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RE: Kharkov - 10/20/2011 10:30:08 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zanekin

I can you track the number of factories that you've destroyed ?

only by keeping a written record I believe (and I do)

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Post #: 1351
RE: Kharkov - 10/21/2011 10:17:37 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline
quote:

What's this ?


That is the evil witch, GAIA, plotting to encircle your forces. She has seen 2 weak points in the line and will try to send units along the path of least resistance behind the lines.

(in reply to Balou)
Post #: 1352
RE: Kharkov - 10/21/2011 4:55:28 PM   
Balou


Posts: 841
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks for the reply. One more question:
Support level og HQs: how much counts 1/3 of a unit (eg artillery)? As 1/3 or as 1?

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Post #: 1353
Urban and Swamp CV - Section 15.6.2.3 - 11/13/2011 3:04:47 PM   
Shupov


Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		The manual section 15.6.2.3 says infantry CV is doubled in urban hexes and AFV units are reduced by half. I have an armor and infantry unit in Kiev but both CV's appear to be multiplied by a factor of about 12. The infantry CV goes from 4 to 49 and the Panzer CV goes from 7 to 89. Do these CV modifications only take place during combat?

The same question for Swamps. I seem to recall the AFV CV in swamps changed in an early version. Please confirm the manual is correct.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 1354
RE: Urban and Swamp CV - Section 15.6.2.3 - 11/14/2011 5:52:09 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		afv not panzer division.. so the vehicles are reducd and infantry components expanded in their respective powers...

< Message edited by freeboy -- 11/14/2011 10:25:31 PM >

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Post #: 1355
RE: War in the East Q&A - 11/21/2011 4:52:25 PM   
HITMAN202


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/10/2011
Status: offline 		Question about corp HQ. For the GER s the most divisions that can be attached effectively is 4 (8 point capacity.. 2 points per division) so is it best to assign 4 divisions to a corp ..ie, transferring divisions from corp with 1-2 divisions.. or are their advantages of having corp with few divisions (or other units.) ??? I've read how Q-Ball likes to put his best div in the same corp, but it seems best to stack the weak with the strong so their experience can grow when participating in attacks (at least early in the game.) ??? Like at the start in the game 4th Army (navy blue) has 2 corp with only 1 and 2 divisions. Do you consolidate them, add other div over time (like those attached to OKH or other army units) ??? Give me some insight.

(in reply to jaw)
Post #: 1356
RE: War in the East Q&A - 11/27/2011 7:40:38 AM   
schmolywar

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 12/12/2010
Status: offline 		Hi,

Is there a way to see the killcount of individual ground units like you can with the air units?

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Post #: 1357
RE: War in the East Q&A - 11/28/2011 3:10:40 AM   
The Red Baron


Posts: 167
Joined: 3/23/2007
From: Adirondack Mtns, NY
Status: offline 		No, but you can get an idea of how successful the ground element is by checking its experience in the unit detail window.

(in reply to schmolywar)
Post #: 1358
RE: War in the East Q&A - 12/5/2011 8:14:36 PM   
sajer

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 7/4/2011
Status: offline 		I have been playing games for a very long time - going back to board games. I think what is being discussed here is very important. It hits right at the core of what is wrong with large strategic computer based simulations. As it always happens, players at some point discover that by playing any side that they can "game" the system. This is based on rigid rules of what really happened.

This where all creators of theatre-wide simulations go horribly wrong in their thinking.

I think the post by Big Anorak hits the nails on the head - right from the manual:

quote:

The game is an “Alternate History Creator” that focuses
on simulating the logistic and command and control problems that the historical commanders
on the Eastern Front had to deal with. It will allow players to explore many of the strategic and
operational “What ifs” that have been discussed by historians and armchair strategists for
many years. As such, economic and research based “what ifs” are not the focus."


First of all it is NOT an alternate history creator - it is to a very small degree - but no matter what the Axis does, unless he gets an auto-victory - he is basically screwed. The Soviets will build up and eventually overrun him.

This is why no games are running (human to human) past early 1942.

Also by not having the what-if's imbedded in the game it does not take into consideration the most important part of the human vs human or human vs AI overall strategy - there is too much rigidity in the game. You KNOW that the Germans will have this much production in this year or that. You KNOW what replacments or units will be transferred to the front and when. You KNOW that the SU will eventually build into this big juggernaut that is unstoppable starting in the late summer of '42 or early '43.

I recently wrote a long post about this exact problem. It was blown off by a few people than got thrown into the trash of other posts - and lost.

I introduced the idea of creating a simple creation of out of theatre (and in) "what-if's". I made the mistake of listing ten or twenty of them. It was then shot down by certain posters, saying that "Ohhh.. that would have never happened". You see that was never my point. The idea put forth is WHAT IF ONE OR MORE OF THEM DID!! And they were always questionable to happen till the end of the war (i.e. simulation).

These variables would keep players playing the game to the end to my estimation.

The most important part of a strategy simulation that should be implemented is the "fog of war". I always play my games with it fully implemented. The problem is that there is not enough of a fog of war. Do you really think that the Soviets or even the Germans had the capability to "see" through the eyes of recon planes "everything" that was going on at the front - through hundreds of recon sorties. It's almost as if the Soviets and Germans had spy sattelites for pete's sake.

You know why the Ardennes Offensive (or Battle of the Bulge, if you wish) was a surprise to the Americans? Hell, they had plenty of recon planes, didn't they? It was because of the art of deception. Complete radio silence, hiding tanks in forests, moving units at night. A pretty good job by the Germans, I might say. To hide 26 Divisions and all that armor and to attack the Allies with total surprise.

I remember reading a book on the Battle of Kursk - and Zhukov heaviliy fortified his flanks and eventually defeated the massive attacks on his northern and southern flanks by SS panzers armies - bacause he said - that is what I would have done.

Also I am reminded by Hitler's quote on the Soviet Army: "All you have to do is kick in the door, and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down".

Would he would have attempted the invasion if he had known that the Soviets would get American/British help via the Murmansk port? Or had the capacity to "move" factories east behind the Urals?

I'm getting away now from my main point. I also don't want to bore you with hundreds of "what-if's". But hopefully you get my drift.

The main thing wrong with big intricate simulations like this if that we all plunk down $60 to $80 because are intrigued by the thought of a huge intricate model of the greatest battle ever fought - the Russo-German war in the East. It is fun for awhile, but then a strategy arises from constant play by smart players to "game" the system. I am not blaming them at all. They after all find the flaws in the game - as to almost make it unplayable.

In the end I am only saying that if this game could be modeled to include historical variants it would keep the players- playing the game to the bitter end. Also it would give the players the ultimate satisfaction - "FUN".

But, companies spew out these games, like War in the Pacific (where you just move pieces around a board for MONTHS - knowing the U.S. will win the end.) Then moving on from WiTe ( after getting thier money) to designing WiTw - where again they will again get paid. With the deep design flaw is still present. After you slap down big cash for War in the West - players will eventually find a way to "game" that computer simulation. But by then they will be on to their next project..and so on..and so on.....

The thing is you don't really "fix" a game by creating dozens of patches. You don't stop the blood from severed arm with a band-aid (I know what that is all about - because I have seen it up close). You have to fix the root problem. Until that is done - I will keep my money in my pocket.

You can poo-poo my post - but in my heart and in my opinion I know I'm right.

Keep up the good fight men!


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Post #: 1359
RE: War in the East Q&A - 12/6/2011 4:10:07 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		You aren't saying the game company is purposely taking advantage of people, are you?

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Post #: 1360
RE: War in the East Q&A - 12/6/2011 8:25:45 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Is this game / simulation flawed?

IMHO not!


Why do people think it is flawed?

Because many still think that Germany could have won against Soviet Union and / or that Japan could have won over USA in historic WWII!


This is, IMHO, fundamental mistake many player make and this is where all "issues" came from...


The very second Germany attacked Soviet Union in WWII the Germany lost the war - similarly the very second Japan attacked Pearl Harbor the Japan lost the war!

No serious modern historian would tell otherwise either!!!


So why do we still play Japan in UV / WitP / WitP-AE and / or Germany in WitE?

Because we know that it is lost cause but we want to be better than history!

The winning is not in absolute victory - that was historically impossible - the winning is beating the history (i.e. being better than the history)!


Thus, the winning for Japan in UV / WitP / WitP-AE is not conquering the Pacific - the winning is keeping the USA further away from home islands in 1945 and not allowing devastating B-29 raids on Japanese cities (including the A-Bomb attack)!

Similarly, the winning for Germany in not conquering the Soviet Union - the winning is keeping the Soviets as far east as possible from Berlin!



Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to sajer)
Post #: 1361
RE: War in the East Q&A - 12/10/2011 11:29:32 PM   
sajer

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 7/4/2011
Status: offline 		I think people that read my post get the wrong idea. They always go back to REAL history and say this could not have happened or this could not have happened. What I am saying is that an icon that could give you a brief (alternative or not) war update would be awesome.

These ( alternate war reports) would influence the game. By a multitude of ways. Having German or Soviet industry, oil or synthetic fuel rise or fall. Also having reinforcements - not written in stone - so you can see it for the ENTIRE war by scrolling down on the reinforcement screen (air and land). But having (maybe) alternative circumstances delay of expedite these divisional movements to the Eastern Front.

Of course the out of theatre reports could follow history (EXACTLY). But it's the NOT KNOWING that creates the anticipation.

Also you could have a variable date for development of certain units (i.e. Tiger Tanks, BF 109 G, etc..)

You see what I'm trying to say is that these unforseen variables would apply to BOTH sides (Soviet or German).

This would add an uncertainty to the game and keep players in a constant questoning of how the war is going (out of theatre). Of course having an impact on the War in the East. I think it would be awesome.

Of course this is just my opinion.

< Message edited by sajer -- 12/10/2011 11:32:55 PM >

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Post #: 1362
RE: War in the East Q&A - 12/11/2011 10:40:30 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline 		I thought I had seen an explanation of this before, but I'm having trouble finding it.

Can someone explain to me the discrepancy I see between the losses listed in the event log file and the losses info screen?

I'm trying to track how the Red Army is performing week to week against the Wehrmacht, but I'm not sure how those numbers jive.

Which should be considered the more reliable indicator?

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Post #: 1363
RE: War in the East Q&A - 12/11/2011 11:09:05 PM   
gingerbread


Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Go with the losses screen.

If you want a more accurate tracking, adjust as follows:

Do this at the start of your turn:
men, KIA =
men, cap divide by .92 since 8% of total convert to Hiwis
men, dis  divide by .995 since 0.5% were returned during, but were lost at start of, logistics phase

Add these 3 to get a running total of lost men and compare with last turns ditto. That will be your losses during last week with start of logistics phase as flank or tick if you are an analogue time measurer :)

Guns =
AFV add the numbers that were repaired (see event log) to losses to get comparison value as per men



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Post #: 1364
RE: War in the East Q&A - 12/11/2011 11:50:44 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline 		So what are the numbers I'm seeing regarding losses in the event log file?

It would be _really_ nice if the losses from the losses info screen (and production screen for that matter) was written to file same as the event log.

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Post #: 1365
RE: War in the East Q&A - 12/11/2011 11:59:28 PM   
gingerbread


Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Just ignore info about losses in event log.

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Post #: 1366
RE: War in the East Q&A - 12/12/2011 2:03:13 AM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline 		Can anyone tell me what the losses in the event log are derived from?

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Post #: 1367
RE: War in the East Q&A - 12/12/2011 8:35:38 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: sajer

I think people that read my post get the wrong idea. They always go back to REAL history and say this could not have happened or this could not have happened. What I am saying is that an icon that could give you a brief (alternative or not) war update would be awesome.

These ( alternate war reports) would influence the game. By a multitude of ways. Having German or Soviet industry, oil or synthetic fuel rise or fall. Also having reinforcements - not written in stone - so you can see it for the ENTIRE war by scrolling down on the reinforcement screen (air and land). But having (maybe) alternative circumstances delay of expedite these divisional movements to the Eastern Front.

Of course the out of theatre reports could follow history (EXACTLY). But it's the NOT KNOWING that creates the anticipation.

Also you could have a variable date for development of certain units (i.e. Tiger Tanks, BF 109 G, etc..)

You see what I'm trying to say is that these unforseen variables would apply to BOTH sides (Soviet or German).

This would add an uncertainty to the game and keep players in a constant questoning of how the war is going (out of theatre). Of course having an impact on the War in the East. I think it would be awesome.

Of course this is just my opinion.


I know what you are saying... I didn't misunderstand you...

But Gary (via Joel) told us long long long time ago (remember that, most recently, he made UV / WitP and influenced WitP-AE) that his games are based on history as much as possible... thus what you wish for might not happen...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 1368
RE: War in the East Q&A - 12/12/2011 7:20:38 PM   
ETF


Posts: 1748
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		1) Ok first week of December 41 as the soviets. My German opponent seems to be withdrawing about 2 hexes a turn. Any ideas on how to hurt him as much as possible. Seems like I am just following him :)

2) Have lots of planes on the lines but little action is happening. What doctrine setting should I be changing to get some air time for my planes. Even when manualing trying to bomb something few planes fly.

Thanks so much!


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Post #: 1369
What to do with all the BT7M's - 12/12/2011 7:24:27 PM   
ETF


Posts: 1748
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		What to do with all the BT7M's.....
I have almost 1200 of them. Why can't we sub these to fill the gaps for medium tanks? I understand from my WITP/AE days that we should not have access to production, but why not able to shift tanks around to fill gaps in the historical production. Loved that option with the orginal GG games in the early 90s.

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Post #: 1370
RE: What to do with all the BT7M's - 12/13/2011 5:44:33 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		Armor can only replace types in their same class: light tank for light tank, medium tank for medium tank, heavy assault gun for heavy assault gun, etc.

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Post #: 1371
RE: What to do with all the BT7M's - 12/18/2011 10:16:05 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		Heliodorus keeps bringing this up, and the devs haven't seemed to respond to it, at least recently.  Why do the Axis have a multiplier for AP expenditure on reassigning units to a different HQ?

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Post #: 1372
RE: What to do with all the BT7M's - 1/8/2012 3:13:48 PM   
schmolywar

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 12/12/2010
Status: offline 		Is there a way to see the detailed combat resolution messages after youve received a turn from your pbem opponent?

< Message edited by schmolywar -- 1/8/2012 3:14:23 PM >

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-Peculiarities of russian warfare

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Post #: 1373
RE: War in the East Q&A - 1/8/2012 8:12:54 PM   
ETF


Posts: 1748
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		Anyway to update A/C on the "c" command list. Say want to convert the I15's to YAK1's?
Doable or do I have to do via mouse clicks haha.

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My Top Matrix Games 1) CMO MP?? 2) WITP/AE 3) SOW 4) Combat Mission 5) Armor Brigade

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Post #: 1374
RE: What to do with all the BT7M's - 1/8/2012 8:14:01 PM   
ETF


Posts: 1748
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: schmolywar

Is there a way to see the detailed combat resolution messages after youve received a turn from your pbem opponent?

There should be a replay as in in WITP....hard to figure what went on sometimes.

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Post #: 1375
RE: What to do with all the BT7M's - 1/8/2012 8:32:49 PM   
Wild


Posts: 364
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline 		Agreed. Don't know why they thought it was a good idea not to include a replay.

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Post #: 1376
RE: What to do with all the BT7M's - 1/8/2012 9:44:07 PM   
ETF


Posts: 1748
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

Agreed. Don't know why they thought it was a good idea not to include a replay.


Defies logic IMHO. It is worth the Coding time. I would give up other features for it.

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Twitter
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Post #: 1377
RE: What to do with all the BT7M's - 1/9/2012 3:40:51 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

Agreed. Don't know why they thought it was a good idea not to include a replay.




I certainly would like that as well, but the "why" is really quite simple: It's not a replay in WitP, it's a re-creation. Saving a true "replay" would increase the size of the save by at least a factor of ten and probably a lot more. It works in WitP because if you save the initial conditions and the seed you will always (except for Sync Bug issues) get the same result. The problem in WitE is that it is not a simple Move-All-Resolve-All as it is in WitP but instead is a Move-Resolve-Move-Resolve ... etc.

In order to "recreate" a WitE turn you would need to save the initial conditions and log every keystroke and mouseclick of the turn (providing a lot of information about the opponent's thought processes as you watch each unit or status screen he examines) or save the initial conditions/seed for every combat action. It's do-able but it would be a lot of code labor as well as a time and storage impact for each turn.

< Message edited by pompack -- 1/9/2012 3:41:12 PM >

(in reply to Wild)
Post #: 1378
RE: What to do with all the BT7M's - 1/9/2012 3:50:32 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

Agreed. Don't know why they thought it was a good idea not to include a replay.



One reason could be so people who PBEM don't have to stare at the screen with nothing happening while potentially a hundred or more units are moving out of your sight due to fog of war.

Edit - And sorry for going off topic. The purpose of this thread is to ask questions about the game as it exists, not debate what might have been or why things were left out.


< Message edited by elmo3 -- 1/9/2012 4:12:45 PM >

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(in reply to Wild)
Post #: 1379
RE: What to do with all the BT7M's - 1/9/2012 4:57:13 PM   
Wild


Posts: 364
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you Pompack and Elmo. Those are good reasons, i never thought of the potential problems.Guess we will just have to live without the replay feature.

(in reply to elmo3)
Post #: 1380
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