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Will there be any change to production?

 
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Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 1:08:22 AM   
Wild


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Hi guys. I have not played the game in sometime (since ver 1.03 i think), i couldn't get past the idea that Heavy Industry was meaningless also not being able to change tank types like we can aircraft resulting in massive frustration in not being able to get armor out of my pools. Has there been or will there be any change to these issues? or will i have to shelve the game until WitE2.

It really saddens me because i have always looked forward to a game like this as my dream game, but the production issues just ruin the immersion for me and leave me frustrated.
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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 2:10:18 AM   
Baelfiin


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I cant speak to the HI = meaningless or changing tank types, but I think the game is tremendously better than it was in 1.03 8)

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 2:20:20 AM   
Farfarer61

 

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The game is way better, but I don't thing HI losses are yet integrated the system. If the HI was actually surplus to Sov needs (expendable) then I recommend the evil Axis be able to capture and use it to good effect. I also don't undersatnd the popluation migration - gotta love those isolated Byelorussian citizens decamping to Vladivostok :0

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 2:30:41 AM   
randallw

 

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Aren't you aware of the massive hidden tunnel system that was built by moles?  It was built under the 10 year plan, began in 1929.

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 2:47:23 AM   
jzardos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

Hi guys. I have not played the game in sometime (since ver 1.03 i think), i couldn't get past the idea that Heavy Industry was meaningless also not being able to change tank types like we can aircraft resulting in massive frustration in not being able to get armor out of my pools. Has there been or will there be any change to these issues? or will i have to shelve the game until WitE2.

It really saddens me because i have always looked forward to a game like this as my dream game, but the production issues just ruin the immersion for me and leave me frustrated.


Feel your pain Wild. Unfortunately nothing has been done to fix some of the production issues and realism. I think the devs don't care to comment or do anything about this. Oh well, they busy on WitW. We can only hope they fix it there and port it back later (2013) back to WitE. Wish some of the devs for WitPAE had helped in WitE, they were able to allow the Japanese some nice flexibility within production. That would have been great in the last year WitE has been out to do the same for the Axis.


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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 2:55:38 AM   
Wild


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Thanks for the responses guys, but i don't think i can go back to playing until some of the unfair production issues for the Germans are addressed or at least commented on by the devs.

The whole stick it to the Germans and let the Soviets do whatever they want thing has really soured me.
I guess if i enjoyed playing the Soviets everything would be fine, but i wish to play the Axis. I don't mind having no chance to win but let my gaming experiance be fun!! Please let me use the armor in my pools,please allow me to capture enemy industry and let it count for something. Just fixing these 2 issue would increase my gaming experiance 100 fold. But it seems like no one cares. Very frustrating.

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 3:08:35 AM   
Aurelian

 

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No need to fix what is not broken.

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 3:15:45 AM   
Wild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

No need to fix what is not broken.



This is exactly the attitude i was refering to. Do you wish to destroy your customer base for upcoming titles in this series?

I find your casual dismissal of customers concerns insulting.

By giving the Germans some flexability you will only be helping make the rest of your line more attractive to Axis players. By dismissing us it only wants to make me dismiss your products.


< Message edited by Wild -- 1/3/2012 3:30:19 AM >

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 5:20:58 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

No need to fix what is not broken.



This is exactly the attitude i was refering to. Do you wish to destroy your customer base for upcoming titles in this series?

I find your casual dismissal of customers concerns insulting.

By giving the Germans some flexability you will only be helping make the rest of your line more attractive to Axis players. By dismissing us it only wants to make me dismiss your products.



The game far far better for sure, but the stick it to the Germans is still the redneck mind set of 2 by 3.

HVy means nothing as when you played.
Manpower still magicly moves east, but the out put was lowered so it is more realistic
Replasement system is silly, still a nice little exploit that the russian player can use.
National morale system is silly. If German player does better then historical NM is still forsed down for no reason. If the russian player is doing far worse then historical his morale is forsed up. This one thing alone is the biggest built in Russian I win button.
1v1=2v1 is removed after March 1942. Big help.
Air field spamming basicly fixed. Air war is in need of a total over haul. It works but not that great. 10,000's of russian tanks were destoryed by Stuka's but under the current system this cant happen.

Game is 100% better now then before, but still needs allot of help.

Most German players still don't stand a snowballs chance in hell of getting to late 1944. The learning curve on the German side is very steep.
Russian side you can get the hang of game after 1 or 2 games.

I free the way you do but play anyways. If I was you I still play. As you can atleast put in your 2 cents on these boards or witw's boards.

I can't wait for witw boards to open up hehehe.

Pelton



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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 7:28:44 AM   
Wild


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I admire your spirit Pelton.

But i can't see myself playing again until the concerns of many Axis players are treated as serious matters for discusion and not simply blown off.

By giving the Germans just a little more flexability over their Army, they could improve the enjoyment of much of their customer base, but for whatever reason they are unwilling. I personally think it is not a wise decision for them, but hell what do i know.

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 7:52:16 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

No need to fix what is not broken.



This is exactly the attitude i was refering to. Do you wish to destroy your customer base for upcoming titles in this series?

I find your casual dismissal of customers concerns insulting.

By giving the Germans some flexability you will only be helping make the rest of your line more attractive to Axis players. By dismissing us it only wants to make me dismiss your products.



1: I don't have a customer base.

2: If you choose to be insulted, by all means feel that way.

3: You claim that it's an issue to be fixed.

A: It doesn't need fixing, as it isn't broken.

B: It was decided long ago how production would be done. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2166477&mpage=1&key=free%2Cproduction

C: The Soviets get huge pools as well. And they can't choose who gets T-34s vs Matildas either. And yet, I still play.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 1/3/2012 8:00:04 AM >

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 1:04:43 PM   
invernomuto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

This is exactly the attitude i was refering to. Do you wish to destroy your customer base for upcoming titles in this series?

I find your casual dismissal of customers concerns insulting.

By giving the Germans some flexability you will only be helping make the rest of your line more attractive to Axis players. By dismissing us it only wants to make me dismiss your products.



Maybe there will be some minor tweaks on production system but don't expect major change in any part of WITE at this stage of development.
As for production, WITE is an OPERATIONAL wargame, production should be fixed and not under player control.
BTW, Soviet player does not have control over what is being produced: the replacement rates are fixed, you cannot increase T-34 factories.
Soviet player can create new on map unit and new SU (I'd prefer a system based on historical dates / replacemtent rates for unit and SU creation in an operational game).


Bye.

< Message edited by invernomuto -- 1/3/2012 1:08:44 PM >


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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 4:12:47 PM   
marty_01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

(I'd prefer a system based on historical dates / replacemtent rates for unit and SU creation in an operational game).


Bye.


+1

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 7:43:44 PM   
Joel Billings


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


The game far far better for sure, but the stick it to the Germans is still the redneck mind set of 2 by 3.





I'm sorry, but this is so insulting. You really think we are a bunch of redneck minds sitting here thinking of how to stick it to the Germans? Really? I have to admit when I see this kind of post it takes away any motivation to read the rest of the post and often the rest of the thread and I'm sure there are others that are working on WitE that feel the same way.

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 8:48:11 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


The game far far better for sure, but the stick it to the Germans is still the redneck mind set of 2 by 3.





I'm sorry, but this is so insulting. You really think we are a bunch of redneck minds sitting here thinking of how to stick it to the Germans? Really? I have to admit when I see this kind of post it takes away any motivation to read the rest of the post and often the rest of the thread and I'm sure there are others that are working on WitE that feel the same way.


Typical Pelton. Seems like warning him about this hasn't had any effect.

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 8:57:48 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


The game far far better for sure, but the stick it to the Germans is still the redneck mind set of 2 by 3.





I'm sorry, but this is so insulting. You really think we are a bunch of redneck minds sitting here thinking of how to stick it to the Germans? Really? I have to admit when I see this kind of post it takes away any motivation to read the rest of the post and often the rest of the thread and I'm sure there are others that are working on WitE that feel the same way.


I think it's insulting that the game was conceived with the ability to track, as someone else said poignantly, every MG42 on the Eastern Front, and yet SMGs are superior to rifle squads in the combat model and 2 biplanes with untested pilots outperform one Me109 piloted by Adolf Galland himself. I think it's absurd that Soviets have superior C&C to Germany in 1941 and that the Soviet command structure is significantly more flexible than Germany's.

I think it's insulting, quite frankly, that I've been a beta tester for the last 13 months, not even for War in the East, but for War in the West, and the privilege cost me $90.($10 was for a manual that was out of date and wrong when it was printed for my purchase after Christmas of 2010, and you've never offered me so much as in-store credit for this outright fraud, so put that in your poor beset upon insulted heart and smoke it).

I don't think you're rednecks, but I do think you have no idea of your own biases as a production unit, and you're bias is significant in favor of the Soviet Union. If WitP were balanced mechanically the way that WitE is, the Japanese would be forced to comply with their historical pilot training output, they'd be forced to take the same pathway to Midway at the same time in 1942 (codebreaking, you know), and forced into the same god-awful approach to the land war in China. Meanwhile, the US would put Essex class anti-aircraft and radar on Yorktown-class carriers in June of 1942 without restriction.

You've had me beta-testing your product for $90 for the last 13 months meanwhile you've admitted no confidence in the WitE combat engine so you're creating a better-balanced one for WitW while telling me the lessons learned from the WitE combat model will not be ported back to WitE. Any lessons learned from WitE will be released in a future title similar in scope and design to WitE but that I'll have to pay for.

THAT is what I find insulting. What Pelton said is simply emotionally driven, vented hyperbole, and I'm surprised you can't tell the difference.

Now you have a meaningful, no-ad-hominem criticism of the company and the product. You're welcome.

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 9:13:49 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

...I have to admit when I see this kind of post it takes away any motivation to read the rest of the post and often the rest of the thread and I'm sure there are others that are working on WitE that feel the same way.


Agreed.


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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 11:08:01 PM   
randallw

 

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There seems to be this belief that the Soviet side can build formations with no historical restrictions, and that itself is a form of histrionic hyperbole.

The restriction of German formation building doesn't mean the Soviets can build anything they want at any time. The tank and rifle corps merging happen on a historical timetable, as do the construction of motor/mech brigades, artillery/rocket units, and whatever else.

Some of you guys exaggerate the details, which doesn't help your argument.

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/3/2012 11:38:30 PM   
Aurelian

 

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Both sides go through TOE changes for example.

Don't see many, if any, Soviet players complaining "My big tank divisions changed into tiny brigades. OMG the pro Axis game design!!!"

The constant accuasations leveled at 2by3 et al are more than getting old.

Thank the forum makers for the green button.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 1/3/2012 11:47:15 PM >

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/4/2012 5:28:44 AM   
Wild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Both sides go through TOE changes for example.

Don't see many, if any, Soviet players complaining "My big tank divisions changed into tiny brigades. OMG the pro Axis game design!!!"

The constant accuasations leveled at 2by3 et al are more than getting old.

Thank the forum makers for the green button.


Of course you don't see Soviet players complaining.They have things to good so there is no need to rock the boat.
I hope your statement about the green button applies to me as your last response was less than useless.

Now, i have enjoyed 2by3's games more than any other company. I own most if not all of them. I have always thought Joel very helpful and pleasent when he has responded to any of my issues.
But in this case nobody responds to the Axis players concerns except to deny that there is any validity to our complaints.

Would it hurt to throw us a bone. How hard would it be to let us create some small independent units for some AP cost or to be able to change tank types within reason like we can with planes. Most German players are getting frustrated because they can't get armor out of their pools when they are needed.
It really saps a lot of the fun of an already scripted German side.



< Message edited by Wild -- 1/4/2012 5:34:25 AM >

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/4/2012 6:45:33 AM   
Gandalf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

Of course you don't see Soviet players complaining.They have things to good so there is no need to rock the boat.
I hope your statement about the green button applies to me as your last response was less than useless.

Now, i have enjoyed 2by3's games more than any other company. I own most if not all of them. I have always thought Joel very helpful and pleasent when he has responded to any of my issues.
But in this case nobody responds to the Axis players concerns except to deny that there is any validity to our complaints.

Would it hurt to throw us a bone. How hard would it be to let us create some small independent units for some AP cost or to be able to change tank types within reason like we can with planes. Most German players are getting frustrated because they can't get armor out of their pools when they are needed.
It really saps a lot of the fun of an already scripted German side.




+1

I purchased this game in a knee jerk reaction when it was first released since I believed it could have been the worthy successor to the original War In the East/War In Europe board game. I no longer believe this game rates that worthy title and have absolutely no intention to purchase Grigsby's WitE when it come out since it obviously will be based on similar design limitations/flaws. Just my $.02

Clumsy manual boardgame or not. I derived much more pleasure with the simplicity of that original SPI design than this flawed and overly complex one sided design being offered up as a computerized replacement.

< Message edited by Gandalf -- 1/4/2012 7:28:24 AM >

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/4/2012 8:43:15 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Both sides go through TOE changes for example.

Don't see many, if any, Soviet players complaining "My big tank divisions changed into tiny brigades. OMG the pro Axis game design!!!"

The constant accuasations leveled at 2by3 et al are more than getting old.

Thank the forum makers for the green button.


Of course you don't see Soviet players complaining.They have things to good so there is no need to rock the boat.
I hope your statement about the green button applies to me as your last response was less than useless.




Yeah, sure, they have it so good.

Jump on the bash 2by3 bandwagon if you wish.

It would serve you well to look at your posts before you sling about the word useless. (Which is funny after reading your oh so helpful musings.)

But, it is so much easier to whine.

And insult those who don't see things your way.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 1/4/2012 8:52:03 AM >

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/4/2012 10:37:38 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild
But in this case nobody responds to the Axis players concerns except to deny that there is any validity to our complaints.


Because not even amongst the Axis players, there is agreement that these are truly concerns. I am predominantly an Axis player, and although Pelton and Heliodrus do have an occasional point, I see things often in much more favorable light and disagree with many of their opinions. However, the way Pelton and Helio state things, especially this time, really hurts the cause.

Having a game option to play with fixed production or allow players on both sides to manipulate factories, and R&D as done in WitP/AE for the Japanese would add a huge factor to the game, and something I dearly miss from old WiR or AE. It allows more reason/fun for the German player to hang on, either just for playing with new toys, or hoping (in futility) to change something to prevent the outcome. I believe this is a key why many players in WitP play the Japanese side, although they know that they still will be whipped in almost every case -- it is a different sort of fun, derived from the way, rather than the goal of the game. Hopefully future titles in this series will start to introduce this, until hopefully one day a War in Europe will really be done that gives a full production system on par with AE.

A lot of all the discussions about Axis versus Soviet benefits are based on opinions and expectations. For example the "C&C benefits". What do exactly you expect, how should "superior C&C" manifest?
AP cost for reassigning divisions is a paper act, and could ideally be cheap for both sides. But administration is something that the Germans did not really excel in. Yet it is what Helio is upset about. What is missing is the consequences from reassigning, that for a turn or so the administrative machine or reserve functions don't run as smoothly anymore until all the new communications are worked out and extra penalties apply to supply etc. Here the Germans could even be a little better off. However, that whole area is not implemented.
This does not mean that German C&C is worse, or that they have been given a disadvantage, but administration is made more difficult (although even for that a good argument was made). The devs could lower that, but then also the AP pools should be lowered to adjust to a corresponding level -- and I prefer it the way it actually is as I will have more flexibility/AP for other jobs (fort zone building, HQ build-up, motorization, support unit shuffling, etc.). However, fairer would likely be adjusting it down, which would unfortunately mean removing one Axis benefit.

What is implemented very definitely is superior German generalship, manifesting in some 10-20% better dice rolls on average (see the thread by... a short while ago). And that is what is claimed historically; although there is of course no direct way to project the soft claim of "better generalship and C&C" onto exact quantifiers (say Gen'ls ratings from 1-10) that then again must be converted by some function into specific effects, be it in linear or exponential or whatever fashion. You can design such a function so that a just 1 pt./10% better leader rating leads to no benefit at all, or amplifies all benefits by an order of magnitude. For example those ~15% better chances for successful dice rolls apply to so many areas, from supply to combat, that the effect adds up to a significant benefit beyond these 15% (i.e. it is a non-linear problem). I think they are clearly visible looking at average MP or combat bonuses.
But what exactly is your expectation of "better" here? Do you expect a third world army that will start running at the sight of a grey uniform? Or were the Russians perhaps in their core, despite the Stalinist cleansing of the officers corps, an organized, professional army that was just caught off-balance in the initial phase? As such, I believe, the benefits are there, and they are very reasonable. The Germans were no supermans after all, and neither were the Russians absolute starters in this business.

It would also be an added-value to be allowed to create some corps HQ, support units and maybe even some divs as German, or prevent the auto-rebuild of destroyed ones (the latter is indeed a source of gamey-ness as I believe Pelton correctly identified). Also things like the changing of slots for tanks and equipment, like it is already implemented for planes, would be a nice features. If I understand the production model correctly, average rates have been implemented in this game. Then one catch would be the relationship to real-life rates, that probably peaked or steadily rose to plateau levels. So initially, the "averaged model" must produce more, and later lower numbers, meaning that initially the pool will for a while have tanks that shouldn't be there IRL. So maybe the true underlying problem may not be having tanks in the pools we cannot assign, but the fact that those tanks don't even belong there that early.

Seems like some things in this game in this game, such as production model, supply treatment, or the lack of reaction mechanics for the defender, are just very crude compared to the love to detail represented in the combat engine and in so many other aspects, and that of course forms a stark and annoying contrast. On the other hand, this is a niche game and as such it will already have to be more expensive even at identical quality compared to a mass-market title; asking for a state-of-the-art gem like AE to be produced in one shot would probably mean having to abide with a price that would be a factor higher. So for a reasonable cost, I feel this product provides a reasonable value.

< Message edited by janh -- 1/4/2012 10:38:28 AM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/4/2012 12:59:38 PM   
invernomuto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh
Because not even amongst the Axis players, there is agreement that these are truly concerns. I am predominantly an Axis player, and although Pelton and Heliodrus do have an occasional point, I see things often in much more favorable light and disagree with many of their opinions. However, the way Pelton and Helio state things, especially this time, really hurts the cause.


STANDING OVATION!
I couldn't say it better.
They occasionally have good points, but spamming every discussion with the statement "the game il broken" or insulting the devs asking for a change it's not a clever thing to do.



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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/4/2012 2:48:34 PM   
KamilS

 

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quote:

janh

A lot of all the discussions about Axis versus Soviet benefits are based on opinions and expectations. For example the "C&C benefits". What do exactly you expect, how should "superior C&C" manifest?



I expect "superior C&C" manifest as a superior C&C.

Most of German Corps and most Armies are overloaded (after 11th army leaves situation gets really bad) what leads to using Romanian and Italian HQ to accommodate German units. If it is superior C&C I dread to think how inferior looks like.

quote:

janh

What is implemented very definitely is superior German generalship, manifesting in some 10-20% better dice rolls on average (see the thread by... a short while ago)



It is only true if both sides have their HQ not overloaded and Germans can achieve it only in '41. In '42 situation is more less even for both sides and in '43 Soviet C&C is much better.

< Message edited by Kamil -- 1/4/2012 3:00:44 PM >

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/4/2012 4:17:08 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


The game far far better for sure, but the stick it to the Germans is still the redneck mind set of 2 by 3.





I'm sorry, but this is so insulting. You really think we are a bunch of redneck minds sitting here thinking of how to stick it to the Germans? Really? I have to admit when I see this kind of post it takes away any motivation to read the rest of the post and often the rest of the thread and I'm sure there are others that are working on WitE that feel the same way.



EXACTLY the point that I am trying to make with my five-year-old granddaughter. I have high hopes that she will get the idea soon.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 26
RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/4/2012 4:27:56 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline
If only some comments were just destructive... but they are self-destructive. I feel embarassed about some of you. Relax, this is just a G A M E.

Pompack, you got all wrong, it's YOU who will be dancing to your granddaughter's tune... It's funny to see what 3, 4 years old can do (already saw that with my little niece)

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a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 27
RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/4/2012 5:04:14 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

If only some comments were just destructive... but they are self-destructive. I feel embarassed about some of you. Relax, this is just a G A M E.



I fear that it will continue until some the ban stick is swung a few times.

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 28
RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/4/2012 5:15:39 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


The game far far better for sure, but the stick it to the Germans is still the redneck mind set of 2 by 3.





I'm sorry, but this is so insulting. You really think we are a bunch of redneck minds sitting here thinking of how to stick it to the Germans? Really? I have to admit when I see this kind of post it takes away any motivation to read the rest of the post and often the rest of the thread and I'm sure there are others that are working on WitE that feel the same way.


Funny, but rednecks are more generally pro-Nazi, than pro-Soviet. Obviously, Pelton's characterization of 2x3 is completely off-base, in addition to being insulting. I've met Joel, and he's one of the nicest guys (with incredibly thick-skin) you could know. Think of Steve Jobs without the ego, yet with the patience of the Dalai Lama and a reasonably manly beard. That's him in a nutshell.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 29
RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/4/2012 5:15:40 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Yeah, sure, they have it so good.

Jump on the bash 2by3 bandwagon if you wish.

It would serve you well to look at your posts before you sling about the word useless. (Which is funny after reading your oh so helpful musings.)

But, it is so much easier to whine.

And insult those who don't see things your way.


You can all count your blessings: I've bought a new strategy game and my time here is about done.

But it should be noted that I didn't turn into an a$$hat in a vacuum. Many of you drove me to it by being completely unmovable by any argument that didn't scream of outrageously well-composed and emotionally-laden prose.

Frankly, I feel that the community suffers from homogeneity of thought. Those who don't align to that group-think get labeled as troublemakers who need to be corrected about their misunderstandings of history (apparently one of mine is that the Soviets were better strategic commanders than the Germans in 1941 - who knew?!?). No post generates as much opposition on these boards as "X is a problem in the game." In particular, the coterie of players who favor the Soviet gameplay experience to the German shriek like a murder of crows whenever someone points out the built-in-by-design aspects of the game that convey superiority to the Soviets irrespective of German strategic choices. Those are the people that are destroying the community, not me. They are empowered with the ability to be denigrating to the opinions of others and enabled in doing so. They may not use the two-dollar words that I do, but they hate people like me nonetheless. And because listening to them over me implies less need to do rework on WitE, it's easy for Matrix designers to agree with them. Self-interest aligns to that agreement.

The playtesting community is, I suspect, too beholden to the developers for access to be able to criticize them when they see truly egregious problems in design. How else can one explain the fact that upon release, the 1942 German infantry TOE change reduced their effectiveness horrifically because the TOE change triggered an automatic experience drop (which was unintended). I remember those heady days of 1 year ago.

As I said recently: that you all will go to such effort to defend the indefensible (like Soviet command superiority) leads me to conclude that you're either unable to practice metacognition (the act of thinking about the source for your beliefs and then determining whether the sources are valid; if they are not then the beliefs may not be valid), or you're entirely happy with this product as is.

I can't necessarily conclude that I'm smarter than those of you who will defend these awful design consequences. So I must conclude that this product makes you happy. I've tried to explain to you why this product makes me UNhappy, and you respond by ignoring me, trying to undermine me as a thinker, or reacting to my tone without bothering to address my meaning. So you like the game, and either you dislike me, you dislike my message, or you just don't care to consider alternative possibilities. Whichever of those 3 alternatives is the case, I have to conclude that my continuing investments of energy into making others aware of and bringing them to agreement with my perspectives is a pointless waste of both that same energy, and my irreplaceable time.



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Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 30
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