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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 9:35:58 AM   
kfsgo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Unfortunately we have strict HRs that limits night bombing to 10k feet and to 50 max bombers during the full moon nights.... Not a viable option...


You have to kind of admire Rader's brazenness in setting up this stuff, in a way.

quote:

For the third mission, LeMay had designated Osaka, not as yet hit by a major air strike. Osaka, situated on Osaka Bay, the eastern limit of the Inland Sea, was Japan's second city in size and in industrial production. Its harbor facilities and excellent rail and highway connections made Osaka an important transportation center. It produced about one-tenth of Japan's wartime total of ships, one-seventh of her electrical equipment, one-third of her machinery and machine tools. The Osaka army arsenal furnished 20 per cent of the army's ordnance requirements. No airplanes were assembled at Osaka, but nearly a fourth of its half-million workers were engaged in the manufacture of parts and components for aircraft and engines. Osaka was also a great commercial city and an important administrative center. Because of conscription and the mushrooming of war industrial plants in the suburbs, the population of the city proper had shrunk from 3,254,380 in 1940 to an estimated 2,142,480 in February 1945. This shift had reduced the density of population (to 81,000 per square mile for the central commercial section and adjacent residential-industrial districts) without greatly affecting the built-upness. The scene of many earlier disasters, Osaka had cut a number of firebreaks through congested areas to add to the protection given by its numerous canals and had built many modern fire-resistive buildings, but its crowded districts of highly inflammable houses offered an ideal incendiary target.

The Osaka strike was scheduled before final results of the Nagoya mission had been evaluated. Reports from observers were sufficient, however, to raise doubts as to the correctness of the tactics followed, and operational planners tried to reproduce the pattern which had worked so well at Tokyo. The intervalometer setting was changed back to fifty feet and crews were warned to achieve a higher concentration in the target area. No specific method was prescribed although crews were briefed to check position carefully before releasing the bombs.

Thanks to heroic efforts on the part of maintenance crews, the command was able to put up 301 B-29's in a late afternoon take-off on 13 March. The planes carried the same 6-ton bomb load, but the low wing was given .50-caliber ammunition for lower forward and aft turrets as well as for the tail guns. When the force of 274 planes that got over Osaka found an 8/10 cloud cover, it had to resort to radar bombing. This proved an advantage rather than a handicap. Unable to sow their bombs by sighting visually on pathfinder fires, bombardiers were forced to drop after a controlled run, releasing on an offset aiming point. With this technique, the B-29's achieved a thicker and more uniform pattern than had been possible with the impressionistic methods used at Nagoya.

The results showed conclusively that the Tokyo raid had not been a fluke. The 1,732.6 tons dropped on Osaka in about three hours wiped out 8.1 square miles in the heart of the city. The chief commercial district was ruined, and fires were kindled in the industrial sections where 119 major factories were destroyed, including some engaged in heavy industry. As the flames spread rapidly, fire-fighting and air-raid protection (ARP) services were completely demoralized. Casualties mounted as persons were suffocated in makeshift shelters or were burned trying to run through the flames. The records of the Osaka fire department listed 3,988 dead, 678 missing, 8,463 injured.


Note that the B-29B, which will make up half your total B-29 allotment from March 45, is explicitly a night bomber - all the defensive armament except the tail gun is removed.

< Message edited by kfsgo -- 1/23/2012 9:36:16 AM >

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 5881
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 9:50:40 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

GJ needs to capture at least one of the bases, this should be first priority as it makes the others more stable.  Pick the weakest and concentrate on it.  Smash it and dont be afraid as long as you are destroying his units.






Easier said than done my friend... Those pesky bases have 400,000 men each, with a HUGE amount of CD guns and AA guns, that make them almost untouchable for my bombers and my BBs can bomb them only by 30k yards (so very little damage)...

Today i'll test what Kfgo has suggested and see what happens...


Again you cant do anything, so in the end you'll accept a self sustained POW camp?

Time to get cracking and do something, can you slip troops between bases?
Can you lift off a Division or two from your beachheads and concentrate on 1 only?

What thoughts about knocking away some of the props, I believe you have a reserve, will it get used?

At least work out a plan and go for it, your Death or Glory approach seems to have fizzled out/

By the way, if forced to choose between GF and AE, toss the computer in the bin!

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 5882
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 10:30:24 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Unfortunately we have strict HRs that limits night bombing to 10k feet and to 50 max bombers during the full moon nights.... Not a viable option...



then you're bust. Having one side being in full fantasy mode with the other one stuck means the stuck one losing.

_____________________________


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Post #: 5883
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 10:44:24 AM   
paullus99


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Given the situation - your house rules are virtually guaranteeing that Rader is going to win this one. That he can throw thousands of aircraft at you, you can slaughter then by the thousands, yet he keeps coming back again and again, and yet you can't use the one huge advantage that you have, in a scenario designed to give the Japanese all the advantages they can get.

I think this one needs to be thrown out the window - tell Rader the deal & let him come up with an in-game solution.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to veji1)
Post #: 5884
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 11:05:57 AM   
cwDeici

 

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Virtually impossible might be a bit too strong, Nemo told us GJ could have destroyed his AC factory capacity in 1-3+ months with varying levels of focus, but that doesn't change the overall picture of things being stacked against an originally completely green GJ playing scenario 2 with homerules favoring Japan. It's a miracle to his credit and an open back door that he's managed to come from behind to probably finishing the war in 45.

I'm not sure I see the point though, since they agreed to play like this knowingly.

I'm sure Rader is aware Sc2 is a JFB wet dream, even if he thinks low-level stratbombing is broken and unrealistic.

< Message edited by cwDeici -- 1/23/2012 11:25:55 AM >

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 5885
RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/23/2012 11:11:49 AM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
A damned mistake costed me 4 CVEs......yesterday night my GF (Valentina) decided it was wise to spend the night by my appartment...so we went out with friends and when we came back i had the turn to play...i placed her on the sofa and asked her (politely) to stay quiet, to watch tv, and to leave me alone for an hour... it lasted less than 20 min...that she started to complain (That game is more important to you than me...you are obsessed by that game...who gives a **** about a canadian engineer who lives on the other side of the globe etc etc etc...bla bla blah....)...so i had to rush the orders and probably i messed up a bit...


Harsh. My other half knows that when the "Bee Game" is on I am otherwise engaged.

(She calls it the bee game because the hexes make it look like a honeycomb :) )

She actually likes it, she likes how regular it sounds. The music starts, depth charges and torpedoes, the drone of bombers, the whistling of bombs, explosions, artillery and machinegun noises, and finally kinda peaceful music for half an hour plus. She's heard it so many times now she knows the drill.

_____________________________


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RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/23/2012 11:24:27 AM   
cwDeici

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
Harsh. My other half knows that when the "Bee Game" is on I am otherwise engaged.

(She calls it the bee game because the hexes make it look like a honeycomb :) )

She actually likes it, she likes how regular it sounds. The music starts, depth charges and torpedoes, the drone of bombers, the whistling of bombs, explosions, artillery and machinegun noises, and finally kinda peaceful music for half an hour plus. She's heard it so many times now she knows the drill.


She sounds nice. You're a lucky man!

(in reply to EUBanana)
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RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/23/2012 12:00:04 PM   
kfsgo

 

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By the way, here's another version of the sandbox with some assault shipping prepositioned so you don't have to sit around for a week and a half waiting for it:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1HrlfgCveF5YmQ4OTFkYWQtYWNjMC00NmNkLWEwYmEtNzNkZmVkMTZkMThh

(in reply to cwDeici)
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RE: HAIRY TO THE BONE - 1/23/2012 12:16:41 PM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cwDeici

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
Harsh. My other half knows that when the "Bee Game" is on I am otherwise engaged.

(She calls it the bee game because the hexes make it look like a honeycomb :) )

She actually likes it, she likes how regular it sounds. The music starts, depth charges and torpedoes, the drone of bombers, the whistling of bombs, explosions, artillery and machinegun noises, and finally kinda peaceful music for half an hour plus. She's heard it so many times now she knows the drill.


She sounds nice. You're a lucky man!


That I am.

Unlike Greyjoy, not for his romantic liaisons, but due to the house rules he's labouring under. Night bombing was a major part of the war at this point, LeMay and all, and this has been HRed out of existence entirely?

I think a problem with the HRs in these games is that they tend to focus on what happens and what should not happen in 1942. Few games make it to 1944 or beyond, but when you do reach this stage those HRs begin to look dated, as they are attempting to constrain you to 1942 practices which no longer make historical sense.

_____________________________


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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 12:55:29 PM   
GreyJoy


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Hi guys....well, i'll talk about the night bombing HRs with Rader...let's see what he thinks about it...

Kfsgo: Thanks again! I've made several tests...under the current conditions supplies seem to be flowing even with a full US Corp landed at Ominato...
The key is the strenght of the japanese forces in a contested base. If the japanese force has a strenght = or > than the allies in a contested hex, the supplies flows without any problem...:-/

I'll do some more tests but i fear this idea won't work...

(in reply to veji1)
Post #: 5890
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 1:01:53 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


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I always knew you must be Theon Greyjoy. Geting distracted from the war by a woman...yeah thats Theon
Uhm...how is your sister ? ^^

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 1:40:57 PM   
hades1001

 

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Am I the first one to express my surprise about 14 months earlier production of one Japs best fighters?

How the hell did Radar achieve this? This is way off the balance chart now. 14 months!

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)
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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 1:44:34 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Am I the first one to express my surprise about 14 months earlier production of one Japs best fighters?

How the hell did Radar achieve this? This is way off the balance chart now. 14 months!

If I remember right their game had a bug which made this happen and is solved now. R&D facory contributed points if repaired or not.

_____________________________



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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 1:49:21 PM   
veji1

 

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The very existence of that Bug should allow GJ to throw the HRs out of the window. I mean what would Rader say if there had been a bug giving an infinite number of MIdway class CVs with their complement of brand new planes starting july 1944 ?

I think if presented convincingly but tactfully, the case for the dropping of the bombing HRs is very strong and Rader would agree to it.

_____________________________

Adieu Ô Dieu odieux... signé Adam

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)
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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 1:51:39 PM   
hades1001

 

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Thanks milady, but I'm still wondering how long did they use that patch in terms of game time?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Am I the first one to express my surprise about 14 months earlier production of one Japs best fighters?

How the hell did Radar achieve this? This is way off the balance chart now. 14 months!

If I remember right their game had a bug which made this happen and is solved now. R&D facory contributed points if repaired or not.


(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 5895
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 2:05:53 PM   
Wuffer

 

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Ante Portas


Seven years after landing the situation of the Greaks was really desolate. Most of the former heroes were dead and the survivors suffers badly, whipped out by cholera and pest, while Troy's walls were strong as ever... And even worser, the sons of Hektor had been grown up now, thirsty for reverange.
In this situation, GJ Barcas showed his real genius: Instead of making quick and insufficient turns, he left his fighters and last elephants alone for few days and visit his GF.
And then he reminds himself of the only Odysseus, who's advice had always been spot on - meet the right people at the right time...



(in reply to veji1)
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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 2:17:56 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Hi guys....well, i'll talk about the night bombing HRs with Rader...let's see what he thinks about it...

Kfsgo: Thanks again! I've made several tests...under the current conditions supplies seem to be flowing even with a full US Corp landed at Ominato...
The key is the strenght of the japanese forces in a contested base. If the japanese force has a strenght = or > than the allies in a contested hex, the supplies flows without any problem...:-/

I'll do some more tests but i fear this idea won't work...




you just have to look at the ZOCs. With your troops landing in the hex you control no ZOCs and so troops and supply can flow. If you try to march your troops out you will find out it won't work as you don't control a ZOC you may march through.

_____________________________


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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 2:19:34 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Am I the first one to express my surprise about 14 months earlier production of one Japs best fighters?

How the hell did Radar achieve this? This is way off the balance chart now. 14 months!

If I remember right their game had a bug which made this happen and is solved now. R&D facory contributed points if repaired or not.



According to n1849123 this is no bug but has always been possible if you know how to. And I have not heard about it being changed, of course, I may not have heard everything.

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 2:45:57 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Am I the first one to express my surprise about 14 months earlier production of one Japs best fighters?

How the hell did Radar achieve this? This is way off the balance chart now. 14 months!

If I remember right their game had a bug which made this happen and is solved now. R&D facory contributed points if repaired or not.


According to n1849123 this is no bug but has always been possible if you know how to. And I have not heard about it being changed, of course, I may not have heard everything.


If I am reading the question correctly ... According to Michealm this was a bug and is fixed ..

[1108q4]
Fixed Restored fully repaired factory needed before R&D starts [MEM]


< Message edited by Crackaces -- 1/23/2012 2:46:27 PM >

(in reply to castor troy)
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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 3:25:42 PM   
veji1

 

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If it's a bug and it has massive effect on the game it can either be legitmately affected by HRs designed to deal with it (limited conversion to Shindens for so and so months, etc...) or just free your 4E or their shackles.

_____________________________

Adieu Ô Dieu odieux... signé Adam

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 3:30:32 PM   
GreyJoy


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Guys, for what concerns the R&D capabilities, i have no problem about it. I mean, this is scen2, which is a what if scenario by definition.
If Rader had the resources to speed up his R&D process it was obviously my fault not to prevent him from aquiring all that ground (China and India) that let him support his industrial capabilities...
And, however, deep in my heart i'm an axis fanboy and i've always loved those SCI-FI novels where Germany counters the allied landings with thousands of Me-262 and Me-163...or destroys NY with the AMERIKA BOMBER 

....so that's not a problem...it will be challenging...we're back in 1942 with P-40s facing Tojos...it's more or less the same. We've lived once to tell that tale...we'll live once more

I've asked Rader what he thinks about the night bombing rule...let's see! Thanks for pointing it out!

Jeff...i'm seriously thinking about what to do...i'm taking some hours of break in order to decide what to do...i'll do some more testing with Ksfgo's scenario but from what i've seen so far i have not many hopes...

Thank you all for your support guys!!!!!


(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 5901
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 3:34:25 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Am I the first one to express my surprise about 14 months earlier production of one Japs best fighters?

How the hell did Radar achieve this? This is way off the balance chart now. 14 months!

If I remember right their game had a bug which made this happen and is solved now. R&D facory contributed points if repaired or not.


According to n1849123 this is no bug but has always been possible if you know how to. And I have not heard about it being changed, of course, I may not have heard everything.


If I am reading the question correctly ... According to Michealm this was a bug and is fixed ..

[1108q4]
Fixed Restored fully repaired factory needed before R&D starts [MEM]




IIRC Damian found a way to still do it and this had nothing to do with non repaired factories. I could be wrong but that was my last info.

_____________________________


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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 3:43:49 PM   
GreyJoy


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Well, even if it was a bug, Rader has invested a lot in this feature and it would be unfair to stop him now that he finally got his toys...i'd be salivating if i was him waiting for the first Ki-201 to come out...

So, probably the best way to deal with bugs (if ever it's a bug) is just keep on going on.

I'm just concerned about what Ksfgo said about half of my B-29s arriving withour defensive armament ...so we probably need to re-think our HR about night bombing....let's see what Rader thinks about it. I trust his judgement

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 5903
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 3:49:18 PM   
beppi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Well, even if it was a bug, Rader has invested a lot in this feature and it would be unfair to stop him now that he finally got his toys...i'd be salivating if i was him waiting for the first Ki-201 to come out...

So, probably the best way to deal with bugs (if ever it's a bug) is just keep on going on.

I'm just concerned about what Ksfgo said about half of my B-29s arriving withour defensive armament ...so we probably need to re-think our HR about night bombing....let's see what Rader thinks about it. I trust his judgement


You should at least negotiate a HR exception for the designated night bombing B-29. Otherwise you could just scrap them. Against heavy armed late war fighters even the normal B-29 versions are quite easy shot down. The ones without defensive armament will just be dead meat. Basically the only way to use them would be in combination with large amounts of other bombers which might provide a little defensive (and box) protection. But even then they will be very weak.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 5904
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 4:01:48 PM   
kfsgo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Well, even if it was a bug, Rader has invested a lot in this feature and it would be unfair to stop him now that he finally got his toys...i'd be salivating if i was him waiting for the first Ki-201 to come out...

So, probably the best way to deal with bugs (if ever it's a bug) is just keep on going on.

I'm just concerned about what Ksfgo said about half of my B-29s arriving withour defensive armament ...so we probably need to re-think our HR about night bombing....let's see what Rader thinks about it. I trust his judgement


Won't comment on the fighter acceleration thing as it'd be pretty rude.

If it's any consolation, the B-29B do carry almost twice the bombload of the earlier models in exchange for all the guns...they're just not really daylight aircraft. A similar sort of situation can be seen with the Wellington - they were used more or less exclusively for night bombing (as were RAF Liberators until quite late), and the replacement rate is sufficient to do that but not to operate in daylight, which causes a lot of stress when players do and they get intercepted by anything more than a solitary Nate, heh.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 4:04:44 PM   
hades1001

 

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I believe the numbers of Planes you are getting right now, both fighters and bombers, won't be even close to enough for you future strat bombing.

I heard that if you jump onto Korea right now, you can trigger Soviet join the war. And if it's confirmed, I suggest you drag THE GREAT SOVIET RED ARMY into war ASAP

< Message edited by hades1001 -- 1/23/2012 4:07:30 PM >

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 4:06:23 PM   
GreyJoy


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Rader proposed a rule that says, more or less: NightType bombers can city bomb (only manpower) from 20k feet at night without any limitations.

It sounds pretty fair to me...what do you think?

In fact, Rader's concerns about the effectiveness of night bombing (especially over AFs) are probably correct.... I've seen in Nemo's AAR that his betties were able to keep closed an allied AF at night flying at 100ft....

I'll try to do some tests tonight.... now i gotta go back to work

(in reply to kfsgo)
Post #: 5907
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 4:09:30 PM   
hades1001

 

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I believe the night bombing is pretty broken in this game.

But what exact the good does bombing his man power do?

(in reply to GreyJoy)
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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 4:10:36 PM   
Dan Nichols


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NO, not at all fair.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/23/2012 4:13:49 PM   
String


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

I believe the night bombing is pretty broken in this game.

But what exact the good does bombing his man power do?


I'd say 10k feet, as they did so historically and atleast for B-29B's low level night bombing was one of their design principles iirc.

_____________________________

Surface combat TF fanboy

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