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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 7:03:54 PM   
vettim89


Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline 		I will say, I likely will never do the Fortress Palembang thing again. Yes, it was fun to watch the AV and Fort level rise knowing that southern Sumatra was quickly becoming unasailable, but the effect on the game is too much. I think this is especialy true in Scen 2. The Japanese have the capability to produce more and better airframes but without Palembang's fuel, the extra capacity ends up sitting idle.

In one sense, its a good gambit becuase it forces the Japan player to make a major commitment to the DEI before headign off to places hinder and yon. On the other hand, if the Japan player fails to deal with it early, it becomes a game breaker

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Post #: 2311
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 7:12:19 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I wouldn't expect Fortress Palembang to succeed against anybody but a newb, and it would be an abuse to employ it against a newb.  Against competent players it will fail.  Against very good players it can be used against the Allied player in a big way.

So, I doubt I'll ever use it again either.  It has been fun, and I love not having to fight tooth-and-nail to get a lodgement in the DEI, but to see Japan pull into a shell and do a Not-So-Brave Sir Robin in mid 1942 takes allot of the excitement out of the game.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/17/2012 7:13:16 PM >

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Post #: 2312
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 7:13:29 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Yeah, I agree. I resolved to only reinforce (as allowed by enemy activity) but not go for FP even if I could force it.

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Post #: 2313
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 8:10:02 PM   
Andav

 

Posts: 474
Joined: 5/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Yeah, I agree. I resolved to only reinforce (as allowed by enemy activity) but not go for FP even if I could force it.


As one of the aforementioned 1x1s all I can say is, "Phew"! I will just happily ignore Sumatra and concentrate on Nome!

Wa

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Post #: 2314
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 8:16:08 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Yeah, I agree. I resolved to only reinforce (as allowed by enemy activity) but not go for FP even if I could force it.


As one of the aforementioned 1x1s all I can say is, "Phew"! I will just happily ignore Sumatra and concentrate on Nome!

Wa



You did allow the 1st and 2nd Marine Divisions in...

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Post #: 2315
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 8:45:32 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		Your patience is admirable. Maybe Chez has realized he CAN'T dislodge you without breaking his own rules for historically viable play, and therefore has chosen a strategy that Japan itself may have adopted if they hadn't gotten the oil in 42. I think they actually might have sued for peace, and that would be his best option.

He most likely can't sail around with much now as the fuel doesn't allow it. Why he's allowing you to rule the air and ground as well without opposition is beyond me.

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Post #: 2316
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 8:54:18 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		You managed perfectly to throw your opponent completly off-track, spoiled his plans, make his southeast conquests worthless, kicked his ass in China and you are holding him around his neck tightly in Sumatra and poke at his eyes at Paramushiro. While it is a great strategy - and you deserve the glory for succesfully employing it - in the same time you caused that this game is no more enjoyable to your opponent (at least i feel it from his gameplay).

My advice to anyone planning to employ Fortress Sumatra strategy is to be carefull - you might won the game but loose the fun.

CR: I would ask your opponent if he would like to quit - or probably start a new game. I would see no shame in his position to accept the offer.


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Post #: 2317
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 8:56:50 PM   
vettim89


Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

You managed perfectly to throw your opponent completly off-track, spoiled his plans, make his southeast conquests worthless, kicked his ass in China and you are holding him around his neck tightly in Sumatra and poke at his eyes at Paramushiro. While it is a great strategy - and you deserve the glory for succesfully employing it - in the same time you caused that this game is no more enjoyable to your opponent (at least i feel it from his gameplay).

My advice to anyone planning to employ Fortress Sumatra strategy is to be carefull - you might won the game but loose the fun.

CR: I would ask your opponent if he would like to quit - or probably start a new game. I would see no shame in his position to accept the offer.



This ^^^^^^^^^^^^ +1

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Post #: 2318
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 9:01:36 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		I see no problem in trying to emply a FP gambit, as mentioned it isnt perfect and can be foiled. It seems to be some excuse for bailing out of the game.

You dont see JFB  players being generous when at the gates of Karachi or Melbourne, no, its a great plan and probably poor Allied play.

IMVHO, and maybe why I dont play against real peoples, Chez should have reviewed the position some months back and if unwinnable surrendered.

Instead his reputation is suffering anf CR is not enjoying the lack of contest, maybe enjoying winning though.

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Post #: 2319
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 9:13:59 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I won't approach Chez until the end of 1942.  That will give him some more time just in case he's up to something big (which is certainly possible).  If he hasn't addressed the situation by the end of the year, though, it will be pretty clear that the game is over.

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Post #: 2320
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 9:15:36 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Ah did I get this right, he didnt repair the Miri oilfield ?

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Post #: 2321
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 9:20:30 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Right.  Miri is 153(148).  It's been at 50% damage since its capture, which was belated too.

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Post #: 2322
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 9:26:04 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Well if you deny him the rest of Borneo his economy will crumble in 43. In scen 2 Japan has a million of extra fuel but I doubt he has more than 2 million anymore. He will also run out of oil very soon.

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Post #: 2323
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/17/2012 10:17:27 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		He was also running the Combined Fleet back and forth to Pago-Pago for a while there too - that's got to eat up a lot of fuel.

Once again, I can't figure out where he's stashing all of his aircraft (this is Scen 2) & ships, unless he's waiting to rebuild his carrier arm - which if that's the case, it'll be nearly useless against all of our built-up bases on Sumatra anyway!!!

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Post #: 2324
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 12:52:19 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		10/18/42
 
I realize there's no way I can win now.  Where once I was ahead of GreyJoy in replies and total hits on on AAR, he now has a two-to-one lead.  Not only that, he's pulling away and accelerating rapidly.  I despair of catching himi...

Burma:  Several troop movements in this area have made it clear that Japan has nothing in reserve with which to relieve Magwe.  280 Brit and Chinese AV just arrived at Toungoo and found just 30 AV at this level two airfield.  Just to the south, a weak IJ cavalry unit is holding a woods hex.  A small Allied force may be able to brush it aside.  Further south, an IJ regiment reclaimed a vacated Prome, but a Chinese unit is on the way on the coastal road and getting close.  It will keep up a threat from that direction.  And it looks like Japan has just a small garrison force at Rangoon.  So, the IJ army at Magwe is well and truly isolated.  At this point it should take Japan a major reinforcement effort, feeding troops into Rangoon by sea, to relieve the 2+ divisions at Magwe.  Bad joo-joo for Japan.

China:  The Chinese may be able to re-maul an IJ brigade near Sinyang (it's been mauled by the same force once before).

NoPac:  Japan has stepped up air operations against Para.  The Allies are reinserting the fighter squadrons that had retired to Attu Island to rest and replenish.  Thirteen days until winter...

CenPac:  San Diego forts went to level one.  :)  (I just noticed I didn't have fort building going on at this base.)

DEI:  Lots of Allied traffic from Oosthaven to the Java Sea bases.  I will continue to take risks with small but helpful transport TFs until Steve takes action to make it too expensive to do so.  I'm not leaving my ships totally unprotected, though.  Two decent cruiser TFs are patroling the waters between Oosthaven and Billiton Island.  AFter each night patrol, they usually retire back to Oosthaven, but on occasion (as this next turn) I leave one or both forward.  So, CA Devonshire TF will patrol the straights between Billiton and Bangka tomorrow.


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Post #: 2325
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 1:56:00 PM   
yubari

 

Posts: 365
Joined: 3/24/2006
Status: offline 		Yes but you are only in 1942 and Greyjoy is late in 1944! This game is just as interesting, albeit for different reasons.

Just another voice to add to the "where the heavens are all the Japanese troops?" there should be at the very least 15 land infantry divisions and two tank divisions available by now, plus almost countless numbers of SNLFs and naval guards, more than that for scenario 2. For a base as crucial as Toungoo to be all but empty just doesn't make any sense. And how can bases like Ketapang fail to be taken? It is almost harder not to take it than to take it.
Just totally perplexed by how this game has developed.

I don't think that the Fortress Palembang strategy is at all unfair. The Japanese player should be able to realise what is going on fairly quickly, at least by the end of December and there are some perfectly good counters to it, such as surrounding the place with Betties. The Japanese can very easily land two divisions on Palembang in the first week of January, those which start at Shanghai and Canton, and by that time the KB can be available to provide air support. It is the Japanese player's fault if he allows a succesful Fortress Palembang to develop.

It is quite intriguing to imagine how the world would pan out after this particular WW2, with the King of Holland leading his victorious battle fleet into Tokyo Bay.

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Post #: 2326
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 2:01:52 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Try advertising in Mandrake and Sprior's AAR. They accept gold bullion as payment and added at least one or two hits to my AARs.

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Post #: 2327
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 2:25:35 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		Well, at least historically, the Allies thought they'd be able to hold the line in the DEI - but they lacked the necessary forces (especially air power). Now, if the Japanese hadn't moved as fast or suffered reverses (as they did in this game), things could have gone very differently - especially if you had a good base to build from.....

I think we can all agree that either Chaz has some massive plan in the works or he's given up and decided to act completely on the defensive.

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Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

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Post #: 2328
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 2:28:24 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		About Fortress Palembang.  I don't think it's unfair (except for an experienced player to pull it on a newb).  I do think it is almost futile now.  Against an experienced player it won't work.  Against a few select players (I won't mention who), they would simply allow the Allies to get away with it, smile as the Allied player built a castle out on the end of a very long limb, and then laugh while cutting that limb off and watch as the Allied player suffers a shattering fall to the ground.

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Post #: 2329
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 3:10:39 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Don't forget though that a fortress without a sally port is useless.

A soviet view of this would be that due to initial enemy superiority it was necessary to fort up and deny the enemy the terrain which held the economic fulcrum of the game. Once that terrain is held in sufficient detail it is time to attack.

CR has chosen a very different tack and instead of going over onto a major offensive has instead allowed things to quiesce. If neither player takes the initiative you end up with this sort of sitzkrieg.

It isn't a criticism of CR, just a recognition that once it was clear he'd won he could have gone on the offensive ( this was around the end of March 42/beginning of April ) and if he didn't he risked this sort of unsatisfying ending. With that said, a win is a win.

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Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 2330
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 4:43:10 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		I think there was too much adventurism in irrelevant places, such as the Kuriles/Aleutians. What's he doing up in Norpac?

I suppose I can see the value in terms of extending your defensive perimeter so you can't get Greyjoyed, but it's hardly deserving of being a primary or even secondary objective really. Japan has been bumming around in Norpac even as Festung Palembang was obviously developing. There doesn't seem to have been anything much sent in the direction of Palembang until far, far too late. How is Attu Island more important than Palembang?

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Post #: 2331
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 6:46:14 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

10/18/42
 
I realize there's no way I can win now.  Where once I was ahead of GreyJoy in replies and total hits on on AAR, he now has a two-to-one lead.  Not only that, he's pulling away and accelerating rapidly.  I despair of catching himi...
.




You lost

Was a great game imho...untill chez played it...now you siply should offer him to throw the towel...sorry but that's the way i see it

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Post #: 2332
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 7:10:23 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Hey Canoerebel, et. al.,

I haven't followed this AAR at all until now, striving to keep unbiased should Chez actually post something on a JFB AAR. Alas, this will not develop, so I think I'll hang around here and boost your hit count a bit, if you don't mind.

So, what's been going on in this war? What'd I miss?

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Post #: 2333
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 7:17:56 PM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		CR, as I believe I suggested via either post or PM a few weeks back, the most probable explanation for Chez' actions is that he knows it's over and is waiting for you to suggest he seek honorable terms. Maybe not, but the "Chez has something big in the works" theory has been discussed since about March '42. Your suggested timing of 1943 seems reasonable (if you can stand it) as by then Singers will be isolated and Borneo subject to aerial blockade.

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Post #: 2334
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 9:21:31 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe a comment in defence of Chez,

Didnt your game against QBall see a strategic withdrawal and maybe took away his enjoyment and subsequent turn to the dark side

Just clutching at straws and doing my 1 item of support per year for JFB as required by legislation.

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Post #: 2335
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 9:29:26 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Jeff, that very thought occurred to me earlier today or yesterday.  "Is this game," I pondered, "the mirror image of my game vs. Q-Ball?"

It may be, but the effects are much different.  If the Allied player pulls a massive Sir Robin, an experienced and bold IJ player can take advantage of the circumstances and make things that much worse for the Allies.  It is also guaranteed to end as at some point the Allies will come out of their shell - as I was going to do with a massive invasion of Sumatra in early 1943.

But when an IJ player pulls a Sir Robin in 1942 - at least on this scale - it means the game will wither away.  Japan has got to make it difficult, expensive, and time-consuming to get the first major lodgement in the Japanese MLR - whether that be Sumatra, Java, New Guinea, the Kuriles, or the major IJ island holdings east of the Philippines.  If not, the Allies get a one-year or more head start and can methodically advance under the cover of LBA.

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Post #: 2336
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/18/2012 10:26:49 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		From what it looked like in the beginning, which had the makings of a barn-burner, I think it was also the differences of opinion about how the game can and should be played that stifled this one a bit.

Who knows for sure, but from comments on other open threads that came out later it just looked like although Chez was disappointed with the difference but still having a lot of fun. He seems very honorable and a good opponent in the sense that he's not going to just throw in the towel when the first few things go wrong, but you have to wonder how fun this is for him right now, not doing anything!

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Post #: 2337
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/19/2012 12:19:45 AM   
vettim89


Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Jeff, that very thought occurred to me earlier today or yesterday.  "Is this game," I pondered, "the mirror image of my game vs. Q-Ball?"

It may be, but the effects are much different.  If the Allied player pulls a massive Sir Robin, an experienced and bold IJ player can take advantage of the circumstances and make things that much worse for the Allies.  It is also guaranteed to end as at some point the Allies will come out of their shell - as I was going to do with a massive invasion of Sumatra in early 1943.

But when an IJ player pulls a Sir Robin in 1942 - at least on this scale - it means the game will wither away.  Japan has got to make it difficult, expensive, and time-consuming to get the first major lodgement in the Japanese MLR - whether that be Sumatra, Java, New Guinea, the Kuriles, or the major IJ island holdings east of the Philippines.  If not, the Allies get a one-year or more head start and can methodically advance under the cover of LBA.


I've thought about your game in these terms. Geographically you are far ahead of the curve but logistically it is still Fall 1942. The bulk of your reinforcments are a year or more away (ships, planes, BD, etc, etc, etc,). I was prodding you a little while ago but I do understand where you are. Historically the Allies were locked in a slugfest on GC and PNG at this point.

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Post #: 2338
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/19/2012 1:26:33 AM   
Schlemiel

 

Posts: 154
Joined: 10/20/2011
Status: offline 		Well, if you do play another game at least there is no possibility of being the first allied player to lose to Japanese autovic, since that has already happened. If you want an additional challenge, I'd change the HR about paying full pp to move out of borders to each side can pay the cheap price for 2 divisions a month while the Japanese invasion bonus lasts (though I'd suggest not allowing hq swaps and such if they still exist, and perhaps requiring full pp in addition to the existing fee to be paid by the end of 1943, lets you frontload now at the cost of less later?). That or play scenario 10 and see carrier parity into 44 I think even without losing anything (plus Japan basically gets a free Palembang worth of extra oil production owned at the start of the game compared to scenario 2 and something like twice the resource production). It'd be quite a challenge and bloodbath against a Japanese player with any experience.

(in reply to vettim89)
Post #: 2339
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 1/19/2012 1:32:48 AM   
princep01

 

Posts: 943
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Nhah, I disagree with JeffK. Q-Ball did not quit because CR did what almost every Allied player does (especially in Scenario 2). You did the Sir Robin thing to survive. Q-Ball had to anticipate that type of thing in some variation or another. The simple fact is that Q-Ball got involved in a big way with a sparlking, shiny new top (WitE) and just dumped the game. Very unsporting. As a result of his action, I'd never play a game with him.

Chez is the JAPS in this Scenario 2 game for God's sake. However, he has sat on his thumbs, diddled about, squandered his fleet, ignored a MAJOR threat at the door of Singapore until it festered into gangruene (sp), taken his remaining fleet on pointless, fuel burning sailing excursions and otherwise made mistake after mistake.

Yes...he has probably lost his enthusiam for this game. However, it was by no means the fault of our AAR host/author. It is the result of badly planned and extremely poor play by him. I honestly expected much better from the Empire.

Anyway, that is my not so humble view of it.

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Post #: 2340
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