RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR)

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/18/2012 10:37:22 PM

Orm

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Please, no USSR HQ to Siberia. Siberia can be defended by a couple of infantry stacked in hero cities.

USSR can later on send a HQ to Siberia when they feel like counterattacking.

Edit: USSR might have had no intention of sending a HQ to Siberia but since I was suprised to see Zhukov close to Persia I felt a need to say this.

< Message edited by Orm -- 1/18/2012 10:48:38 PM >

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Post #: 1171

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/18/2012 10:54:01 PM

Red Prince

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Incidentally, would it not have been better to pick a CW major power home country not at risk of enemy action to be Portugal's new home country (e.g. UK or Canada)?

It doesn't matter. If Mozambique is conquered, then either Protugal is still incompletely conquered beause they have other minors left (and picks one of them as a new, new home country) - or Portugal is completely conquered because it has no other aligned countries.

This is an oft-misunderstood intricacy of RAW. Even if Queen Wilhelmina is living in Ottawa, Netherlands is still completely conquered if their last aligned country is conquered. Also if their first choice home country (FREX NEI) is conquered, it is not a Reconquest situation, they simply pull up stakes and move the home country to Dutch Guyana.

Odd that you should mention the NEI and Dutch Guyana. Now, I'm not saying that will be my target (yeah, right, sure it won't), but I've been planning my Japanese moves for this turn and the next very very carefully, and I'm certain I can invade with 5 Corps and 4 Divisions in a single impulse when M/J '41 begins, with 2 TRS to spare. I could do something less impressive for M/A '41, but I'll have more punch and better weather in M/J '41. At that point the USA should probably be close to war anyway, and while there is little left that I can take from them, 9 invasions on a Surprise impulse could gain a lot if done right.

In fact, depending on how things play out for the US Entry (yeah, I guess I'm cheating in favor of the Axis, but it's hard to play as if I do not know those values), I might even take the "historical path" that Japan chose . . . and DOW everyone in sight. French Indo-China is a bit of a pain to not have right now, the UK is still weak in much of the Pacific, the Soviets are going to have their hands full in the West, and the USA . . . well, the USA has the Philippenes, but more importantly, I can prevent them from gaining surprise on Japan.

Another potential benefit in doing this (is this unorthodox or not?) is that I might be able to drive the Ge/It entry level up enough to make it difficult for the USA to DOW the Euro-Axis. If I can conquer China at the same time, even better. If not, it's time to start "collecting" as many of those Communist cities that remain as I can. By M/J '41, the USA is sure to have enacted the Oil Embargo, and probably they'll Pass War Appropriations by then, too. That means war is not far away. If I can force them to add 10-12 chits to the force pool in a single impulse/turn, I might be able to really screw with them. It's possible I won't even have to DOW them yet. All the other chits might be enough to get the job done.

Then again, they might not. But it might be worth a try.

-----
Edit: Of course, if the Allies saw this coming, depending on which units are likely to be involved in the invasion force, they might be inclined to urge China to surrender at some point.

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/18/2012 11:01:17 PM >

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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Post #: 1172

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/18/2012 10:55:13 PM

Red Prince

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Please, no USSR HQ to Siberia. Siberia can be defended by a couple of infantry stacked in hero cities.

USSR can later on send a HQ to Siberia when they feel like counterattacking.

Edit: USSR might have had no intention of sending a HQ to Siberia but since I was suprised to see Zhukov close to Persia I felt a need to say this.

Don't worry. Siberia is on its own.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 1173

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/18/2012 11:10:22 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

This is what the USSR has to work with in Persia (26 factors) at the moment:

The USSR doesn't need a lot of units here, and certainly not their best unit (Zhukov).

They can form a contiguous front line in 5 doubled hexes where only 1 hex can be attacked from 2 hexes. The other 4 hexes can only be attacked from 1 hex. Supply should not be a problem. If it is (because of weather), then the Axis are going to have supply problems too. Figure the Axis can get at most 18 factors per hex, the Russians only need 10 per attacker hexside to defend at less than 2:1 odds. So, put 10 factors in the corner hex and 5 in the other hexes. If the Axis builds a mass of troops on this front, then put a couple of weaker units (3, 4 factors) behind the front line in reserve.

You have mountain hexes to fall back on, and 2 rivers lines after that. Compared to the endless clear hexes in the Ukraine, this front is virtually invulnerable.

Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 1174

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/18/2012 11:13:12 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

And the enemy they are likely to face before the Italians get involved (33 factors):

Compare the Mech and Armor in this screenshot to the amount of those unit types facing the USSR right now.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 1175

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/18/2012 11:23:28 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Please, no USSR HQ to Siberia. Siberia can be defended by a couple of infantry stacked in hero cities.

USSR can later on send a HQ to Siberia when they feel like counterattacking.

Edit: USSR might have had no intention of sending a HQ to Siberia but since I was suprised to see Zhukov close to Persia I felt a need to say this.

Don't worry. Siberia is on its own.

Siberia should get 2 units (plus the Vlad militia). They don't have to be strong units, just something to keep the Japanese from moving freely across the map. Reinforcements can be dropped into cities in the path of their advance from time to time. What you do not want is for the Japanese to simply walk their units across all of Siberia for free every turn.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 1176

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 12:06:50 AM

Red Prince

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

This is what the USSR has to work with in Persia (26 factors) at the moment:

The USSR doesn't need a lot of units here, and certainly not their best unit (Zhukov).

They can form a contiguous front line in 5 doubled hexes where only 1 hex can be attacked from 2 hexes. The other 4 hexes can only be attacked from 1 hex. Supply should not be a problem. If it is (because of weather), then the Axis are going to have supply problems too. Figure the Axis can get at most 18 factors per hex, the Russians only need 10 per attacker hexside to defend at less than 2:1 odds. So, put 10 factors in the corner hex and 5 in the other hexes. If the Axis builds a mass of troops on this front, then put a couple of weaker units (3, 4 factors) behind the front line in reserve.

You have mountain hexes to fall back on, and 2 rivers lines after that. Compared to the endless clear hexes in the Ukraine, this front is virtually invulnerable.

Zhukov is there right now because I don't know if I'll have time to set up the "correct" forces in time. Germany has 10 Ground Support factors it can add to any attack, and 5 land moves and 1 rail move per turn has somewhat limited which units I can move to this front.

As for the ARM/MECH units in Tunisia vs. the Soviet border, counting Divisions as 1/2 a unit, the totals are 5 to 5.5 (with 2 more MECH at the start of M/A '41 and another ARM in J/A '41, plus the potential for 2 more MECH that turn). So, as of J/A '41, probably the 2nd turn of the war or maybe the 3rd, it will be 5 to 10.5 . . . and 2 of these units are currently on their way to Beirut via Italian TRS.

Look, I know you have an issue with this. You think it's wrong. Maybe it is. You have made your point. But how will any of us know if it's wrong if I don't try it? Steve, I truly don't mean this to be rude or to sound like sarcasm: have you ever tried this? If not, how do you know it's wrong?

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 1177

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 12:10:49 AM

Red Prince

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By the way, unless one of those 5 units you have for the defense of Baku is an HQ, 2 of them are OOS no matter what the weather is. All it takes is a successful Ground Strike on those units, and your "impenetrable" defense is history.
-----
Edit: I also haven't yet moved my PARA or ATR out of the Iberian yet. Sure, it might take a while to get them over here, but what happens when a paradrop lands in one of the hexes behind the river line? Oops, everyone is OOS unless they retreat immediately.

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/19/2012 12:16:41 AM >

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 1:04:54 AM

morgil

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

By the way, unless one of those 5 units you have for the defense of Baku is an HQ, 2 of them are OOS no matter what the weather is. All it takes is a successful Ground Strike on those units, and your "impenetrable" defense is history.
-----
Edit: I also haven't yet moved my PARA or ATR out of the Iberian yet. Sure, it might take a while to get them over here, but what happens when a paradrop lands in one of the hexes behind the river line? Oops, everyone is OOS unless they retreat immediately.

quote:

Iberian

Its one of those classic mistakes I used to do alot in my first games, defending too hard in one spot, making me lose the game in another.
If you put a 4 strenght unit in a mountain hex that can only be attacked from one other hex, the opponent needs 24 factors just to get a 3:1 attack. And the corner spot would be ideal for a whiteprint unit or two. If and when the germans get bombers there, you should counter that with fighters, and when they add fighters, then you should consider railing your worst HQ to the forest there.

On the baltic front, you have overdefended the speedbumps, 9 factors is not not a threat, and it does not do any better job than 4 factors would do. So youre sacrificing two units where one would suffice.
Remember that in the surprice impulse only a drunk stukapilot will fail to flip a unit in range, and that a div is not worth 1 to the defence, but +1 to the attacker for being flipped.

Your units in south Poland can be encircled, OOSed and killed at leasure in 1943, and unless you have a convoy point in the Black Sea, the units in Bessarabia, like the 8 pooint stack is worth like 3 flipped, and can be overrun by a mere 14 factors, and OOSing the flipped 10 point stack allowing 9 factors to overrun that.
Also note that Divs have no ZOC outside their own hex.

Two nonfail bombruns and two more tanks/mech in Rumania and Odessa falls on the surprise impulse..

Ofc, I know you wont keep it like this, and that **** weather and short turns have left you in a bit off a pickle, but just sayin :)

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 1:17:11 AM

Red Prince

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

By the way, unless one of those 5 units you have for the defense of Baku is an HQ, 2 of them are OOS no matter what the weather is. All it takes is a successful Ground Strike on those units, and your "impenetrable" defense is history.
-----
Edit: I also haven't yet moved my PARA or ATR out of the Iberian yet. Sure, it might take a while to get them over here, but what happens when a paradrop lands in one of the hexes behind the river line? Oops, everyone is OOS unless they retreat immediately.

quote:

Iberian

Its one of those classic mistakes I used to do alot in my first games, defending too hard in one spot, making me lose the game in another.
If you put a 4 strenght unit in a mountain hex that can only be attacked from one other hex, the opponent needs 24 factors just to get a 3:1 attack. And the corner spot would be ideal for a whiteprint unit or two. If and when the germans get bombers there, you should counter that with fighters, and when they add fighters, then you should consider railing your worst HQ to the forest there.

On the baltic front, you have overdefended the speedbumps, 9 factors is not not a threat, and it does not do any better job than 4 factors would do. So youre sacrificing two units where one would suffice.
Remember that in the surprice impulse only a drunk stukapilot will fail to flip a unit in range, and that a div is not worth 1 to the defence, but +1 to the attacker for being flipped.

Your units in south Poland can be encircled, OOSed and killed at leasure in 1943, and unless you have a convoy point in the Black Sea, the units in Bessarabia, like the 8 pooint stack is worth like 3 flipped, and can be overrun by a mere 14 factors, and OOSing the flipped 10 point stack allowing 9 factors to overrun that.
Also note that Divs have no ZOC outside their own hex.

Two nonfail bombruns and two more tanks/mech in Rumania and Odessa falls on the surprise impulse..

Ofc, I know you wont keep it like this, and that **** weather and short turns have left you in a bit off a pickle, but just sayin :)

RE: the Division in Kaunas (or wherever it is). That unit hs been there ever since the Baltic States were claimed -- by that unit. I haven't had time or moves available to get it out yet.

RE: Bessarabia and the Baltics. See the above comment. Too many units, not enough time. Those double stack speed bumbs are there because they were contributing to the Garrison Value. I felt it was more important to clear the units out of SE Poland than to get these units un-stacked. Don't forget that Cernauti and Chisinau are part of the USSR and can have Reserve units placed there to make sure supply still exists in Bessarabia. That means those 2 stacks near Chisinau can screen for the Odessa factory to rail out and then try to get out of there. Also, you need to check your calculations for an overrun -- you need 7:1 to do it, so 14 factors can't overrun 3, and 9 factors can't overrun 2.

RE: The Persian mountains. A single 4-factor unit is great in the mountains, unless the 3 bombers in Syria just happen to rebase to Iraq and then just happen to flip these units on the surprise impulse (or any other). As I said in my previous post, there needs to be an HQ as one of those 5, or 2 of them are going to be OOS no matter what. Flip those and it's a walk though the park as the 3:1 attack becomes a 12:1 (Automatic on the 1D10 CRT).

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/19/2012 1:21:56 AM >

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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 1:38:36 AM

Red Prince

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Once again, I think I should apologize for being cranky. It's been a long day, and I get grumpy when I'm tired.

So, please accept my apologies if I've sounded too unfriendly.

-Aaron

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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

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Post #: 1181

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 2:18:34 AM

morgil

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Ahh yes, i forgets 1d10 CRT..meh..never used 1d10 so dunno if the same applies, but in 2d10 you need +16 to overrun, thats same as 8:1 but you get to add modifiers, so 14 can easily over run 3, if those 3 is 3 units. Would still need more than 9 to overrun the 2, my bad.
And ofc i forgot the reserves..

And in a real game it would be awesome to see the face of the US player when the USSR answers a german DOW with DOWing back Italy :)
And then watch him try to explain that he has Casus Beli on Italy so there in no USE.

Edit:
Ohh and I forgot, those big naked mountains in southern Aserbajan, must be perfect for carpetbombing german units if you should happen to have a combined spare..

< Message edited by morgil -- 1/19/2012 2:24:36 AM >

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 2:58:15 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Aaron,

You're right about the units being 5 hexes from Baku and Tabriz not being a supply source.

I was advocating 5 factors per hex, not 4. And using white print units means they would be worth 6 not 2 when out of supply and disorganized. Overruns and blitz advances are not possible in the mountains and you are going to see the USSR choose the Assault table.

The reason I am so opinionated about this attack by the Germans with some of their best armor in these mountain hexes is that there is no place in the Ukraine, or even on the route from Minsk to Moscow that has anything even close to this good terrain for defense. If you are going to commit 3 or 4 good bombers, 1/3 of your armor, a paradrop, and an HQ for an attack anywhere along the eastern front, Germany will roll forward effortlessly. Here it will be chancy, with a roll of a 1 bringing the entire enterprise to a halt.

I guess it just comes down to where would the Russians like to defend against armor? In the mountains or in the clear?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to morgil)

Post #: 1183

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 3:32:29 AM

Red Prince

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The reason I am so opinionated about this attack by the Germans with some of their best armor in these mountain hexes is that there is no place in the Ukraine, or even on the route from Minsk to Moscow that has anything even close to this good terrain for defense. If you are going to commit 3 or 4 good bombers, 1/3 of your armor, a paradrop, and an HQ for an attack anywhere along the eastern front, Germany will roll forward effortlessly. Here it will be chancy, with a roll of a 1 bringing the entire enterprise to a halt.

I understand this. However, by summer I'll have 5 German HQs and Mannerheim all working on that front. The Soviets don't even have 5 white print units yet (I think) to commit to a mountain defense, and even if they do, that removes them from gaining the winter attack bonus.

It's a gamble, I admit. At the time that I had to commit to trying to slip in the back door to activate the Turks, these were the best positioned units for the job. Assuming the Soviets do leave an HQ as part of this force to keep everyone in supply, Germany still only needs to defeat one of these 5 hexes to force the USSR to redeploy its defenses. After that it might not be too difficult to activate Turkey. If that happens, Russia is dead meat.

I see it as a situation similar to Gibraltar, but without the benefit of Defensive Shore Bombardment. Yes, the Soviets can ships both FTR and LND units to help out here. If they do, the Germans gain superiority on the primary front in much greater numbers. I also think of it the same way as I do the CW Strat Bomber force -- they may never fly, but they tie up units. Russia is going to have a hard enough time defending the main front, so if 1/3 of my Armor force can tie up 4-5 good Soviet units (not the trash MIL, mind you), an HQ, and 1/4 to 1/3 of the enemy air power, I see it as a good deal. The other 2/3 of my Armor can be used to Blitz the Ukraine, and my INF can clean up the rest.

quote:

I guess it just comes down to where would the Russians like to defend against armor? In the mountains or in the clear?

This is defensive thinking, and if I was looking at this strictly from a Soviet point of view, I might agree. Looking at it from the German point of view, though, you get a completely different equation: it comes down to which front is more important and what it will take to make that front weak . . . deadlock in the mountains is more costly for the Soviets in terms of percentage of their units than it is to the Germans.

Meanwhile, the Finns can cut the line to Murmansk, and the main force can try to work its way to Moscow. With so few defenders available, it doesn't matter which units get to Moscow, as long as they get there. In order to prevent that from happening, the USSR will need to retreat rapidly from normally defensible positions, or risk a major breakthrough that could be disastrous. They can't afford too many "speed bumps" even though they need some, or they'll have nobody left to defend the Motherland. That means there is a danger that several factories will fail to make it out to new locations.

Even if I use what I already have in the Persian region, send 2 more Siberians there, and send another 2 off to help defend/slow down Japan, I might as well abandon the Baltics entirely and not bother with any "speed bumps".

If the Northern Front falls, Moscow is doomed. If the Ukraine is overrun, a defense on the Persian border is useless -- its primary purpose being to keep the Turks Neutral -- and if the Japanese are ignored, any facories that are moved might be in danger of capture.

Amor may be a wonderful tool, but I don't see it as the ultimate weapon that some seem to think it is. Breakthroughs are great, but can leave the forward units vulnerable to counter-attack. The one thing that will make me wish I had more Armor is the Blitz Bonus optional rule -- except I expect the Russians to try to defend in hexes which negate the Blitz Bonus . . . forests, cities, etc. When it comes time to attack Kiev or Vitebsk, I'd rather have my 9-4 INF on the job than my 7-5 MECH.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 1184

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 4:01:07 AM

Red Prince

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I believe there is also a misconception that it will take 3 HQs to attack across the Persian border. The following image shows what I mean.

The Purple route I am almost certain should allow attacks across the border using only 2 HQ units.
The Red route I am less certain about, since I'm not sure if I'm calculating the use of secondary and tertiary links corrctly, but it would allow even greater range.
The Orange line along the mountains requires only 1 HQ unit -- assuming the Japanese DOW the USSR at the same time and are able to maintain a supply link from the Persian Gulf to Japan (which should be easy enough to do at the beginning of the war, at least).

If/when Turky enters the war, all supply concerns are finished.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 4:34:26 AM

composer99

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IMO the Germans should just crack out their o-chit and power their way through whatever defence the USSR has set up in the Caucasus during the surprise impulse, then align Turkey and secure the oil in Baku.

The resource hexes in the Caucasus comprise 1/5 of the USSR's entire resource base and 1/2 of its oil. They're going to miss it if it is taken this summer.

Obviously, while the plan - German units busting into the Caucausus to align Turkey the back-door way and grab the oil earlier - is sound, the units being committed are suboptimal.

However, since the USSR itself has not fully built out its arm/mech forces, the Germans aren't risking losing superiority. And let's be honest: the USSR is big enough that Red Prince does not have to give the Germans a blitz attack anywhere in the Ukraine.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 1/19/2012 4:56:55 AM >

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 4:54:39 AM

composer99

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Further to that, I suggest the main thrust of Germany's campaign season 1941 should be to secure Rostov & Stalingrad and link up with the Caucasus forces & the Turks.

The region from south of the Kursk-Saratov hexrow (inclusive) includes:
- 12 factories, of which 3 are red factories (12/29 and 3/7 respective proportions). Even granting some blue factories will be railed out, they probably won't all make it - and the red factories are stuck where they are.
- 7 resources and 7 oil (7/20 and 7/10 respective proportions or 14/30 combined)
- overland rail links allowing rail movement from Europe to Egypt & Mesopotamia, allowing rapid redeployment of strong German forces in the event of Western attack

So long as the Germans can destroy more bps in land & air units than the Red Army can make good on during the first 3 turns of the war, and can continue to inflict reasonable losses during the winter, the resulting impoverishment of USSR production will leave them in a weaker relative position by the start of campaign season 1942.

The more resources & production the Axis secure from the USSR and the earlier they do it, the longer they have to consolidate their gains economically and hence the better chance they have of resisting the American onslaught later (although I remain pessimistic about their ability to do so past 1945).

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 5:29:10 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

I believe there is also a misconception that it will take 3 HQs to attack across the Persian border. The following image shows what I mean.

The Purple route I am almost certain should allow attacks across the border using only 2 HQ units.
The Red route I am less certain about, since I'm not sure if I'm calculating the use of secondary and tertiary links corrctly, but it would allow even greater range.
The Orange line along the mountains requires only 1 HQ unit -- assuming the Japanese DOW the USSR at the same time and are able to maintain a supply link from the Persian Gulf to Japan (which should be easy enough to do at the beginning of the war, at least).

If/when Turky enters the war, all supply concerns are finished.

Desert hexes count as 2 Basic Path Hexes. The benefit of rail lines is only provided to the secondary to primary path. The path to the purple hexes cost 6 and 7 BPHs. The path through Baghdad takes 6 and 7 BPHs for the second and third legs. Only the last leg of these paths is a secondary to a primary.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 1188

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 6:13:19 AM

brian brian

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

I have to point out that it is easy for the Axis to supply Iraq & Persia by sea if the Royal Navy just hides and the British army runs away from the theater (Mozambique?), which is what created this Allied problem in the first place. If the Royal Navy puts up a solid fight with all it's pretty new carriers and everything else they can send, which should be a lot with no Med to fight in any more (get additional help from the USN by having them defend the Atlantic with their BBs and reverse engineer this situation and send some SUBs into the Med), then the Axis need three HQs to overland supply an attack on the Persian border area, and a fourth to attack the second hex of the Turkish border (desert hexes cost 2 for tracing supply). You can't say no one suggested this critical move for the CW now, but that bit of disingenuousness brought me out of retirement for this one and one only. Fight the Axis the way the real British did it and let Uncle Joe out of this Axis fantasy.

Trade units for factories in Europe and nothing else (which is all you can do with too many pilots that just get overrun if you try to use them in the Ukraine without the necessary boots on the ground), just retreat back to the Caucasus and then fight like hell (2 units in Tiflis and maybe 1 in Astrakhan every single reinforcement phase until the passes in the Caucasus and the approaches to the passes are impregnable). Moscow is not important in and of itself if you can get the factories out, it is just a pride thing to fight over it. I abandoned it once and my German opponent never recovered from the shock and I was in Berlin by the fall of '44. The Japanese can't threaten the factories in Siberia, it is just too big and too far to walk (for the Germans too), especially if you drop a few CAV out there to threaten their flanks. Think like Clinton. It's all about the economy; rail oil to Siberia and hold on to Saratov and Penza as long as you can, which might not be long, though maybe the stretched out German army without an Italian Luftwaffe overhead might not be quite as terrible in this game. If the Allies still can't send aid overseas to the Russians because that part of the game isn't ready yet, the only way you can help them is in the Middle East. That's where the oil is, and who controls the oil makes the rules. Send Patton. And yes I know the Patton HQ-A won't be around for a while. That's not what I meant.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 1189

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 9:17:18 AM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

IMO the Germans should just crack out their o-chit and power their way through whatever defence the USSR has set up in the Caucasus during the surprise impulse, then align Turkey and secure the oil in Baku.

The resource hexes in the Caucasus comprise 1/5 of the USSR's entire resource base and 1/2 of its oil. They're going to miss it if it is taken this summer.

Obviously, while the plan - German units busting into the Caucausus to align Turkey the back-door way and grab the oil earlier - is sound, the units being committed are suboptimal.

However, since the USSR itself has not fully built out its arm/mech forces, the Germans aren't risking losing superiority. And let's be honest: the USSR is big enough that Red Prince does not have to give the Germans a blitz attack anywhere in the Ukraine.

I'm going to have to build an O-chit before I can use one. I used the first in France, the second in Spain. Even if I build one this turn (possible), it won't be ready until J/A '41.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 1190

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 9:20:52 AM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Further to that, I suggest the main thrust of Germany's campaign season 1941 should be to secure Rostov & Stalingrad and link up with the Caucasus forces & the Turks.

The region from south of the Kursk-Saratov hexrow (inclusive) includes:
- 12 factories, of which 3 are red factories (12/29 and 3/7 respective proportions). Even granting some blue factories will be railed out, they probably won't all make it - and the red factories are stuck where they are.
- 7 resources and 7 oil (7/20 and 7/10 respective proportions or 14/30 combined)
- overland rail links allowing rail movement from Europe to Egypt & Mesopotamia, allowing rapid redeployment of strong German forces in the event of Western attack

So long as the Germans can destroy more bps in land & air units than the Red Army can make good on during the first 3 turns of the war, and can continue to inflict reasonable losses during the winter, the resulting impoverishment of USSR production will leave them in a weaker relative position by the start of campaign season 1942.

The more resources & production the Axis secure from the USSR and the earlier they do it, the longer they have to consolidate their gains economically and hence the better chance they have of resisting the American onslaught later (although I remain pessimistic about their ability to do so past 1945).

This sounds good to me, and I'm hoping that the weather will be brilliant again for the summer months, because I've been finding it diffictult to get the right units in position to try for this grab. I think it can be done, but you never can tell what will happen.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 1191

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 10:45:11 AM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I have to point out that it is easy for the Axis to supply Iraq & Persia by sea if the Royal Navy just hides and the British army runs away from the theater (Mozambique?), which is what created this Allied problem in the first place. If the Royal Navy puts up a solid fight with all it's pretty new carriers and everything else they can send, which should be a lot with no Med to fight in any more (get additional help from the USN by having them defend the Atlantic with their BBs and reverse engineer this situation and send some SUBs into the Med), then the Axis need three HQs to overland supply an attack on the Persian border area, and a fourth to attack the second hex of the Turkish border (desert hexes cost 2 for tracing supply). You can't say no one suggested this critical move for the CW now, but that bit of disingenuousness brought me out of retirement for this one and one only. Fight the Axis the way the real British did it and let Uncle Joe out of this Axis fantasy.

Trade units for factories in Europe and nothing else (which is all you can do with too many pilots that just get overrun if you try to use them in the Ukraine without the necessary boots on the ground), just retreat back to the Caucasus and then fight like hell (2 units in Tiflis and maybe 1 in Astrakhan every single reinforcement phase until the passes in the Caucasus and the approaches to the passes are impregnable). Moscow is not important in and of itself if you can get the factories out, it is just a pride thing to fight over it. I abandoned it once and my German opponent never recovered from the shock and I was in Berlin by the fall of '44. The Japanese can't threaten the factories in Siberia, it is just too big and too far to walk (for the Germans too), especially if you drop a few CAV out there to threaten their flanks. Think like Clinton. It's all about the economy; rail oil to Siberia and hold on to Saratov and Penza as long as you can, which might not be long, though maybe the stretched out German army without an Italian Luftwaffe overhead might not be quite as terrible in this game. If the Allies still can't send aid overseas to the Russians because that part of the game isn't ready yet, the only way you can help them is in the Middle East. That's where the oil is, and who controls the oil makes the rules. Send Patton. And yes I know the Patton HQ-A won't be around for a while. That's not what I meant.

Supply always gets me confused, so I may be wrong about Iraq in part. However, SUBs in the Med don't cut supply, if that's what you're getting at. It's also "easy" for the Axis to maintain supply to Iraq if a) Japan is not yet at war with the CW, no matter how many CVs the CW has in the area, or b) you've sent most of the fleet back to the Atlantic because you've been told to do so, or c) you haven't got any good CVP on those CVs.
-----
Edit: Just re-read the supply rules yet again, and point "a" isn't accurate.
-----
I haven't got Patton, but I do have Nimitz and a MAR unit in Pago Pago already.

The problem with sending help to the USSR is limited to BP, not to Resources. Either way, though, if they lose too many factories and/or have no way to get them to factories (Arctic, Persia, Vladivostok), they would do no good. The USA, in its attempt to get to War Appropriations hasn't passed either option yet, so the point is moot.

If you are questioning the wisdom of retreating Wavell to Mozambique, he now has 4 units to work with, a 5th one about to arrive, and a direct rail link to South Africa. What did he have to work with in the Middle-East? Nothing.

You also still seem to be asking me to send the CW fleet everywhere at once, completely ignoring limitations imposed by Range, and you are also still ignoring the terrible rolls the RN got during the first year. I may be inexperienced, but I am not inept or overcome by "disingenuousness". I am, in fact, taking most of my Allied plans directly from suggestions in the forum. For example, I built Pilots for the USSR because I was told to build them for the planes in the Reserve Pool for Garrison Value assistance.

Finally, you describe this game as an "Axis fantasy". What point is there in playing a game if the outcome is predetermined? Do you want a game the Axis can win? Or do you just want to relive WWII and see only the things that happened in that war?
-----
I'm glad you are feeling like you want to become involved again. I'm doing my best to not only tell what's happening, but to show it as best I can. I think that for the most part, I'm doing well with that, as demonstrated by the 21,500+ hits this thread has gotten to date. Please continue the constructive suggestions (USSR factory and economy priorities, for example). But please remember that I am running a test game.

I rarely say things so directly, and I hesitate to do so now, but you have to get past last year and think about next year. To that end, I'm going to quote post #1126:

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Regarding the USSR defences:

Give Red Prince a break. The USSR starting on-map army is pitiably small, and their force pools in 1939-1941 are equally tiny.

Yes, I added the color and bold to the text. My point: what's done is done. Please get over it. Post #1142, quoted in part here, seems to be the general feeling I get from the forum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lothrim

Hi Red Prince

I think that it is very cool to follow this AAR. I have played a lot of WIF games in the past, but i simply do not have the time any more. I get all tired thinking about setting up a new game using vassal and trying to remember 100+ pages of rules.

You are marketing this product pretty good. I can envision myself playing WIF again.
Even without an AI to play against I think that i will buy this product.

This AAR is supposed to be fun, and it is supposed to highlight what makes MWiF unique and enjoyable. In the last day or two, I've been trying to think about which forms I haven't yet shown, so that I can feature them when the opportunity comes. I hope this AAR can still be fun for you, but at the risk of offending you, I'm going to requote myself from some previous post (and rephrase what composer99 had to say):

Lay off, already. I do this on a completely volunteer basis, and my dedication to MWiF is strong -- but not so strong that I will continue on even if it stops being fun for me. I really do enjoy being a beta-tester. I even enjoy having my mistakes pointed out. I try to explain what I intended to do. I try to show the die rolls that result in failure even when I've made the "correct" choice. So, please stop giving me crap about choices I made and bad die rolls I got 3-4 turns and over a month ago. If you can do that, I welcome your continued input, because I do respect your thoughts. If you can't, I suggest another "retirement".
-----
Please note: This post only applies to a very specific situation. I am not asking the forum as a whole to refrain from "trashing" my decisions. I'm not even asking you not to say "I told you so." What I am asking is that once you've said "I told you so" once or twice, it's time to move on and seek out the next opportunity to prove me wrong. Trust me, you'll find several more opportunities here -- I've never played the USA at war . . . Egads! Bog only knows what mistakes I'm going to make there . . .

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/19/2012 11:48:20 AM >

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 1192

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 11:00:52 AM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

I believe there is also a misconception that it will take 3 HQs to attack across the Persian border. The following image shows what I mean.

The Purple route I am almost certain should allow attacks across the border using only 2 HQ units.
The Red route I am less certain about, since I'm not sure if I'm calculating the use of secondary and tertiary links corrctly, but it would allow even greater range.
The Orange line along the mountains requires only 1 HQ unit -- assuming the Japanese DOW the USSR at the same time and are able to maintain a supply link from the Persian Gulf to Japan (which should be easy enough to do at the beginning of the war, at least).

If/when Turky enters the war, all supply concerns are finished.

Desert hexes count as 2 Basic Path Hexes. The benefit of rail lines is only provided to the secondary to primary path. The path to the purple hexes cost 6 and 7 BPHs. The path through Baghdad takes 6 and 7 BPHs for the second and third legs. Only the last leg of these paths is a secondary to a primary.

Ack! And I really thought I had that purple path figured out. Curses, foiled again! One of these days I'll figure out how to calculate supply paths correctly. Thanks, Steve. This could have created a lot of trouble for me (more trouble than I've already created for myself, I mean).

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 1193

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 11:15:57 AM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

I've fixed the Supply profile of Iraq (I think) and see why 3 HQs are needed without access through the Persian Gulf. If I'm correct, then in Fine weather, I should be able to maintain supply to units in the hexes marked at the upper-right, shouldn't I? Assuming no enemy ZOC to bother me.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 1194

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 12:49:02 PM

WIF_Killzone

Posts: 277
Joined: 4/30/2009
Status: offline

No O-chit for DOW on USSR, hmm, I seem to recall someone sayng not to use it in spain :)

Don't get discouraged by our comments, we all are *really* enjoing your AAR and since you have been kind enough to explain your upcoming battle plans and troop disposition in detail, we just cant seem to help it give both wanted and unwanted "advice". Unfortunately, the groups language can sound a bit too direct sometimes, but I'm sure it is meant well, and not meant to diiscourge or upset you. Actuallly considering the interest and passion your AAR is generating the advice has been kept relatively to a minimum.

I for one, am now enjoying your strategy to what ever end may come, it's sure teaching this old dog new rules, other strategies, etc, etc.

Keep it up!

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 1195

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 1:11:33 PM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WIF_Killzone

No O-chit for DOW on USSR, hmm, I seem to recall someone sayng not to use it in spain :)

Don't get discouraged by our comments, we all are *really* enjoing your AAR and since you have been kind enough to explain your upcoming battle plans and troop disposition in detail, we just cant seem to help it give both wanted and unwanted "advice". Unfortunately, the groups language can sound a bit too direct sometimes, but I'm sure it is meant well, and not meant to diiscourge or upset you. Actuallly considering the interest and passion your AAR is generating the advice has been kept relatively to a minimum.

I for one, am now enjoying your strategy to what ever end may come, it's sure teaching this old dog new rules, other strategies, etc, etc.

Keep it up!

Thank you, again.

I'm not discouraged at all by the advice I'm given. There is no such thing as "unwanted advice" in my book. The more, the better. All I want is to continue moving forward, and stop moving backward. With rare exceptions, foreward thinking has been what I've seen in this forum, and it makes me happy to see it. The Axis strategic plans are actually running about 6-8 months ahead of what I expected when I planned them, and that means I need all the help I can get preparing both attack and defense.

Actually, while a few did question using the O-chit in Spain, there were others who said I might not need to rebuild it as early as I was going to. If not for that O-chit, I probably would not have the Germans in control of Morocco now. And, if that 2nd attack on Gibraltar had failed, the O-chit would have allowed a 3rd attack and that one was almost certain to succeed. It was a gamble. Gambles have consequences.

Germany now has a better multiplier, and should get 27 BP this turn (32 minus 2 to the Soviets and 3 to Italy). I want to build 2 MECH and an ARM to be used in the summer, costing 16 BP. That leaves me with 11 BP for Infantry classes, the latest model Stukas, and more SUBs. I could probably save a few BP by holding back on 1 of the MECH units, but I need to build the ARM now or it will come into the game too late to be truly useful. I want all 3 of those units on the map for the J/A '41 turn. Ideally, I would build the O-chit this turn, but given the somewhat lacking Soviet defenses . . . it may not be needed.

If I do build the O-chit now, it means I can only get the ARM, a LND-2, and an INF in addition to it. That's a possibility I might consider. Next turn I could build both MECH and have them arrive at the same time as the ARM, but this plan means I'd have to cut into my gearing limits for the SUBs and INF. I just don't know if it is worth it.
-----
Edit: Looking at the image in the post below, I'll actually probably either wait on the ARM or replace one of the MECH builds with the fresh HQ-A. No O-chit this turn, I'm afraid.

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/19/2012 1:22:17 PM >

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to WIF_Killzone)

Post #: 1196

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 1:19:51 PM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

To give you an idea of the German build options, here are the complete Force Pools for German land, air, and submarine units:

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 1197

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 3:15:06 PM

composer99

Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline

Build moar German FTR plz!

I should have thought of it earlier (e.g. in Sep/Oct 1940) but a supply unit for Ge or It would have been a good follow-up build (since as I recall you used the one Italy starts with, correct?) - it would have been handy to have stacked with one of the HQs in the Middle East during this summer to alleviate the supply problems noted upthread.

Regarding Japanese assistance in providing sea supply:
Once Japan is in the war, they and the European Axis can pair up to maintain sea supply via Basra back to Italy, making the supply situation much less parlous for the Mesopotamian Expeditionary Force.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 1198

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 3:27:41 PM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Build moar German FTR plz!

I should have thought of it earlier (e.g. in Sep/Oct 1940) but a supply unit for Ge or It would have been a good follow-up build (since as I recall you used the one Italy starts with, correct?) - it would have been handy to have stacked with one of the HQs in the Middle East during this summer to alleviate the supply problems noted upthread.

Regarding Japanese assistance in providing sea supply:
Once Japan is in the war, they and the European Axis can pair up to maintain sea supply via Basra back to Italy, making the supply situation much less parlous for the Mesopotamian Expeditionary Force.

I inend to build more German FTRs. I ran out of them and had to wait for more to show up. Reviewing the available units, they are a better choice than bombers, anyway, even if I didn't need them quite so much as I do.

RE: Supply Units
Wish I'd thought of that.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 1199

RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/19/2012 3:28:04 PM

brian brian

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

awww cheer up man, you're doing a heckuva job keeping us cranky snow-bound WiF addicts from getting the shakes. c'mon over here to the bar and I'll buy you a beer. try this one here from Belgium with the pink elefant on the label, it's so deliciously ironic. the internet is a crappy way to communicate. I should use more smileys I guess, but there aren't any rainbows and unicorns to pick from here, only My Little Pony. I'll trade you access to a copy of MWiF for an ever deepening file of correspondence with a state tax department computer that suggests I should file monthly with them even though I only work in their state two weeks a year, complete with estimated bills, penalties, interest charges, and now liens. I think this computer's next move will be to move me to being a bi-weekly filer so it can issue yet more pronouncements on me that no human even knows about.

and seriously, if you read the word "should", just replace it with the word "could", even if we don't. you really should enjoy the whole thing more if you didn't micro-debate every suggestion that comes in. obviously, you are a commander from a democratic country or else I would have been purged by now.

now, was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no it wasn't over. you don't have limited overseas supply to worry about and Suez is open now, so you should sail that Condor to the Marshalls and get-r-done. now get off the encrypted tele-type machine (the Allies captured the 5th wheel in the pocket of one of those sailors they sunk last month) and go out there and delete some enemy bitmaps!

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 1200