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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE!

 
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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 12:41:56 AM   
Mistmatz

 

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Why exactely is Sadogashima important?

I am not familiar with that part of the map (yet), but it looks like it's an island with no land connection to Japan proper. Thus I don't see the strategic value of the island that might justify the risk.



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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 12:53:33 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

Why exactely is Sadogashima important?

I am not familiar with that part of the map (yet), but it looks like it's an island with no land connection to Japan proper. Thus I don't see the strategic value of the island that might justify the risk.




Correct.

Its only value is as a forward airbase for an air campaign which GreyJoy has consistently said he will not do. As an island it was never going to attract Japanese reinforcements and thereby reduce pressure on the existing Honshu lodgements.

Now it can only survive if a concentrated Allied barge resupply effort is instituted. If not, those units are dead meat a few months down the line.

Alfred

(in reply to Mistmatz)
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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 1:19:35 AM   
krupp_88mm


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its obviously your GF's fault, her nagging led to your slip ups, i think you know who has to pay for this.



If you need help thinking of appropriate "punishments" fitting, let me know i have ideas.

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 1:32:24 AM   
kfsgo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

Why exactely is Sadogashima important?

I am not familiar with that part of the map (yet), but it looks like it's an island with no land connection to Japan proper. Thus I don't see the strategic value of the island that might justify the risk.




Without commenting on the mechanics of everything involved today...

It's an airfield 4 hexes away from Tokyo and 6 from Osaka...and there's no land connection with the rest of Japan. So, conceptually, it's a "safe" (usual caveats...) base from which to better prosecute an aerial campaign against those places in particular, and Japan outside of northern Honshu in general.

Whether it's important; at this point I can't personally see it, to be honest. My sense is that it's kind of solving a problem that doesn't so much exist any more - however many months ago while the 'strategic' campaign was going on it'd have been tremendously useful, in permitting a really concentrated effort against Tokyo etc by those aircraft whose performance against fighters is high but which are at or approaching the point of having range issues flying from Hokkaido (so think Spitfire 8, early P-47 etc). Absent that it's not really meaningful in itself; the US is at the point of starting to field aircraft with the range to do that effectively from Hokkaido anyway, and the day bomber force is apparently not a useful tool any more.

With that said, supplying it should actually be fairly doable, I'd think - whatever else it should give the USN good enough sea control over the western coast of Honshu to clear Japanese light forces out, and it's only a day's sail from Hakodate for a fast freighter, or an overnight from some of the 'invasion' beaches like Akita etc which the Japanese seem to have mostly given up contesting air control over. You'd have to run them in independently, so they'd be vulnerable to submarines, but that's not necessarily the end of the world at this point. There'll be some losses, but they shouldn't be huge. Now, whether even small losses are a good investment...

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 1:58:03 AM   
Alfred

 

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If the port facilities have not already been built up, getting supply in on merchantmen is not going to be easy. If it is still only a port size 2, barge resupply is the only realistic way in. Even if the port is fully built up to level 4 getting merchantmen in will be difficult but doable if the ship losses are acceptable.

The problem is that airfield (which may not have been built up by rader) is surrounded by multiple large enemy airfields which will be largely immune to most Allied air strikes from Hokkaido. Allied LRCAP of resupply convoys will not be particularly effective and a size 2 port will mean lengthy unloading times. Thus a lot of supply potentailly will end up at the bottom of the Sea of Japan. Definitely barges will be the best way to get supply in. In any case merchantmen will not make the one way trip from Hokkaido overnight. Thus they will be vulnerable to kamikazes.

Alfred

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 2:32:35 AM   
Chickenboy


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@ GreyJoy,

Sorry about your losses here, mate. I'll not go into 'told ya so's' or 'what were you thinkin'? They'll be time enough for all that another time. Just know that many in this forum appreciate your ongoing effort and have fun with your game, dude.

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 2:32:46 AM   
jeffk3510


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Agree with both of Alfreds last posts...and I dont see the value of the bases, especially with the loss of ones entire carrier fleet...

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Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

(in reply to Alfred)
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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 2:55:51 AM   
DTurtle

 

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Posted this in the other thread too:

Well, if you look at the key raid, Greyjoy had 1200 fighters on CAP vs 270 bombers and 470 escorts.

230 bombers made an attack run scoring 31 hits.

So it wasn't a problem of CAP not being there, but simply being ineffective.

< Message edited by DTurtle -- 1/26/2012 3:06:50 AM >

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 3:01:52 AM   
kfsgo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

If the port facilities have not already been built up, getting supply in on merchantmen is not going to be easy. If it is still only a port size 2, barge resupply is the only realistic way in. Even if the port is fully built up to level 4 getting merchantmen in will be difficult but doable if the ship losses are acceptable.

The problem is that airfield (which may not have been built up by rader) is surrounded by multiple large enemy airfields which will be largely immune to most Allied air strikes from Hokkaido. Allied LRCAP of resupply convoys will not be particularly effective and a size 2 port will mean lengthy unloading times. Thus a lot of supply potentailly will end up at the bottom of the Sea of Japan. Definitely barges will be the best way to get supply in.



Will kamikazes attack independent sailings, though? I find regular naval strikes mostly tend not to - adding even a single escort ship will attract strikes, but individual merchants themselves seem to be pretty much ignored by coherent attacks (though vulnerable to the naval-search-drops-a-bomb 'passive' sort of attacks). Not sure if kamikazes behave differently, though - I suppose it's possible.

If they do, then sure, it's a risk - if they don't, though, it's mostly a case of making sure ship density doesn't increase so much as to prompt attacks en-route; once they've arrived they shouldn't be in excessive danger (it becoming a kind of - "do I really want to trade 50 kamikazes for a single merchant" thing) as long as the airfield's working. Frankly, that's what I'd be more worried about - no real engineers or naval support seemed come in with the main landings, which seems like asking for trouble...

quote:

In any case merchantmen will not make the one way trip from Hokkaido overnight. Thus they will be vulnerable to kamikazes.


Right, which is why I didn't say that. A 14kt ship will do Akita to the island overnight, though, and 17kt ships like the Victories will do Hirosaki overnight - and Allied air control over those bases seems to be pretty good, so they can always stage in through those bases even absent control.

I guess it'll come down to how big a threat Japan considers the island to be, whether or not it particularly is one...


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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 3:13:04 AM   
hades1001

 

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I have to say that the AE's A2A model need major modification.

And several wave of coordinated strike with 500-600 Japs planes in each wave is physically and logically impossible.

Unfortunately I see this kind of coordination in most of my tests.

At least you have landed at Japan, think about those Allies who still stuck at Solomons in 1944(which is highly possible) for lots of the Allied players.




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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 3:15:11 AM   
Miller


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A very brave move by GJ, but any Allied commander viewing the outcome of that will not send his CVs within 12 hexes of mainland Japan, period.

< Message edited by Miller -- 1/26/2012 3:17:13 AM >

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 3:18:36 AM   
hades1001

 

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And some body please enlighten me how radar manage to sustain such high quality of pilots with all his A/C losses?

It's a miracle to me.

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 3:35:11 AM   
Miller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

And some body please enlighten me how radar manage to sustain such high quality of pilots with all his A/C losses?

It's a miracle to me.


Sheer weight of numbers I guess. Pilots can be trained up to a specifc skill of 60+ in a month and Japan gets plenty of training sqds later in the game......

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 3:39:13 AM   
Canoerebel


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Star Wars.

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 3:48:36 AM   
hades1001

 

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a coordinated strike of 600 planes sounds too sci-fi to me.

Even at the beginning of the war Japs sent two wave of 108 planes each as coordinated strike. And each of the pilot in the attack is an ACE!

So later in the war with worse quality of pilots it's just so unrealistic for a 600 planes in a single wave and they attack the fleet at the same time?

Come on. System definitely failed here.

The air combat simulation of large number planes involved is broken. Totally.

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 3:55:24 AM   
Canoerebel


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I'm sure GJ knows this, but the first thing rader is going to try to figure out now is whether he can employ the KB.  Does he know how many carriers GJ has left?  Does he think GJ will have trouble covering his supply lines between Japan, Alaska, and the West Coast.  GJ will have to look to that first and foremost.

In the meantime, the game may slow considerably from its frantic and entertaining pace as GJ probably has to attend to alot of the small stuff, especially nursing his strike aircraft back to healthy levels. 

The Japanese airforce should have been crippled by rader's profligate ways in this game.  There is no way Japan should be in the position to just wreak havoc just a day or a week after losing thousands and thousands of aircraft in a single engagement or series of engagements.  And after rader has taken the cumulative abuse suffered during the war, his back should have been broken.  If his didn't break under the avalanche of losses suffered in this game, there's little hope for the Allied player to win the air war against a capable Japanese player.

Star Wars. 

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 4:04:12 AM   
hades1001

 

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apparently radar has his way of massively producing qualified pilots. The result achieved can't be done without at least 70 exp/70 skill pilots according to my tests.

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 4:25:05 AM   
vicberg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

apparently radar has his way of massively producing qualified pilots. The result achieved can't be done without at least 70 exp/70 skill pilots according to my tests.


It's not pilot quality. Check this out. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2859420&mpage=51&key=200%2Cfiring%2Cpasses�

I may be wrong about what I'm finding. I'm searching on 200 firing passes. That seems to be the limit of an engagement, so having 1200 CAP doesn't matter. There's a limit on the number of firing passes that CAP makes regardless of CAP size. 200...TOTAL. This means that larger inbound strikes have a much greater chance of success. 400 bombers, 200 will make it through. In the "experimental" version, not sure what that is, they are working on changing it. It means that unescorted 4Es are going to have a rougher time and JAP strikes will get mauled unless sufficiently escorted. In this game though, the sheer numbers are exposing some design limitations. Unfortunate. If this is old information (public beta 6), then forget what I'm writing. But it did seem to be the case here.

As far as pilot quality goes, if there's enough trainers in Manchuko or elsewhere, the japs will have plenty of good pilots.

Though I agree that coordination is off the charts, I also think that being able to base 1000+ aircraft at a single level 9 air base and not suffer from overstacking is also off the charts. There aren't enough runways to launch that many planes.

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 4:33:50 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm sure GJ knows this, but the first thing rader is going to try to figure out now is whether he can employ the KB.  Does he know how many carriers GJ has left?  Does he think GJ will have trouble covering his supply lines between Japan, Alaska, and the West Coast.  GJ will have to look to that first and foremost.

In the meantime, the game may slow considerably from its frantic and entertaining pace as GJ probably has to attend to alot of the small stuff, especially nursing his strike aircraft back to healthy levels. 

The Japanese airforce should have been crippled by rader's profligate ways in this game.  There is no way Japan should be in the position to just wreak havoc just a day or a week after losing thousands and thousands of aircraft in a single engagement or series of engagements.  And after rader has taken the cumulative abuse suffered during the war, his back should have been broken.  If his didn't break under the avalanche of losses suffered in this game, there's little hope for the Allied player to win the air war against a capable Japanese player.

Star Wars. 

Meh. I can counter your "Star Wars" observations with the other worldly LCU presence of the Allies at this stage. Total fiction. S'OK. It's a game. Just don't pretend that the balance of fiction lies solely with the Japanese side, mate.

If you want a semblance of realism, with all due respect, the Allies should sue for peace right now. Losing 20 (?) aircraft carriers, at least 30,000 Allied sailors drowned in one day...it boggles the mind what sorts of turnover would be had at the highest levels of the military. It makes the Japanese post-Midway cover-up look like a game of hide and go seek.

Sorry to taint your AAR with these counters, GreyJoy. Enjoying your experiences with the game and your tales immensely. Please keep up the good work.

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 4:35:12 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Star Wars.

Injudicious use of available assets. Combined with the omnipresent and unchanging realities of the game engine. What's good for the goose and all that...

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 4:36:48 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

A very brave move by GJ, but any Allied commander viewing the outcome of that will not send his CVs within 12 hexes of mainland Japan, period.

At least not in early 1944 before destroying / attriting the bulk of the IJNAF and KB.

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 4:54:49 AM   
CaptBeefheart


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Wow, sorry to see this and sorry to suggest CAP could handle such an attack in my last comment.  A toast to the brave, lost sailors of TF58.

Well, on the positive side, what you are doing here GJ is providing some excellent feedback to make this game even better, while providing a lot of entertainment. Thanks for doing so.

Cheers,
CC


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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 5:26:30 AM   
JeffroK


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Half a league, half a league,
  Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.

I think you suffered from the limited CAP attacks where apparantly you only get 200 shots at the attackers.
Plus the nerfed AAA in the game doesnt knock down 10% of IRL numbers.
And you stuck your head into the lions mouth, without at the same time ensure he was dead!


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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

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Post #: 6023
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 5:31:14 AM   
JeffroK


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Plus I still dont know if he has won the Tim Tebow award, is this another pick6?

Dont forget I brought up the Battle of the Crater.


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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

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Post #: 6024
HOLD FAST! - 1/26/2012 7:16:34 AM   
GreyJoy


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The way i see it, in this very specific case it wasn't a "code" fault...but simply bad luck (combined probably with a mistake of mine)
If you read the combat report it seems that placing most of my fighters on CAP (between 60 and 70%, i checked) have resulted in a "reverse midway effect"...where the bulk of my fighters were caught while refueling/rearming and only 30% of them were available to scramble or were already in the air....

Then, during the second strike, most of my fighters were out of position (look at the time necessary to reach the target)...and so on....

Bad luck i say...and, a part from the fact that probably 60% CAP isn't a good thing, i couldn't do much more...



On a strategical answer....my view was (and IS) that Sadogashima (obviously with the allied CVs still intact) could have been a perfect way of bypassing the north.....if defended and well supplied (and obviously this mean with the allied CV threat still active) it could have provided a lot of close support CAP to an invasion of the Nijigata Area....without even using the CVs (that was the idea)...and so forcing Rader to committ his reserves in this area...

Obviously now everything changes and Sado will be bombed to death by Rader....let's see if i can re-supply it...will be a good battleground

But, hey, we're not dead yet! I still have 8 CVs undamaged and some usefull 20 CVEs....which means a carrier force of more than 1000 carrier planes...enough to ruin KB's day if we have to clash with each other (out of LBA range clearly)...

Valar Morghulis....all men must die

(in reply to JeffroK)
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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 7:20:49 AM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Half a league, half a league,
  Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.


Picket's charge song?

DixieLand


(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 6026
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 7:22:45 AM   
Alfred

 

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The fast Allied merchantmen also have a large cargo carrying capacity. At a size 2 port, they will be taxing the stevedores ability to unload them in the same phase and thus will be prone to remain within the target hairs of the enemy bombers.

What rader needs to do to maximise his opportunity is:

(a) have his attack bombers limited to a range which covers Sadogashima
(b) primary mission naval attack
(c) secondary mission port attack
(d) target set to Sadogashima
(e) deploy minefields at Sadogashima and on the direct approach routes
(f) set some fighter LRCAP over Sadogashima to bag Allied air transports flying in supply
(g) regularly send in small suicidal landing parties to force Allied consumption rates above the single ship resupply rates

The initial Allied landing wave so its AV reduced from approximately 1100 unadjusted AV to about 70 adjusted AV. That means a lot of rest and recovery time is needed, and that needs supply.



As to the CAP failure, the wrong lessons are being presented.

(1) This game is being played with the new 300 flight limit

(2) In theory up to 2400 Allied fighters could have participated in combat, and had they done so they could have wiped out completely the enemy bomber. That less than that number participated in the defense of the Allied carriers has nothing to do with the flight limit

(3) IIRC, approximately 40% of the potential Allied fighter CAP was already tasked to provide LRCAP over the transports at the beachhead some hexes away. That was a player decision and not the victim of the game code

(4) Much of the remaining available Allied CAP had a time to interception longer than the time to target of the incoming bombers, thus it was out of position. Being out of position is a major factor in determining whether it gets a chance to participate in combat at all or when it does, such as pre or post the raid

(5) With multiple CV TFs located in the same hex there is an opportunity for the CAP of all the TFs to participate but only the CAP of the computer targetted TF is in the optimal position to intercept. The CAP of the adjacent TFs has to move into position

(6) Allied CAP was set to only 60%. In view of (a) the short journey, (b) the short term exposure of the carriers and (c) the anticipated heavy enemy response (evidenced by the carriers having bomber units replaced by additional fighter units), a good argument could be made that 100% CAP should have been set

(7) CAP altitude was too staggered. The main reason why one wants to stagger CAP is to counter sweeps. Generally speaking a maximum of 3 altitudes suffices to counter sweeps. Again 3 altitudes, albeit at different heights, generally suffices to meet kamikazes. To counter normal enemy bomber strikes 2 maybe 3 CAP altitudes will normally suffice for the enemy bombers have set attack profile runs. Bottom line, by having so many different CAP altitudes, more CAP fighters were already being placed out of position to quickly respond and get into optimal position

(8) GreyJoy had no prior experience of handling the massed Allied carrier fleet. LBA and CV based air have one thing in common; they both fly through the air. Otherwise there are some significant differences between the two regarding how the player should approach their utilisation.

So once again before jumping on the bandwagon of criticising the game engine people would do well to consider what player made decisions contributed to the outcome. As to the overall strategy employed here and previously, I will maintain my continued silence.

Alfred

(in reply to JeffroK)
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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 7:28:54 AM   
CT Grognard

 

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"Charge of the Light Brigade", by Alfred, Lord Tennyson.

"The Trooper" by Iron Maiden was based on this poem:

The bugle sounds as the charge begins
But on this battlefield no one wins
The smell of acrid smoke and horses breath
As you plunge into a certain death

The horse he sweats with fear we break to run
The might roar of the Russian guns
And as we race towards the human wall
The screams of pain as my comrades fall

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6028
RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 8:00:15 AM   
LoBaron


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Alfred covered the CAP topic brilliantly, as always.

I only like to add that different settings, such as LRCAP or CAP, do not reserve
a specific plane for a specific mission for the whole day. It only displays the probability
of mission type assigned for a specific plane which is about to be launched.

If you set a squad to 60% CAP, 40% LRCAP for example, expect a lot more than 40% of total a/c
affected by the percentage flying LRCAP mission.
Since LRCAP naturally results in a much higher attrition rate because of distance, air time,
plane fatigue, and so on, a high percentage of planes return from LRCAP to refuel/rearm/maintenance
during the resolution phase, with negative impact on any planes available to be launched on CAP missions,
or react to incoming strikes immediately.

It might be this added to the low readiness numbers to counter the first strike.

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RE: 1st oct 1944 Shidens ONLINE! - 1/26/2012 8:06:12 AM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

(3) IIRC, approximately 40% of the potential Allied fighter CAP was already tasked to provide LRCAP over the transports at the beachhead some hexes away. That was a player decision and not the victim of the game code

(4) Much of the remaining available Allied CAP had a time to interception longer than the time to target of the incoming bombers, thus it was out of position. Being out of position is a major factor in determining whether it gets a chance to participate in combat at all or when it does, such as pre or post the raid

(5) With multiple CV TFs located in the same hex there is an opportunity for the CAP of all the TFs to participate but only the CAP of the computer targetted TF is in the optimal position to intercept. The CAP of the adjacent TFs has to move into position

(6) Allied CAP was set to only 60%. In view of (a) the short journey, (b) the short term exposure of the carriers and (c) the anticipated heavy enemy response (evidenced by the carriers having bomber units replaced by additional fighter units), a good argument could be made that 100% CAP should have been set

(7) CAP altitude was too staggered. The main reason why one wants to stagger CAP is to counter sweeps. Generally speaking a maximum of 3 altitudes suffices to counter sweeps. Again 3 altitudes, albeit at different heights, generally suffices to meet kamikazes. To counter normal enemy bomber strikes 2 maybe 3 CAP altitudes will normally suffice for the enemy bombers have set attack profile runs. Bottom line, by having so many different CAP altitudes, more CAP fighters were already being placed out of position to quickly respond and get into optimal position

(8) GreyJoy had no prior experience of handling the massed Allied carrier fleet. LBA and CV based air have one thing in common; they both fly through the air. Otherwise there are some significant differences between the two regarding how the player should approach their utilisation.

So once again before jumping on the bandwagon of criticising the game engine people would do well to consider what player made decisions contributed to the outcome. As to the overall strategy employed here and previously, I will maintain my continued silence.

Alfred


(3) Alfred, the numbers present in the combat report were fighters all set to CAP and not LRCAP. I placed on LRCAP only the Hellcats-3, while Hellcats-5 (plus a small % of Hellcats 3) and the corsairs were all on CAP (60% or 70%) with range 0. So i had more than 1000 fighters on CAP over my CVs.

(4) but this wasn't my fault, right? just bad dice and rolls?

(5) Got it...

(6) I see...i set the CAP at 60/70 because i wanted to avoid what seems to have happened...that our fighters weren't ready to scramble when needed because all of them were out of position. The problem i see is the "stand-by" position when the raid arrived...to me that means that my fighters were refueling ...wouldn't have been better, in retrospective, to have say 30% on CAP and the rest ready to scramble?

(7) well...i feared the Kamikaze Nemo's approach...meaning lots of different altitudes (from 42k to 100 feet) in order to catch the CAP anaware...

(8) true...but sooner or later i had to try, right?

As always thanks for your insight mate!

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 6030
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