RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids)

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/16/2012 4:35:46 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michel92

quote:

Baelfiin

Hello All,

Thank you for your answer. Let see if I have understood it well.

To avoid the 47mm bug I we will need to restard the game from the beginning or at least from jan 42 ? We are playing since September and I am not sure, or if fact very sure, that we won't restrart from scratch.
We have around 3 years to go in the game and I am not sure that it is worthwhile to continu if the german et must first cope with the soviet resilience, the second front, the strategic bombing campain and so on AND is, on top of that, doomed by a bug that can't be fixed.

This is a sad news...

Tarhunnas, who played more than very well the german, has an army that is bathered partly do to the bug, and still continue to fight to the end may be an exception in terms of willingness to finish the Grand Campain as a german in this condition.

Ciao,

Michel

P.S. Please be indulgent with my English

Actually, I got this game corrected for the bug thanks to Pavel being very helpful (see post #676), so I should not be suffering from that bug. However, the AP i got as compensation were gone in a month, so I don't think the effect was all that great of the bug. The German ARM points problem is much larger. I now have 400k men in the manpower pool an no ARM points again!

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 1/16/2012 6:34:12 PM >

(in reply to Michel92)

Post #: 991

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/16/2012 6:34:54 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Turn 194. March 1 1945.

The reserve deployment of the SS-divisions seems to be paying dividends. An SS-division in reserve can ruin Ivans whole week...

I can't see any picture here.

Odd, I could see the picture yesterday, but not earlier today. Now I can see it again! Strange!

(in reply to Karri)

Post #: 992

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/16/2012 6:38:06 PM

Tarhunnas

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Turn 196. March 15 1945.

A spell of mud descends on Byelorussia, so that part of the front should be quiet for a while. Menawhile, in Rumania, Army Group E is bending back the flank, but so far, the Soviet advance in the Rumanian plains is not worrying. What is more serious is the ease with which the Soviets are penetrating the Carpathians further north. Map after Axis moves.

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Post #: 993

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/16/2012 6:41:02 PM

Tarhunnas

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A closeup of the Carpathians. Even the mountains cannot stop the Red horde from advancing one hex at a time... Soft factor is set to supply, so you can see that everyone is short on that.

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Post #: 994

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/16/2012 7:26:13 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
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From: Chicago, Illinois
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Not too many Russian Mountain Divisions. Did you kill them all?

As Soviets, I try to save as many as possible, for the Carpathians. Obviously, that is planning WAY ahead, like 3 years!

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Post #: 995

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/16/2012 8:53:39 PM

Tarhunnas

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IMHO saving mountain divisons hardly appears worth the effort from the Soviet perspective. There seems to be no difficulty attacking in mountains even with Mech Corps! See http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3010426

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Post #: 996

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/17/2012 12:37:26 PM

Ketza

Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michel92

quote:

Baelfiin

Hello All,

Thank you for your answer. Let see if I have understood it well.

To avoid the 47mm bug I we will need to restard the game from the beginning or at least from jan 42 ? We are playing since September and I am not sure, or if fact very sure, that we won't restrart from scratch.
We have around 3 years to go in the game and I am not sure that it is worthwhile to continu if the german et must first cope with the soviet resilience, the second front, the strategic bombing campain and so on AND is, on top of that, doomed by a bug that can't be fixed.

This is a sad news...

Tarhunnas, who played more than very well the german, has an army that is bathered partly do to the bug, and still continue to fight to the end may be an exception in terms of willingness to finish the Grand Campain as a german in this condition.

Ciao,

Michel

P.S. Please be indulgent with my English

Actually, I got this game corrected for the bug thanks to Pavel being very helpful (see post #676), so I should not be suffering from that bug. However, the AP i got as compensation were gone in a month, so I don't think the effect was all that great of the bug. The German ARM points problem is much larger. I now have 400k men in the manpower pool an no ARM points again!

What is the toe of your artillery SUs set at?

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Post #: 997

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/17/2012 10:27:11 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

What is the toe of your artillery SUs set at?

Mostly 70%

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Post #: 998

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/17/2012 10:28:36 PM

Tarhunnas

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Turn 197. March 22 1945. Snow. Nothing dramatic happening. A shot of production. Manpower pool is now above 400k.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/17/2012 11:33:43 PM

Q-Ball

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I wonder what would happen to your manpower if you start disbanding Artillery Units.

I might disband the ones that use divisional artillery pieces; I bet your Manpower pool empties a bit if you do that

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/18/2012 1:12:50 AM

Ketza

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I have ran pretty much the whole game with artillery SUs set at 50%. I am clearly no expert but I have not really had an AP issue going into mid 43. I was hit by the 47mm bug as you were also. Not sure how much of an impact setting things at 50% has but in your case I do not think it will hurt.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/18/2012 9:35:19 AM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I wonder what would happen to your manpower if you start disbanding Artillery Units.

I might disband the ones that use divisional artillery pieces; I bet your Manpower pool empties a bit if you do that

With "divisional artillery pieces" I assume you mean those that are also used by infantry divisions?

I might try some of that, though In general, I don't like having to fiddle with things like that, as I think the production system should be able to balance things without the player having to do odd things like starving the artillery of equipment. I think artillery should be more bang for the bucks than riflemen. Artillery after all is the cause of more than half of the casualties in WW2.

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Post #: 1002

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/18/2012 10:10:38 AM

karonagames

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quote:

I might try some of that, though In general, I don't like having to fiddle with things like that, as I think the production system should be able to balance things without the player having to do odd things like starving the artillery of equipment. I think artillery should be more bang for the bucks than riflemen. Artillery after all is the cause of more than half of the casualties in WW2.

There is a bit of a catch 22 here. Yes artillery should cause more casualties, but for the purposes of modified CVs, artillery has a value of 0 and infantry a value of 3. From 1943 onwards, Axis artillery is pretty much taken out of the game as far as combat casualties go because of the disruption from "jabos" and counter-battery fire. If you want a better chance of holding the ground you need all the boots and equipment on the ground that will contribute to the modified CV.

edit: Even support squads are worth more than artillery for modified CV purposes - see chart on pp 309-310.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 1/18/2012 10:14:08 AM >

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Post #: 1003

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/18/2012 11:31:09 AM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

I might try some of that, though In general, I don't like having to fiddle with things like that, as I think the production system should be able to balance things without the player having to do odd things like starving the artillery of equipment. I think artillery should be more bang for the bucks than riflemen. Artillery after all is the cause of more than half of the casualties in WW2.

There is a bit of a catch 22 here. Yes artillery should cause more casualties, but for the purposes of modified CVs, artillery has a value of 0 and infantry a value of 3. From 1943 onwards, Axis artillery is pretty much taken out of the game as far as combat casualties go because of the disruption from "jabos" and counter-battery fire. If you want a better chance of holding the ground you need all the boots and equipment on the ground that will contribute to the modified CV.

edit: Even support squads are worth more than artillery for modified CV purposes - see chart on pp 309-310.

I understand the game mechanichs, but I think that is counter-intuitive when comparing with history. IIRC about 80% of allied casualties from D-Day onwards was from German artillery, so despite the jabos etc, they apparently were effective.

(in reply to karonagames)

Post #: 1004

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/18/2012 11:50:06 AM

karonagames

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As noted elsewhere, "shooting" casualties account for about a third of casualties, attrition and retreat losses cause the rest, and a "hold" result can generate significant "retreat" losses for the attacker, so the mechanics clearly favour getting the best non-shooting casualties that you can.

It is one of Gary's fundamental design choices.

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Post #: 1005

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/18/2012 1:52:12 PM

krupp_88mm

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forgive me but i dont really understand how sending more "armaments" to artillery stops you form deploying infantry.. the system seems overly liquid, in that you can change machine gun ammo to artillery ammo guns and supplies?

I could understand trucks / fuel limiting supply capabilities or battle multipliers in efficiency, but i thought germany always had a surplus of machine guns and rifles and especially small arms ammo, late in the war they had so many machine guns they wre fitting entire platoons full of nothing but machine guns and panzerfausts

what im saying is shouldnt the men fill out the units anyway, just maybe with less equipment than they needed. i dont think there is ever a reason you shouldn't get a rifle squad as long as you have the men to fill it.

also on the note of artillery.. yeah artillery was so effective i dont think the US would even try to fight most of the time, their main doctrine was just to sit back and shoot artillery willy nilly then roll up about 150 shermans and halftracks with heavy air support to spook out the remaining defenders.. really courageous warriors they were, if the US fought like the russians they would have been in berlin in november 1944

(except for patton that guy was a REAL russian)

< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 1/18/2012 1:58:44 PM >

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Post #: 1006

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/18/2012 5:54:24 PM

Baelfiin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

forgive me but i dont really understand how sending more "armaments" to artillery stops you form deploying infantry.. the system seems overly liquid, in that you can change machine gun ammo to artillery ammo guns and supplies?

I could understand trucks / fuel limiting supply capabilities or battle multipliers in efficiency, but i thought germany always had a surplus of machine guns and rifles and especially small arms ammo, late in the war they had so many machine guns they wre fitting entire platoons full of nothing but machine guns and panzerfausts

what im saying is shouldnt the men fill out the units anyway, just maybe with less equipment than they needed. i dont think there is ever a reason you shouldn't get a rifle squad as long as you have the men to fill it.

also on the note of artillery.. yeah artillery was so effective i dont think the US would even try to fight most of the time, their main doctrine was just to sit back and shoot artillery willy nilly then roll up about 150 shermans and halftracks with heavy air support to spook out the remaining defenders.. really courageous warriors they were, if the US fought like the russians they would have been in berlin in november 1944

(except for patton that guy was a REAL russian)

+1 rifle squad

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/18/2012 5:58:28 PM

The SNAFU

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quote:

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

also on the note of artillery.. yeah artillery was so effective i dont think the US would even try to fight most of the time, their main doctrine was just to sit back and shoot artillery willy nilly then roll up about 150 shermans and halftracks with heavy air support to spook out the remaining defenders.. really courageous warriors they were, if the US fought like the russians they would have been in berlin in november 1944

(except for patton that guy was a REAL russian)

Certainly you're not suggesting the US troops were not courageous warriors. If the US fought like the Russians they would have been sending millions of people home in boxes. Yea, that would have been better...

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/18/2012 6:47:15 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The SNAFU
Certainly you're not suggesting the US troops were not courageous warriors.

Er, it sure seems like that is exactly what he is suggesting...I guess slightly ironic from a guy with a little pony avatar?

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/18/2012 9:03:22 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The SNAFU

quote:

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

also on the note of artillery.. yeah artillery was so effective i dont think the US would even try to fight most of the time, their main doctrine was just to sit back and shoot artillery willy nilly then roll up about 150 shermans and halftracks with heavy air support to spook out the remaining defenders.. really courageous warriors they were, if the US fought like the russians they would have been in berlin in november 1944

(except for patton that guy was a REAL russian)

Certainly you're not suggesting the US troops were not courageous warriors. If the US fought like the Russians they would have been sending millions of people home in boxes. Yea, that would have been better...

The Western powers tried to min the loses because they cared about the average trooper under their command. They had to answer to the general public. Stalin just did not care he had to answer to no one.

There is a reason the Red Empire fell apart, killing millions of your own poeple before and after WW2 just is not smart.

The Red Machine was spent by 1945.

Pelton

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/20/2012 7:59:52 PM

Tarhunnas

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Turn 198. March 29 1945. Snow.

Soviet exploiting Mech and Tank Corps are making the front in the Carpathians untenable in their latest winter mountain-offensive.

Attachment (1)

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/20/2012 8:04:12 PM

Tarhunnas

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A view of air losses so far.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/21/2012 1:00:02 AM

HvB

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I'm surprised to see Ar 234B losses at 100 already considering limited production and minimal susceptability to interception. I believe a little more than 200 were lost historically on both fronts in 44-45. Interesting to see that 50% of Soviet A/C losses were for operational reasons, and that more German A/C were destroyed on the ground than Soviet A/C.

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Post #: 1013

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/21/2012 8:03:54 AM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HvB

I'm surprised to see Ar 234B losses at 100 already considering limited production and minimal susceptability to interception. I believe a little more than 200 were lost historically on both fronts in 44-45. Interesting to see that 50% of Soviet A/C losses were for operational reasons, and that more German A/C were destroyed on the ground than Soviet A/C.

Yes, I was a bit surprised about that as well. The Ar 234 has only been in action for a couple of months, as the AI hadn't assiged them to units automatically, so I changed type manually a couple of months ago. There are only two units flying them.

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Post #: 1014

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/21/2012 8:09:43 AM

Tarhunnas

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Turn 199. April 5 1945. Mud.

The Soviet Mountain Mech Winter offensive is continuing to cause trouble in the Carpathians. Map before Axis moves.

On the rest of the front mostly a steady grind with not much interesting happening. There has been no Soviet breakthroughs for many turns now, only a steady push forward of one hex every turn. I think this is due to my reserve tactics coupled with Soviet supply problems. The mud should put an even bigger damper on things now. After mud I plan on retreating 8 or 10 hexes or so, to hopefully put the Soviets in new supply difficulties.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/21/2012 10:34:22 AM

MechFO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Turn 198. March 29 1945. Snow.

Soviet exploiting Mech and Tank Corps are making the front in the Carpathians untenable in their latest winter mountain-offensive.

A broad front push over mountain ranges in winter....just wrong on so many levels...

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Post #: 1016

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/21/2012 5:35:27 PM

Tarhunnas

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Turn 200! Treading where no man has gone before (AFAIK).

April 12 1945. Mud.

Not much happening due to the mud.

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/21/2012 5:48:19 PM

IdahoNYer

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Congrats on 200!! Finish line in sight!

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/21/2012 6:17:09 PM

Wuffer

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April and still no sight of sovjet tanks in eastern pruzzia - well done!

Would only be fair if this ends as a minor victory for you at least.

Did you like to show the oob's of your surviving formations?

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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 1/21/2012 6:24:42 PM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Turn 200! Treading where no man has gone before (AFAIK).

Congrats!

But I would say where no man had publicly (i.e. general public AAR) gone before...

Leo "Apollo11"

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