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Comparison to War in the East

 
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Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 12:02:16 AM   
Johnpilot

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 12/25/2011
Status: offline 		Hi;

Forgive a possible naive question, but how does this compare to War in the East? I haven't followed Matrix much lately, but have some Christmas cash to spend :) any recommendations?

Thanks.

John
Post #: 1
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 12:33:11 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		ok.. war in the east.. massive.. huge lots of detail lots and lots of units... turns may take hours
much simpler and easier.. imo more "fun"
this game has a greater scope.. the air war  the western EU theatre etc.. the med. They are totally and completely different..
I own both and while I love WITE, it is ponderous.... a true grog game...

the ? I would ask you is do you like giant games with tones of interactic and challenging rules...wite..
or
do you want a simpler easy to play broader game with lots of abstraction? each play two player or against ai well

(in reply to Johnpilot)
Post #: 2
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 12:41:08 AM   
Johnpilot

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 12/25/2011
Status: offline 		Thanks for the thoughts. I guess both have an appeal, and especially with WITE having the discount. I have been reading some of the threads and was surprised to see that some think ToF is very abstracted in many areas.

Sounds like ToF now and maybe WITE later as I really don't want to have to spend hours getting ready for each move.

john

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 3
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 1:06:53 AM   
stone10


Posts: 238
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline 		You probably want to wait for War in the West.

(in reply to Johnpilot)
Post #: 4
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 2:23:31 AM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 6722
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stone10

You probably want to wait for War in the West.


Is that a joke, or is there going to be a War in the West by Grigsby?

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Post #: 5
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 2:27:13 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		yes to war in the west .. but awhile off..


(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 6
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 2:49:25 AM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

yes to war in the west .. but awhile off..


and then followed by War in Europe ... SPI is reborn!


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Post #: 7
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 4:59:11 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I don't see a war in Europe..
and frankly am not excited about witw until the issues in wite get resolved..
but we stray..
Again what are you looking for .. simple and easy realy hard and complex?

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 8
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 7:31:59 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		The map,counter's and use of corps make ToF a lot like Avalon Hill Third Reich boardgame.WitE has a lot more detail and flexability and it just covers east front.

(in reply to Johnpilot)
Post #: 9
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 7:38:30 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander
The map,counter's and use of corps make ToF a lot like Avalon Hill Third Reich boardgame.WitE has a lot more detail and flexability and it just covers east front.


I'm not sure about flexibility in WiTE, your'e on a long one-way trip to Berlin, the variation is in what date the Soviets get there, at least ToW can change the plot.


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to bairdlander2)
Post #: 10
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 7:45:59 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		I mean inflexible as in Im playing GC as Axis and cant attack France in '39 or DoW any country I want like Belgium.

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 11
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 8:11:17 PM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		You can attack if you declare war first.

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Post #: 12
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 8:51:24 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		I cant declare war

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Post #: 13
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 9:10:16 PM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		We have no problem declaring war.

Use the diplomacy panel.

(in reply to bairdlander2)
Post #: 14
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 9:34:54 PM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander
The map,counter's and use of corps make ToF a lot like Avalon Hill Third Reich boardgame.WitE has a lot more detail and flexability and it just covers east front.


AH3R was a very different scale:

  • each turn was 3 months long
  • Holland and Belgium were 1 hex each (maybe two for Belgium)?
  • Ships were calculated in anonymous 'fleets' of up to nine factors - I think UK started the game with six * nine factor fleets = VERY abstract.
  • I don't remember submarines in AHTR ???


AH3R was a lot of fun in the 1970s/80s but is nothing like WiTE or ToF ... except that it covered WWII in Europe.

_____________________________

/Greyshaft

(in reply to bairdlander2)
Post #: 15
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 9:38:17 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		Sorry Greystick I dont remember 20 years ago.I should have clarified it "reminds" me of AH 3R

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 16
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 9:39:47 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

We have no problem declaring war.

Use the diplomacy panel.

I did,all choices are blacked out

(in reply to Razz1)
Post #: 17
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 9:52:38 PM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander
Sorry Greystick I dont remember 20 years ago.I should have clarified it "reminds" me of AH 3R


That's 'Greyshaft' , not 'Greystick'

If this wasn't a family forum I'd tell you how I got the nickname back in my University days


_____________________________

/Greyshaft

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Post #: 18
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 10:03:27 PM   
rjh1971


Posts: 4919
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner


quote:

ORIGINAL: stone10

You probably want to wait for War in the West.


Is that a joke, or is there going to be a War in the West by Grigsby?

No joke, it's underworks.

_____________________________


GG's AWD, GG's WBTS, GG's WitE Beta Tester
Beta Tester: Panzer Corps, Time of Fury, CtGW, DC CB, DC3 Barbarossa, SC WWII WiE, SC WWII WaW, SC WWI

(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 19
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/26/2011 11:27:28 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander
The map,counter's and use of corps make ToF a lot like Avalon Hill Third Reich boardgame.WitE has a lot more detail and flexability and it just covers east front.


I'm not sure about flexibility in WiTE, your'e on a long one-way trip to Berlin, the variation is in what date the Soviets get there, at least ToW can change the plot.



This game is indeed wildly and fantastically flexible. Anything can happen. Historicity is not its strong suit. It's fun, but it's not WW2.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 20
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/27/2011 1:20:35 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander
The map,counter's and use of corps make ToF a lot like Avalon Hill Third Reich boardgame.WitE has a lot more detail and flexability and it just covers east front.

I'm not sure about flexibility in WiTE, your'e on a long one-way trip to Berlin, the variation is in what date the Soviets get there, at least ToW can change the plot.

This game is indeed wildly and fantastically flexible. Anything can happen. Historicity is not its strong suit. It's fun, but it's not WW2.


All games have to entertain if they are to succeed and it is an overstatement to say that anything can happen in TOF, but it has to be an advantage in re-play, if each game has the possibility of a different, but reasonably plausible, outcome.

Yeh, I know, what's reasonable and what's plausible, but you get the idea.


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 21
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/27/2011 1:44:54 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Flaviusx, if you are referring to the Easy Sea Lion, then it is rather a matter of gamebalance.

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Post #: 22
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/27/2011 6:46:55 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		On the thread.

You can't compare this game to WitE.

Just like you can't compare say SPI's World War II to SPI's War in the East. Two different types of games. One is strategic in scope and the other is operational in scope. You have to understand the 'intent' or scope of the game. TOF is strategic in scope and generally follows a somewhat realistic historical back drop, although this can dramatically change within a few turns into something that is not WW2 for example. In WitE, you won't see this happen since it's based solely on historical events.

For another comparison, in TOF and SPI's WW2, or AH's Third Reich (I would actually rate this game more like a combo of AH's Advanced Third Reich meets ADG's Down in Flames) you are the 'leader' of a country. In WitE (or SPI's War in the East or even GDW's Fire in the East/Scorched Earth) you are not the 'leader' but instead assume the role of say OKH. What that boils down to is in the role of the 'leader' you can determine weather or not to launch a Sea Lion type of operation or when to strike at France or Russia as the German 'leader'. In games that are operational in scope you don't have that luxury. The 'leader' has taken away your 'political' abilities and your job is to 'run' the Army High Command and all the various Armies, Corps and Divisions there in.

So you can't really compare this TOF against that WITE it does not make sense.

You can compare TOF to say Strategic Command WWII Global Conflict however. Or to say HOI.


_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 23
RE: Comparison to War in the East - 12/29/2011 3:31:53 PM   
jjdenver

 

Posts: 2247
Joined: 11/2/2007
Status: offline 		I'll chime in just to agree. I've played both (have spent more time with WITE than TOF) and they are completely different games.

At this moment TOF is not really WW2 and it's much more abstract than WITE. WITE is also not really Russian Front imo because there are still game balance issues or bugs that make the later years play out in a very funny way. They are working on this as probably TOF is working on balancing out its game and fixing bugs. But probably WITE is farther along in this process since it's been out a year.

TOF is fun to play but has some annoying bugs and game design issues that may be fixed given a few more months. TOF also is very hard to understand from a player perspective. By this I mean you won't know what is happening sometimes. The game mechanics seem shrouded in mystery and there is not very good documentation about the game. By this I don't mean fog of war, I mean just inability of the player to understand how to do things or why things are happening - which is different than fog of war.

WITE dev team went to great lengths to very carefully explain to players everything happening in the game and how it happens. However it still has FOW so while playing the game obviously you can't see everything your opponent is doing.

TOF has naval while WITE does not. TOF naval is pretty fiddly to play since you have to go into a separate window when you click on each sea zone before you can move any ships in that SZ. Also you have to click on individual CV's for example to use them. So if you have 3 task forces in a SZ and one has a CV in it, you have to click on the SZ. Then click on the right TF in the window that opens. Then click on the CV in that TF, then click on the Recon button then click on the SZ where you want to recon. Then click on your SZ again. Then click on the TF with the CV. Then click on the CV in that TF. Then click on the Air Strike button then click on the SZ where you want to air strike. Then click on a box to close the results of the air strike. All of this just to launch a recon and an air strike from your CV TF. Lots of clicking and it becomes very tiresome.

Overall both are fun, but TOF is probably more frustrating to play right now. WITE is a very "heavy" game though and will take tons of time to play - so it depends on your preference. If you like detail, realism, and the ability to really get into the details of what's going on and understand everything happening - WITE is the right game. If you like a higher level game, a simpler game, the ability to control a navy and make political decisions (only against AI you can't make them in PBEM) then TOF is the right choice probably.

< Message edited by jjdenver -- 12/29/2011 4:30:42 PM >

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