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oil? - 12/30/2011 8:04:41 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		and other resources seem unimportant in this game.
If its all pp.. then what difference does oilfeild capture make to a germany with no oil worries?
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RE: oil? - 12/30/2011 8:05:02 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
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From: Colorado
Status: offline 		unless I am missing something critical..

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RE: oil? - 12/30/2011 8:07:41 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		As you probably know, German war machine was so hungry for the oil, that the civilian cars very often used wood coal to run.
It is important for Germany to control Oil fields or they will loose some mobility.

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RE: oil? - 12/30/2011 8:10:14 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		how is this represented in the game..
I do not see any iron oil other represented.. so looking at my stats where?

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RE: oil? - 12/30/2011 8:17:17 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		under the tab for reasources there is pp dp smp stp and atp which the manual  states are
production points
diplo points
strategic movement
Sea transfer points
Amphib transfer points.

nothing about oil  there.. any thoughts???

< Message edited by freeboy -- 12/30/2011 8:25:40 PM >

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RE: oil? - 12/30/2011 8:37:39 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		If you will look at the map carefully you can find some oil wells (like the one in Ploesti), at some stage of the game you have to control some oil fields to keep your war machine running.

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RE: oil? - 12/30/2011 8:55:59 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		right..
you are very clear, but where does the oil in storage show jup for planning, or is that not considered?
If I knew more I could plan better , taking things away from allies is neccessary, I just don't see it tracked..
thanks again..

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RE: oil? - 12/30/2011 9:21:24 PM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		All resources are PP's

The oil field has PP's

Oil is abstracted. There isn't any trading or anything like that.

Read above. It says you must control some oil fields or loose movement points.

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RE: oil? - 12/30/2011 9:25:04 PM   
RandomAttack


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From: Arizona
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quote:

Read above. It says you must control some oil fields or loose movement points


But that doesn't really mean anything w/o specifics. How many oil fields? By when? Lose how many movement points? How do you know if you are being impacted?

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RE: oil? - 12/30/2011 9:27:36 PM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		A pop up will appear and will let you know what your options are.

Then as General you can decide how to handle the situation.


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Post #: 10
RE: oil? - 12/30/2011 9:37:24 PM   
RandomAttack


Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		Ok, as long as I am given some time to react I guess. Just my 2 cents, but I find all these "hidden features" very irritating for this type of game. If oil is specifically part of the game, I should know it's important up front-- not be "surprised" with it well into the game. I'm just waiting for events like "Kal-El lands in Germany instead of U.S." or "Hitler now controls the Ark of the Covenant" to pop up.

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RE: oil? - 12/30/2011 10:05:17 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Do you always read the script before going to the cinema?
What's the fun from playing the game, if you will know every right move before really starting it.

You won't find such events within the game. It might be unbalanced at this stage but we are working on improving it.

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Post #: 12
RE: oil? - 12/30/2011 11:19:58 PM   
RandomAttack


Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		Doomtrader, I've seen you make this argument many times-- and I still think it's a horrible analogy. No I don't read the script, but I at least know what movie I'm going to see. And if I walk in and they are playing a different movie, I want a refund!

In a game like this, "resources" are either a factor or they are not. To wait until, say, 1943 to suddenly spring a surprise on a player that oil is (only now) important is just silly. I know you said this isn't in the game, but many exisitng events are already too cute by half and detract from the gaming experience. There are much better ways to achieve balance then through goofy events. IIRC, Uxbridge did a ToW mod where he eliminated all but the "essential" events that seemed to work pretty well.

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Post #: 13
RE: oil? - 12/31/2011 12:25:47 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Since it is generally agreed, by people who study logistics (rather than general historians who rarely have more than a vague graps of it, at best), that German *operational level* decisions (i.e. divisional level) were influenced *from 1939* by POL availabilty, a more strategic level wargame such as ToF should, indeed, have POL availability as a major factor in the game.

There was really nothing, historically, that could be done in the ETO/Med/Middle East to hurt allied POL sources (the Americas and Caribbean had all you could possibly need, so, short of Germany taking the Caribbean and Texas, and Japan California ... no possible way!) as the production there was actually quite tiny *in the 1940s* compared to world supplies and US/UK/Allied needs.

Germany, however, was in a bind ... and things got worse as the war progressed. By late 1944 Speer later admitted that German POL "reserves" actually ceased to exist ... only fudging the accounting to include POL in transit to end users (i.e. on trains, barges, ships or petrol tanker lorries) did they have any "reserves" at all. Hence, for example, all those Panzers that simply ran out of fuel in the Battle of the Bulge ... and the scene in "Band of Brothers" where they're riding along the autobahn towards the end and the defeated German soldiers are walking, riding horse carts down the middle, and one of the US characters (Matt Damon?) screams out "What were you thinking?" in reference to said Horse Carts

As far as I can tell from several 25 turn play throughs of the GC, ToF doesn't seem to have any obvious problems here, but I'll probably need to play much more, or play through 25+ turns for the 1944 scenario before I have a better idea.

HoI3 did a more obvious job of dealing with this, but it was such an abortion that I have no idea how it worked long term, as the game simply couldn't be played long term. MH1/MH2 also tried to deal with it, but the trading/economic model was so broken and the game so ridiculous for a whole variety of reasons that I have no idea how it worked long term.

Grigsby's WaW and WaWaWD ... its quite ba while since I played, ISTR that it did model POL vaguely, but it was more in the realm of Grand Strategy, a step above even ToF, so its hard to tell at that level.

Phil

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Post #: 14
RE: oil? - 12/31/2011 12:31:59 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Again, not trying to open up a stinker, seems that I am making lots of fun German toys for my neighbors to play with, and it would be such a tragic state should they arrive without batteries!

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Post #: 15
RE: oil? - 12/31/2011 12:40:12 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Play the game until the bitter end (or sweet victory) as Germans for couple of times and you will learn what to choose.

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Post #: 16
RE: oil? - 12/31/2011 7:08:12 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		yep.. will be playing against ai to see as my server game rapidly approaches barbarrossa..
?.. is there a winter spring 41 prep for barbarossa event to help me? as axis???
thanks

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Post #: 17
Victory? - 1/4/2012 6:16:18 PM   
perkyle

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Play the game until the bitter end (or sweet victory) as Germans for couple of times and you will learn what to choose.


Not about oil, but about victory itself - I played a long campaign as Germans, took out Poland, France, USSR, Africa, UK, and finally America - got every VP but one of the Australia et al, which evidently can not be conquered by the axis, yet the game just kept going. I wonder what is considered to be the ultimate victory condition?

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Post #: 18
RE: Victory? - 1/4/2012 6:34:47 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Looks like you have won.

We just missed the British Colonies and the game thinks that there is a requirement to conquer it.
Already fixed for the patch.

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Post #: 19
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