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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids)

 
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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/5/2012 2:05:10 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
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From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Production turn 184. The manpower pool is gradually increasing.




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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/5/2012 2:39:45 PM   
karonagames


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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		The other things I played around with in testing were based on working out how many units I would need to man a 60hex defence line from the conjunction of the Yugo/Hungary/Rumania border to Konigsberg, and planning my unit mergers accordingly. With a 120 infantry division Germany Army I could keep more 3CV divisions in the line, which made reasonable defensive CVs in the good old days when lvl4 entrenchments were easier to achieve.

It's all clutching at straws, as you are at least 500k (50divisions)short of front line strength. I never played far enough to see what difference the "cavalry" made, but I'm reasonably confident they can keep him out of Berlin until May 1945, which I would class as a major victory after all the version changes you have had to endure - you definitely deserve Oak Leaves and Swords for this effort!

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 1/5/2012 2:43:05 PM >

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/5/2012 2:44:34 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

The other things I played around with in testing were based on working out how many units I would need to man a 60hex defence line from the conjunction of the Yugo/Hungary/Rumania border to Konigsberg, and planning my unit mergers accordingly.

It's all clutching at straws, as you are at least 500k (50divisions)short of front line strength. I never played far enough to see what difference the "cavalry" made, but I'm reasonably confident they can keep him out of Berlin until May 1945, which I would class as a major victory after all the version changes you have had to endure - you definitely deserve Oak Leaves and Swords for this effort!


Thanks! At this pace it seems I will make it, but it remains to be seen. It would actually be prize enough to be in the first game to complete the entire campaign in PBEM, whatever the result.

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 1/5/2012 2:45:07 PM >

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/5/2012 3:06:30 PM   
Ketza


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Status: offline 		While looking at the trends in the few games that are heading into the later years I am coming to the conclusion that it will be difficult for the Average Soviet player to make Berlin in time.

Just a feeling I have.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/5/2012 3:26:01 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Ketza, you may be right. The Soviets can recover from a push deep into the Soviet union and wreck the Wehrmacht, but simply run out of time. That's kind of what's happening here. The Germans are plainly toast, but the Sovs are way behind schedule.

The real winners here? The offmap Western Allies. They'll be the ones marching into Berlin.



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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/5/2012 3:37:12 PM   
karonagames


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Status: offline 		It will be good to see the debate turned to whether Soviet players are building the "right" army to do the job. Back in early 1943 I felt Gids was not building nearly enough Artillery Divs, and I am still not seeing much in the screenshots being posted. This may be the balancing factor to the obvious Armaments and Manpower issues that Tarhunnas has suffered through all the version changes. Mega CV Guards Corps and Tank corps may look sexy, but I think the Artillery/mechanised combo will be needed to get the Op-tempo to the right level; that, together with the re-introduction of +1!

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/5/2012 3:39:15 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Bob, to my way of thinking, none of these Soviet players are building enough arty.

I do love my guns.



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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/5/2012 5:02:42 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

The real winners here? The offmap Western Allies. They'll be the ones marching into Berlin.


In that case I'd say the real winners were the average German.

quote:

Bob, to my way of thinking, none of these Soviet players are building enough arty.
I do love my guns.


Comments, observations, and suggestions would be appreciated in the War Room / Red Artillery thread!

I've played through a Soviet GC to conclusion against the AI (won in Sept '43), but had such a terrific '42 summer campaign I only built on map artillery to futz around with.  Not sure of the pros and cons of the various units, and would love some input from someone who is more than guessing.

It seems to me the only way in the game to find out what is in one of those units is to first build it.  Is there a way to examine TOE prior to construction of a new on map/support unit?

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/5/2012 6:50:21 PM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		I believe someone ( Pieter? ) posted a list of TOEs in a thread all by itself.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/5/2012 8:02:45 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

While looking at the trends in the few games that are heading into the later years I am coming to the conclusion that it will be difficult for the Average Soviet player to make Berlin in time.



I disagree! Just look at the number of games that reach even 1943? Very few! And the ones that do are games where the Axis have done much better than historically. So the sample we are looking at is skewed to say the least. The Soviet army in this game is much weaker than its historical counterpart. And even so it has beaten my army to a skeleton.

IMHO the play balance still favours a Soviet win. When I am finished with this game I as the Soviets would be willing to take on anyone, provoided they promise to play to the end, and I am confident I would win comfortably.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/5/2012 8:21:51 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Tarhunnas, if you start a fresh game in 1.05, the Axis is considerably stronger in 1941-2 than in prior versions. You might be unpleasantly surprised playing the Soviets. It's a different game now. You only got to see the Soviets post 1943 with this patch, where they are indeed probably stronger than before, and haven't taken your lumps in the earlier part.

That said, it's hard to draw many conclusions from this game in particular, given all the patching. Nevertheless, I applaud your superb defensive efforts.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/5/2012 10:04:37 PM   
Tarhunnas


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From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Turn 185. December 28 1944. Nothing dramatic happening. The Rumanians are still in the fight. A shot from the North where the German forces are withdrawing and the Finns coalescing around Leningrad.




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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 4:50:50 AM   
Ketza


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

While looking at the trends in the few games that are heading into the later years I am coming to the conclusion that it will be difficult for the Average Soviet player to make Berlin in time.



I disagree! Just look at the number of games that reach even 1943? Very few! And the ones that do are games where the Axis have done much better than historically. So the sample we are looking at is skewed to say the least. The Soviet army in this game is much weaker than its historical counterpart. And even so it has beaten my army to a skeleton.

IMHO the play balance still favours a Soviet win. When I am finished with this game I as the Soviets would be willing to take on anyone, provoided they promise to play to the end, and I am confident I would win comfortably.


He has beaten your army but wont make it to Berlin in time for whatever reason.

Just saying.


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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 12:29:51 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Tarhunnas, if you start a fresh game in 1.05, the Axis is considerably stronger in 1941-2 than in prior versions. You might be unpleasantly surprised playing the Soviets. It's a different game now. You only got to see the Soviets post 1943 with this patch, where they are indeed probably stronger than before, and haven't taken your lumps in the earlier part.

That said, it's hard to draw many conclusions from this game in particular, given all the patching. Nevertheless, I applaud your superb defensive efforts.


I beleive Pelton vs Kamil is the latest running 1.05 game. Jan 1944

I did do poorly during blizzard or Kamil (20 German divisions pocketed) did good how ever you want to look at it. Kamil is above average.

Tarhunnas vs Gids gids would have had far less men in his OOB under 1.05 ruleset and you probably would have VPed out in 1943.

Flaviusx is right 1.05 greatly levels the playing field.

I think the issue now for Russian players is no one has any exp late war building the "right" russian army to cover terrain faster then the very slow grinding army's we are seeing in most if not all of the late war AAR's

Pelton

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 2:35:04 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		I'm going to try to get a "fast moving" Red Army, but moving fast either one of two things has to happen; either a very mobile, Blitzkrieg-type breakout, or the destruction of the Wehrmacht in 1944.

I think the first one is pretty tough, even with ost of Tank and Mech Corps, mostly because German units don't rout. That, plus the Germans are going to have time to prepare some forts. Thus, a 1941-style breakout isn't very possible for the Soviets, and in fact we haven't seen one yet at all.

So, the real answer is that the Wehrmacht just needs to be destroyed by late 1944, so that there just are not enough Germans to stop a runaway. Not sure that's possible either.


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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 3:07:08 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I'm going to try to get a "fast moving" Red Army, but moving fast either one of two things has to happen; either a very mobile, Blitzkrieg-type breakout, or the destruction of the Wehrmacht in 1944.

I think the first one is pretty tough, even with ost of Tank and Mech Corps, mostly because German units don't rout. That, plus the Germans are going to have time to prepare some forts. Thus, a 1941-style breakout isn't very possible for the Soviets, and in fact we haven't seen one yet at all.

So, the real answer is that the Wehrmacht just needs to be destroyed by late 1944, so that there just are not enough Germans to stop a runaway. Not sure that's possible either.



Probably a little of both.

Build a more mobile army or a I should say several mobile army gruops(fronts I gues they are called). Your right the German army has to be some what grind down( under 3 million?) so that small size pockets( 2 to 10 units) are possible.

I think a runaway is possible at least with my game vs Kamil it is, but only time will tell for sure.

It would be nice to see some of the better russian players get to a late war game to beable to tell for sure how 44 to 45 would go.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 3:12:44 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		The other important factor vs. 1941, is the 1941 Red Army has zero mobile assets to make counterattacks, due to lack of MPs. None.

The Germans will always have alot, since Panzer formations should be kept up to strength the entire war. (It's the Infantry that falls apart)

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 3:17:00 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

It would be nice to see some of the better russian players get to a late war game to beable to tell for sure how 44 to 45 would go.


This might have changed under 1.05, but IMHO it doesn't take better Soviet players to get to the late war, it takes good Axis players.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 3:44:53 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

It would be nice to see some of the better russian players get to a late war game to beable to tell for sure how 44 to 45 would go.


This might have changed under 1.05, but IMHO it doesn't take better Soviet players to get to the late war, it takes good Axis players.


Very true of which there are very few.

And many times even if your doing better then historical as German the red player runs up white flag before fall of 1942.

Not easly to get a game to 1943.

Pelton


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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 6:32:34 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Status: offline 		Turn 186. January 4 1945.

The Siege of Leningrad as started! Waves of Soviet attackers hit the Finnish lines outside Leningrad to no avail.




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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 7:23:48 PM   
Tarhunnas


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From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Otherwise, nothing special happening Turn 186. The Rumanians are still on the right side, despite the loss of Braila and Galata and a couple of towns. AGN is gradually evacuating Estonia. Only a rearguard is left Narva. An overview of the front at the beginning of 1945.




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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 7:29:19 PM   
Tarhunnas


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From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Losses and OOB Turn 186. January 4 1945.




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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 9:35:45 PM   
Schmart

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

It will be good to see the debate turned to whether Soviet players are building the "right" army to do the job.


Agree, but no one knows what they should be building as the Russians, as there is no guidance material. I still think the game should include an historical Russian OOB, not build what you want. I think it would allow a better handle on game balance. Nevertheless, I'm working on a dry run of a GC while trying to build a (close to) historical Russian OOB in game. I have a hunch APs may restrict the building of a historical OOB. An unhistorical OOB thus distorts game balance...

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 10:13:07 PM   
karonagames


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Status: offline 		If you look at the games that get to summer 1943 and compare the OOBs to the 1943 campaign OOB, my guess is that player-built Soviet armies have a lot less artillery divisions. I used the 1943 Campaign OOB as my "build plan" for the Red army during 1942.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 10:24:20 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		It's like Bob says. The historical artillery parks as shown in the 43 and 44 scenarios are a good basis to work from. Which means, roughly, two dozen tube artillery divisions and a half dozen rocket artillery divisions. I would consider even building more than that, but that's the basic blueprint.

Near as I can tell, nobody is building anywhere near that much artillery. They've been forgotten in the rush to pump out rifle and mobile corps. But the Red Army is a stool that cannot stand on two legs alone. True combined arms operations will include all three elements in generous amounts.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 1/6/2012 10:26:32 PM >

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/6/2012 11:14:43 PM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		"Artillery is the god of war."

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/7/2012 8:53:34 AM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
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From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		I won't argue the comparison with historical OOBs. However, in this game, the Soviets can push me back anywere they chose, along most of the line but not everywhere at once. I can't see how more artillery would make them advance faster. More and fully equipped Tank and Mech corps would help them advance faster, as I would have to be more careful not to be encircled, which would force me to retreat faster than I am doing. I suspect the Soviets are short on tanks in this game, and that does limit their pace of advance.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/7/2012 9:25:42 AM   
Apollo11


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Status: offline 		Hi all,

I still predict (as I did long ago) Axis Victory... the Soviets are quite away from Berlin...


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/7/2012 9:40:30 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Tarhunnas, more artillery built earlier would have ground you to paste earlier and allowed the mobile units to rush forward earlier.

Yes, the Wehrmacht is broken now, and a little too late.

Leaving aside this particular game, every game I've seen thus far has a long, too long, stalemate period where the Soviet struggles to get any kind of offensive traction. Artillery gets you past that point. It is of course less useful in an exploitation situation.

Look at Idaho and Ketza's games, for example. Me, I would have been rolling out the big guns in a big way as quickly as possible. You want to stick panzers on the front lines in forts? Bring. It. On.



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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/7/2012 10:28:08 AM   
karonagames


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Status: offline 		I highly recommend that all players who focus solely on the 1941GC play practice games of 1942 and 1943 campaigns, even if it is only for one year. 1942 teaches the Axis how to run an offensive on a shoe string while the Soviets can practice building the army they will need for 1943. The 1943 Campaign allows the SU to practice combined arms, echeloned attacks that are needed to break through the current 1943 stalemates we are seeing in 1941 AARs; the Axis will learn how to survive, and attrition management skills.

I stated much earlier in this thread that you would win unless gids built more artillery divisions, but I then got nervous when you attacked in 1943, as the casualties you took reduced your manpower - you were "winning yourself to defeat", so I have been amazed that your sub-2m army is holding back the Red avalanche, but it looks like your withdrawal and the logistics system will save you.

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