50 AM   
MartialDoctor


Posts: 388
Joined: 3/7/2011
Status: offline 		Putting shields and weapons on mining stations will increase the upkeep dramatically and is not really cost effective.  It will hamper your ability to expand without giving much return benefit.

It's much more cost effective to either pay off the pirates or defend your stations with small, patrolling fleets.


< Message edited by MartialDoctor -- 12/25/2011 9:58:41 AM >

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Post #: 26
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/26/2011 2:35:17 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

Elliot plans to release the next update for Legends sometime around late January. It will overhaul ship design, and will also include ship design files for each race. I will personally be updating those design files with lightly armed stations for ALL empires. The AI Empires will have their day in the sun!


Definately will be as well, will probably make the AI designs similar in power and defense as my own, but each with its own unique design features.

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RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/26/2011 3:17:22 PM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2428
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean
Elliot plans to release the next update for Legends sometime around late January. It will overhaul ship design, and will also include ship design files for each race. I will personally be updating those design files with lightly armed stations for ALL empires. The AI Empires will have their day in the sun!

Definately will be as well, will probably make the AI designs similar in power and defense as my own, but each with its own unique design features.

quote:

Definately will be as well, will probably make the AI designs similar in power and defense as my own, but each with its own unique design features.


Which means I am probably going to get my tail kicked between my shoulders... and that is good.

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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

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Post #: 28
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/26/2011 5:26:56 PM   
Gelatinous Cube


Posts: 696
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Krippakrull

I do arm some stuff as well, though it feels kind of wrong that the civilian sector has to pay for my heavily armed mining stations. To make it a harder choice, why not have the maintenance for any stations or ships that's more than a gun or two come out of the state budget? That way I'd still build pretty beefy mining stations at critical locations, but be hard pressed to make each and every station being able to single handedly beat most pirates.


The most realistic solution would be to keep a running tally of "Defense Costs" for civilian ships and bases. You would tally up all the firepower, and it would equate to a certain annual cost that represents ammo, training, merchant marines, ect. You would then make the state pay for the Firepower, and the civilians pay for the rest.

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Post #: 29
RE: weaponizing mining stations - 12/26/2011 11:15:22 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube


quote:

ORIGINAL: Krippakrull

I do arm some stuff as well, though it feels kind of wrong that the civilian sector has to pay for my heavily armed mining stations. To make it a harder choice, why not have the maintenance for any stations or ships that's more than a gun or two come out of the state budget? That way I'd still build pretty beefy mining stations at critical locations, but be hard pressed to make each and every station being able to single handedly beat most pirates.


The most realistic solution would be to keep a running tally of "Defense Costs" for civilian ships and bases. You would tally up all the firepower, and it would equate to a certain annual cost that represents ammo, training, merchant marines, ect. You would then make the state pay for the Firepower, and the civilians pay for the rest.


That depends though, if you do a Star Wars mod, then civilian ships were armed by default. Civilian ships were limited in how much firepower they could carry (like now), but stations were not.

I think some hard codes by be better.

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