RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids)

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/19/2011 3:51:17 AM

krupp_88mm

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quote:

With 54 turns left its not looking good,

i agree about the problesm buttt

sure there are 54 turns left but at least 8 or more of those are in bad weather and will be time to recover slightly so its really more like 45 left. Hes still wayyyy ahead of historical lines.. hundreds and hundreds of miles in some spots, he can pull back and shorten his front, he can ride trains back while the russians will have to march through occupied territory, if i were tarhunas id think seriously about railing back my norther front to east germany after mud is over to start fort construction and R&R, let him walk to your river lines, the terrain is very favorable for defense so even those ants can put up a stubborn delay. I dont know about the game definitions for victory or defeat but i personally consider anything beyond the historical end date of the war (for captured berlin a vic and anything less defeat.

< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 12/19/2011 3:58:14 AM >

(in reply to Peltonx)

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/19/2011 9:35:37 AM

janh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
2.3 million is the breaking point.

The mud will slow him then the flood gates open.

With 54 turns left its not looking good, I dought you get a draw even. Once he pockets a few units all your replasements get dumped into usless units. That really needs to get fixed at some point.

The problem late in war is its so easy for the Red machine to break German army. Once broken you are helpless, because you cant recover. The logistics is a really screwed up part of the game for both sides.

Yes... You survived a lot longer already than I would have expected, great work on your side. You are positioned still very well in the North, and the Soviets will have to march steadily to get to Berlin by spring. Now you probably reached the tipping point for a self-accelerating process until he reaches Berlin. Ideally your opponent could make some leaps forward in full strength, wrecking and maybe pocketing parts of the Axis Army, but after a few 100 miles he ought to at least need to rest and wait for resupply on part of his force, and perhaps even have to wait for the railheads to catch up. Guess that won't happen and he can now rather continuously advance as your Wehrmacht falls apart. I am curious to see how quick the advance will be as it may shed some light on the degree that logistics is too forgiving.

I think it is related to the German advance in 41, although the effect might naturally be worse for the much larger Red Army once it is ready to roll. They really ought to take a closer look at logistics. I rather have a harder time reaching Moscow, Leningrad or Rostov by November 41 and in return be able to survive into summer 45 (assuming I do better...) instead of seeing the Wehrmacht disintegrate and never recover.
Instead of discussing C&C issues that is what the WiTE community should ask about in first instance. With logistics being tighter, I believe a lot of "strange phenomena" from the high op-tempo when advancing far ahead of supply lines, the ability to sustain large-scale offensives for very long periods after summer 41, the ease of Lvov or in correspondingly the crushing of the late war German lines, the race for Leningrad, the powerful spring offensives, etc. would be mitigated largely. Also the leadership would become more crucial and here the Germans already have the benefit of better C&C shown by significantly better chances on successful dice roles.
Would there be any negative effects to tighter logistics? Perhaps the advance in the South in 41 would even become slower, particularly if Axis fails to make the Lvov pocket or an even large Kiev pocket, given Lvov left these units alive. I keep wondering how the Germans could get to Rostov in 41, and the only answer I have is that the Kiev pocket came at the right time and right size, and as a big surprise, so that afterward the Germans could advance thru a vacuum without much organized resistance left.

I also agree that the Germans should be allowed to decided (at least after a certain date) which units to rebuild, and which not. And also should be given some freedom like the Soviets to build additional units. Support units at the very least, resources for the rest might be tight anyway. Also HQ's would be an important addition. Right now your replacements should all go to your remaining frontline units if you wanted to stay somewhat competitive.
Alternatively, also give the Soviets a historically fixed schedule for building new units, and allow only a similar automatic replacement of destroyed ones. Dealing up AP costs for the Soviets and in return offering them a large AP pool or addition rate sounds like a bad idea to me, since they can be used for so many things that could improve the Red Army much more than the auto-rebuild, poor morale units that will eat up valuable replacements as well...

< Message edited by janh -- 12/19/2011 9:43:25 AM >

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/19/2011 10:36:42 AM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

Yes... You survived a lot longer already than I would have expected, great work on your side. You are positioned still very well in the North, and the Soviets will have to march steadily to get to Berlin by spring. Now you probably reached the tipping point for a self-accelerating process until he reaches Berlin. Ideally your opponent could make some leaps forward in full strength, wrecking and maybe pocketing parts of the Axis Army, but after a few 100 miles he ought to at least need to rest and wait for resupply on part of his force, and perhaps even have to wait for the railheads to catch up. Guess that won't happen and he can now rather continuously advance as your Wehrmacht falls apart. I am curious to see how quick the advance will be as it may shed some light on the degree that logistics is too forgiving.

I sincerely think that his northern position is a house of cards. I would have the Finns to fall back towards Leningrad and fight there their last battle.

If the center crumbles - and it will probably happen sooner or later - then AGN right flank will be in the air (what actually happened back in summer 1944). I think that Krupp (?) suggestion of starting to retire towards Eastern Prussia isn't such a bad idea. Even with the forgiving logistics, if he manages to get gids to chase him, his troops will be crap, ten or fifteen hexes away from their railheads.

quote:

ORIGINAL: janh
I think it is related to the German advance in 41, although the effect might naturally be worse for the much larger Red Army once it is ready to roll. They really ought to take a closer look at logistics. I rather have a harder time reaching Moscow, Leningrad or Rostov by November 41 and in return be able to survive into summer 45 (assuming I do better...) instead of seeing the Wehrmacht disintegrate and never recover.

I agree with you janh - or I think so. This thing of constraining the Axis so much w.r.t. to organization never has made much sense. I wonder if committing to "alternate" organizations, such as mechanized brigades would perhaps work well. And auto-rebuilds aren't really a good thing for either side. To be honest, playing as the soviet during 1941 I'd have loved to have an option to control this rather than having to control it by clicking way too many times on the Commander's Report to switch off Refit status.

quote:

ORIGINAL: janh
Instead of discussing C&C issues that is what the WiTE community should ask about in first instance. With logistics being tighter, I believe a lot of "strange phenomena" from the high op-tempo when advancing far ahead of supply lines, the ability to sustain large-scale offensives for very long periods after summer 41, the ease of Lvov or in correspondingly the crushing of the late war German lines, the race for Leningrad, the powerful spring offensives, etc. would be mitigated largely. Also the leadership would become more crucial and here the Germans already have the benefit of better C&C shown by significantly better chances on successful dice roles.
Would there be any negative effects to tighter logistics? Perhaps the advance in the South in 41 would even become slower, particularly if Axis fails to make the Lvov pocket or an even large Kiev pocket, given Lvov left these units alive. I keep wondering how the Germans could get to Rostov in 41, and the only answer I have is that the Kiev pocket came at the right time and right size, and as a big surprise, so that afterward the Germans could advance thru a vacuum without much organized resistance left.

I think you got the right answer, janh.

quote:

ORIGINAL: janh
I also agree that the Germans should be allowed to decided (at least after a certain date) which units to rebuild, and which not. And also should be given some freedom like the Soviets to build additional units. Support units at the very least, resources for the rest might be tight anyway. Also HQ's would be an important addition. Right now your replacements should all go to your remaining frontline units if you wanted to stay somewhat competitive.

Yes, though I don't see much room for maneuver for the Axis, given its lack of strategic depth. As I said above trying to fight with Panzer Brigades, rather than Panzer Divisions that will never be with high TOE levels, and especially, having part if not all of German SU's becoming on-map units (so their Refit status can be adjusted at leisure) is part of the answer (btw, check the Campaign mod by TAIL_GUNNER, he does this and I do sincerely think this might be a very good idea).

quote:

ORIGINAL: janh
Alternatively, also give the Soviets a historically fixed schedule for building new units, and allow only a similar automatic replacement of destroyed ones. Dealing up AP costs for the Soviets and in return offering them a large AP pool or addition rate sounds like a bad idea to me, since they can be used for so many things that could improve the Red Army much more than the auto-rebuild, poor morale units that will eat up valuable replacements as well...

I do sincerely think auto-rebuilds should be something left entirely out of the game, or at least, becoming an optional game setting for both sides.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/19/2011 1:00:06 PM

Flaviusx

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I hate to admit it, but the ponies are starting to grow on me.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/19/2011 3:07:36 PM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I hate to admit it, but the ponies are starting to grow on me.

If he replaced the drafted painting with an operational map and the pony herself was dressed in feldgrau, I will make that my forum signature :D

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/20/2011 1:23:28 AM

krupp_88mm

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quote:

If he replaced the drafted painting with an operational map and the pony herself was dressed in feldgrau, I will make that my forum signature :D

What a fabulous idea

ill get right to work on that outfit!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji0tpUM8DfU&feature=player_embedded

< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 12/20/2011 1:29:42 AM >

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/20/2011 1:38:24 PM

mmarquo

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Depending on the TOE, your forts represent a very large manpower sink. Consider disbanding every unnecessary fort, especially those occupied by another fighting unit.

Marquo

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/20/2011 10:02:18 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Depending on the TOE, your forts represent a very large manpower sink. Consider disbanding every unnecessary fort, especially those occupied by another fighting unit.

Marquo

Yes, I have my doubts as to if they are cost effective. The fortifications they build are mostly swept away rather quickly.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/20/2011 10:03:43 PM

Tarhunnas

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Turn 173. October 5 1944.

The southern front is crumbling. Almost all units are now CV 1. Major withdrawals are necessary. Map after Axis moves.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/20/2011 10:05:12 PM

Tarhunnas

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East of Vinnitsa, another encirclement, and another breakout (or rather break-in).

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/20/2011 10:06:54 PM

Tarhunnas

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And in the North, withdrawals are also the order of the day. The Finns are now defending the Volchov, in rather good shape.

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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 12/20/2011 10:08:36 PM >

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/20/2011 10:15:27 PM

Tarhunnas

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Production turn 173. The manpower pool is growing by leaps and bounds...

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/21/2011 5:59:38 PM

Tarhunnas

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Turn 174. October 12 1944.

Well, mud finally came, but of course at an inopportune moment. I will never free those units now! The weather shift always before the Axist turn is really a big disadvantage to the Axis, especially at this stage of the war! With random eather, I think there should be a chance that it could change between player turns as well, to balance things out.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/21/2011 6:22:53 PM

Q-Ball

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....that is why I have come around to Random Weather. It's too easy for the Soviets to game it late in the game like that.

At least Non-Random, you can see that coming, and knowing that, I would have let those guys go the turn prior. Tough decision, though.

Losing the 2 SS Divisions really hurts. IIRC, you get Fresh SS in January, but this winter is going to be painful.

There is a problem with Late-War German armaments. You got the fix for the 47mm issue, but you are still running a deficit. My guess is that you are losing piles of guns in all the retreats, and that's eating-up all your armaments. I bet your artillery losses are very high.

This game has enough patches, etc, it's tough to look at it as a whole for fixes, but that one issue looks like a problem from here

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/21/2011 6:27:59 PM

Tarhunnas

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And an overview of the entire front.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/21/2011 6:32:30 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

....that is why I have come around to Random Weather. It's too easy for the Soviets to game it late in the game like that.

At least Non-Random, you can see that coming, and knowing that, I would have let those guys go the turn prior. Tough decision, though.

Losing the 2 SS Divisions really hurts. IIRC, you get Fresh SS in January, but this winter is going to be painful.

There is a problem with Late-War German armaments. You got the fix for the 47mm issue, but you are still running a deficit. My guess is that you are losing piles of guns in all the retreats, and that's eating-up all your armaments. I bet your artillery losses are very high.

This game has enough patches, etc, it's tough to look at it as a whole for fixes, but that one issue looks like a problem from here

I think it is when I lose whole units that get surrounded, it takes a lot of armaments to rebuild the lost divisions. That means the units at the front gets none. All my units except reinforcements are now at ant status. It seems I always get to this state sooner or later as Axis, has happened to me three times now. At least this time it took longer than before

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 12/21/2011 6:34:11 PM >

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/21/2011 6:38:15 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

....that is why I have come around to Random Weather. It's too easy for the Soviets to game it late in the game like that.

At least Non-Random, you can see that coming, and knowing that, I would have let those guys go the turn prior. Tough decision, though.

I think it's a disadvantage whichever way. With non-random, the Soviets can game it, with random it is likely to happen anyway as you will usually have some units cut off somewere each turn as the Axis. I just had bad luck it was so many of them this time and so good ones. But they are only about 1500 mean each, even the SS-divisions, so it's not as bad as it looks (but still pretty bad).

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/21/2011 7:45:22 PM

Q-Ball

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Here is a change I propose to the Devs: Allow the Germans to immediately disband re-constituted units.

That would solve your problem, as you would just disband the new unit, and that material would go back to the pool, and back to the front.

German players wont', and shouldn't, disband those units pre-1944. But there is no reason to WAIT for them to train back up when the Soviets are at the gates of Germany

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/21/2011 9:00:25 PM

Schmart

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Here is a change I propose to the Devs: Allow the Germans to immediately disband re-constituted units.

I think the best (and standardized) fix is to have all re-constituted units for both sides arrive on map as shells in depleted state. That way a player can choose/control how and when a re-built unit is build back up.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/23/2011 3:20:06 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

....that is why I have come around to Random Weather. It's too easy for the Soviets to game it late in the game like that.

At least Non-Random, you can see that coming, and knowing that, I would have let those guys go the turn prior. Tough decision, though.

Losing the 2 SS Divisions really hurts. IIRC, you get Fresh SS in January, but this winter is going to be painful.

There is a problem with Late-War German armaments. You got the fix for the 47mm issue, but you are still running a deficit. My guess is that you are losing piles of guns in all the retreats, and that's eating-up all your armaments. I bet your artillery losses are very high.

This game has enough patches, etc, it's tough to look at it as a whole for fixes, but that one issue looks like a problem from here

I think it is when I lose whole units that get surrounded, it takes a lot of armaments to rebuild the lost divisions. That means the units at the front gets none. All my units except reinforcements are now at ant status. It seems I always get to this state sooner or later as Axis, has happened to me three times now. At least this time it took longer than before

Yes this is a MAJOR PROBLEM that needs to be fixed asap.
I have been pushing for a fix to this exploit for several months and have gotten zero responce.

This same issue can be exploited during blizzard if the russian player builds his army for this problem. Once you get 2 or 3 divisions cut off this effect snowballs for the rest of the blizzard or in this case for the rest of the game, none of your front line units will get replasements. If Grids games the system as some Russian players do during blizzard he will only kill of 1 or 2 divisions per turn. this will bleed your front lines for the next 6 weeks.

Is your lose ratio anything close to historical?

Historical losses on Eastern front.

��German��-Russian��Ratio

1944
1st��423,000��1,859,000��-4.4 to 1
2nd��352,000��1,021,000��-3 to 1
3rd��879,000��1,771,000��-2 to 1
4th��297,000��1,086,000��-3.6 to 1

I hate being right, but even with the HUGE armaments hot patch your doomed.

You did far better then historical in killed ruusians, captured factorys, captured manpower and captured land and your still going to lose game more then likely.

The game is still fixed so that no matter how horrible the russian player plays the first 2 yrs the german will lose.

Which is not anything close to historically what happened.

Keep up the good fight.

I think the problem is German morale it drops way to fast, again not a reflection of history at all.

Pelton

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/23/2011 3:47:24 PM

ComradeP

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As explained before, newly reconstituted units arrive as shells.

As long as they're not the only units on refit, they won't consume the equipment/manpower you get during a turn, it's that simple. I agree that it can be annoying that they're frozen in refit state, but there is something you can do about it.

I'm also pretty sure you haven't been pushing for a fix "for several months" Pelton, as the discussions about the issue generally happened in the last month or so.

I'm not sure if there's going to be a "fix" considering that Gary intended the units to arrive like this and that there are ways to minimize the inconvenience of them being on refit.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/23/2011 4:33:08 PM

Flaviusx

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I personally have no problem in principle changing this up so that the Axis can buy eliminated units from the dead pool. They need more AP sinks anyways.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/23/2011 5:21:59 PM

Baelfiin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

As explained before, newly reconstituted units arrive as shells.

As long as they're not the only units on refit, they won't consume the equipment/manpower you get during a turn, it's that simple. I agree that it can be annoying that they're frozen in refit state, but there is something you can do about it.

I'm also pretty sure you haven't been pushing for a fix "for several months" Pelton, as the discussions about the issue generally happened in the last month or so.

I'm not sure if there's going to be a "fix" considering that Gary intended the units to arrive like this and that there are ways to minimize the inconvenience of them being on refit.

Im not seeing my surrounded dead germans showing up as shells that I can adjust refit on. They are showing up with with a lot of equipment and manpower, and the rest of the front is getting bupkis.
I also cant disband them right away. What is the work around that you use?

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/23/2011 5:32:13 PM

ComradeP

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They arrive as shells, the reason you don't see them arrive as shells is the same reason you don't see Soviet units arrive as shells if no other units are refitting: they take priority when it comes to replacements because they are refitting, and the replacement segment happens after their arrival (in the same logistics phase).

With more units in refit, the reconstituted units won't suck up substantial numbers of replacements, because the replacement system will divide them between refitting units.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/23/2011 5:34:12 PM >

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/23/2011 5:32:28 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

As explained before, newly reconstituted units arrive as shells.

As long as they're not the only units on refit, they won't consume the equipment/manpower you get during a turn, it's that simple. I agree that it can be annoying that they're frozen in refit state, but there is something you can do about it.

I'm also pretty sure you haven't been pushing for a fix "for several months" Pelton, as the discussions about the issue generally happened in the last month or so.

I'm not sure if there's going to be a "fix" considering that Gary intended the units to arrive like this and that there are ways to minimize the inconvenience of them being on refit.

Thats clearly not whats happening.

Come on there is a very simple fix.

Have it cost 1 ap to get a german unit back. That way 85 to90% of all replasements don't end up in the sht for moral units.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/23/2011 5:35:21 PM >

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/23/2011 5:33:14 PM

ComradeP

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It is, it just isn't happening to you because you're not refitting anything else seemingly.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/23/2011 5:36:54 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

It is, it just isn't happening to you because you're not refitting anything else seemingly.

I have refit on all armor and mech units and 25 to 50% of all infantry units based 100% on moral.

Its not working its broken no matter how deep you stick your head in the sand at least 85% of all replasements go to the pocketed units the turn they come back.

Its a very stupid rule set thats getting the sht exploited out of it.

Fix it.

Pelton

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/23/2011 5:40:28 PM

ComradeP

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It is not broken for Soviet units, and I have no reason to believe it's broken for German units either.

Another thing to keep in mind is that, like withdrawing units (which also go to refit mode automatically), you should be able to set the units to "ready" if they're frozen using the normal freezing rules. You can't change their TOE%, but you can decide whether you want them to refit or not, so they're frozen in refit stage for the logistics phase they arrive in, but you should have control over what happens after that.

I'm not sticking my head in the sand, I'm offering you facts. That you don't accept them is predictable, but it doesn't change the factual nature of what I'm saying.

quote:

Its a very stupid rule set thats getting the sht exploited out of it

The only rule in that category is the HQ build-up rule, but if that would be removed, you'd probably sell your copy of the game as you can't really play without it.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/23/2011 5:42:58 PM >

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/23/2011 5:43:00 PM

Peltonx

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How dam hard is it to have it cost 1 ap per unit?

Come on just fix the stupid thing.

Its clearly broken, you think Tarhunnas has none of his units on refit, WTH are you tring to kid?

Do you think Tarhunnass and myself are newbies or WTH?

Again when you can't refute whats clearly wrong you point fingers. Normal 2 by 3 MO.

Russians can build whatever they want and Germans can't even get you guys to turn most German replasements going to sht for moral units?

Just keep babysitting the Russian side as per normal.

Nothing wrong here poeple move along.

Its getting past the point of being funny guys to just plain lamo.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/23/2011 5:45:50 PM >

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/23/2011 5:43:16 PM

Flaviusx

Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
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Eh, 1 AP for any unit is rather on the cheap side. That's fine for SUs, but I think other units ought to cost more than that. Perhaps not as much the Soviet build costs (I don't demand perfect symmetry here unlike our pal Helio) but more than 1 AP. Say 5 APs for dead divisions, and 2 APs for regimental/brigade sized units, and 1 AP for all SUs.

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