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With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 1:56:09 PM   
SuluSea


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Status: offline 		I just finished With the Old Breed by E.B.Sledge . What a great read! I thoroughly enjoyed every bit of it. I'm wondering if any who have read both would like to share their thoughts on China Marine by Sledge. I have many books in the well to be read but enjoyed WTOB so much I'm thinking of buying China Marine first.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 1/27/2012 1:58:14 PM >

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 2:27:25 PM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		It's interesting to read biographies of private soldiers. I'm currently reading "Co. Aytch" by Sam Watkins...

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 2:40:05 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Company Aytch is a great book.  I frequently quote from it both in my own writing and in giving programs to schools and civic groups.

Part of the book's charm - written by a Confederate private 20 years after the war - is that he makes some simple mistakes - not in what he saw, but mainly in things like when battles took place.  One that sticks in my mind is that he misdates the Battle of Lafayette - a minor action - by a year.  This does not detract from the book's importance or quality, but the reader does have to remain on his toes and realize the eyewitness did not have perfect recall.

I have not read With the Old Breed, but I've heard only good things about it.

The best work of eyewiteness history that I have ever read is We were Soldiers Once and Young.  I am not particularly interested in the Vietnam War, so my endorsement is from the heart.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 3:02:08 PM   
YankeeAirRat


Posts: 633
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Status: offline 		I have read China Marine. It is an interesting bit that talked about the opening of the China Civil War and the attempt of the US to regain some of its postions with regards to China as part of the immediate post-war years. Sledge was part of a marine company that attempted to return to Tientsin, China; if my faulty memory is right. He spent an additional 18 months in the Marines waiting to be demobilized. So he dealt with a winter there, watched as the Communists rose to power and had to deal with some of thier abuses towards to Americans, finally just dealing with being in the post-war period in Asia watching as old hatreds carry over into the post war period. It is just really short (like less then a hundred pages) so for me it was weekend read when I got it.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 3:10:11 PM   
LST Express


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From: Texas
Status: offline 		Thought We were soldiers and With the old Breed were outstanding but I've never heard of Company Aytch. Will keep it in mind for later reading.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 3:11:56 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I required Band of Brothers and With the Old Breed for my U.S. Military History Class at UNC in Greeley. Superlative books before they ever became HBO Series!


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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 4:06:27 PM   
Schanilec

 

Posts: 4040
Joined: 6/12/2010
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Status: offline 		Try 'Combat Officer' by Charles Walker - Following his campaigns with the 164th from Guadalcanal to the Philippines. Good book though I maybe biased because he 's from and lives in the area. He does not like West Pointer's nor was he very kind to the 1st Marine commanders.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 4:18:38 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Status: offline 		With the old breed is a fantastic read.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 4:39:56 PM   
dr.hal


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Status: offline 		Thanks, great feedback.... Hal

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 6:16:47 PM   
Schanilec

 

Posts: 4040
Joined: 6/12/2010
From: Grand Forks, ND
Status: offline 		I really liked 'With the Old Breed'. I'd like to get my hands on Leckies 'Helmet for My Pillow'.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 6:59:58 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schanilec
...nor was he very kind to the 1st Marine commanders.


I'm not an expert, but didn't Archie Vandergrift do pretty well at Guadalanal? I know he made some mistakes, primarily in exposing himself to danger and thus placing some ofh is units at elevated risk (1st Marine Raiders in particular). But the guy was on the front lines and doing a decent job of leading by example. Not many generals do that (not maligning them - it's not usually their place to be on the front lines, Vandergrift, Roosevelet and a few others excepted).

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 8:27:32 PM   
Flicker

 

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Status: offline 		After the war, Sledge graduated from Auburn then earned a PhD at Florida. He taught biology for almost 30 years at the University of Montevallo (formerly known as a quiet "milk and cookie" school) in his home state of Alabama.

I like reading first person accounts - "From Huntsville to Appomattox" edited by Stocker, is Adjutant Robert Cole's account of the 4th Alabama, CSA Army of Northern Virginia, which fought in almost every Eastern campaign.

Here's a vignette from action during the siege of Petersburg:

"...the assault was made, and a gloriously successful one it was to our arms. The men went yelling, running, and fighting through horses, wagons, cannons, and camp, troopers fleeing in every direction. It was a regular picnic for the boys. Major Robbins cried out, "Look boys, I've at last found a prize worth fighting for." Holding aloft a frying pan with a good long handle and waving it in lieu of his sword, he cheered and urged the men forward, and appeared to value his capture immensely, until a bullet from one of Kautz's repeating Spencer rifles went through the bottom of it, and it was doubtless a more severe wound than the brave and gallant old soldier received in the Wilderness".

In addition to Semmes "Memoirs of Service Afloat", I recommend "Wolf of the Deep" by Fox (Semmes and the CSS Alabama); "Sea Wolf of the Confederacy" by Shaw (Read and the CSS Florida); and "Lamson of the Gettysburg" edited by McPherson (first person USN brown water and blockade account - namesake of DD Lamson).

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 8:45:17 PM   
wolfclan

 

Posts: 44
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Status: offline 		Some of the fiction, based on real experience, can be powerful. THE SAND PEBBLES and FROM HERE TO ETERNITY come to mind, although it has been years since I've read either.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 9:06:54 PM   
Schanilec

 

Posts: 4040
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schanilec
...nor was he very kind to the 1st Marine commanders.


I'm not an expert, but didn't Archie Vandergrift do pretty well at Guadalanal? I know he made some mistakes, primarily in exposing himself to danger and thus placing some ofh is units at elevated risk (1st Marine Raiders in particular). But the guy was on the front lines and doing a decent job of leading by example. Not many generals do that (not maligning them - it's not usually their place to be on the front lines, Vandergrift, Roosevelet and a few others excepted).


Oh yes, Vandergrift did very well. He just limited praises to the 164th who also did very well. That is what Lt. Walker opined in his book.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/27/2012 9:43:41 PM   
tocaff


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From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		With The Old Breed was an excellent read.  Helmet For My Pillow was also a good one that gave a different view of life for the enlisted Marine in WWII.  I'm reading Band Of Brothers now and it too is very good.


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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/28/2012 4:51:26 AM   
jmalter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfclan

Some of the fiction, based on real experience, can be powerful. THE SAND PEBBLES and FROM HERE TO ETERNITY come to mind, although it has been years since I've read either.

+1 for Sand Pebbles, and the movie w/ Steve McQueen (& Candice Bergen!).

along these lines, try 'Once an Eagle' by Anton Myrer.

< Message edited by jmalter -- 1/28/2012 4:52:36 AM >

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/28/2012 5:18:48 AM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
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Status: offline 		Got to realize, when reading Helmut for My Pillow, that Robert Leicke was only ~27 years old when he wrote it... and think about how life was back in the late 50's... (my dad graduated high school that year).  To say what he said as honestly as he did - talking **** about officers, the times in the brig, "Souvenirs", weed-women, great debauche, da runs, etc.... wasn't exactly how the war was portrayed to the public at the time.



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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/28/2012 5:48:52 AM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
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Status: offline 		"One of the marines went methodically among the dead armed with a pair of pliers. He had observed that the Japanese have a penchant for gold fillings in their teeth, often for solid gold teeth.  He was looting their very mouths.  He would kick their mouths agape, peer into the mouth with all of the solicitude of a Park Avenue dentist - careful, always careful not to contaminate himself by touch - and yank out all that glittered.  He kept the gold teeth in an empty Bull Durham tobacco sack, which he wore around his neck in the manner of an amulet. "

- Helmut for My Pillow


< Message edited by AcePylut -- 1/28/2012 5:49:13 AM >

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/28/2012 11:11:21 AM   
tocaff


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Status: offline 		When I was growing up (50s) the US soldiers were portrayed differently than other countries, on a higher plane.  We know that this was sheer nonsense and that there are good and bad everywhere.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/28/2012 4:45:10 PM   
Knyvet


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Status: offline 		Pulling the teeth for gold may reflect post-combat catharsis more than greed especially considering the soldier kept the teeth with the gold instead of just breaking up the teeth after extraction and taking the gold.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/28/2012 5:16:14 PM   
AcePylut


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Status: offline 		Either way - such acts by US soldiers were not portrayed in 1950's media.  

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/29/2012 1:11:26 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
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Status: offline 		I wound up buying China Marine, Islands of the Damned, and Guadalcanal Diary (I enjoy reading about the 'canal and haven't read it yet) to surpass the $25 free shipping threshold on Amazon.  Speaking of Helmet for My Pillow, awhile back I bought the title but have misplaced it somewhere, it'll turn up.   

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/29/2012 10:36:23 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
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Status: offline 		'Goodbye, Darkness' by Wm. Manchester is a good memoir, too.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/30/2012 2:16:39 AM   
Knavey

 

Posts: 3052
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Status: offline 		I met a China Marine once...on an Honor Flight trip to Washington DC to visit the WW2 memorial. The first thing I noticed was the China Marine wording on his hat. The next thing I noticed was Bataan POW on the other side of the hat. Spoke with him for a few minutes. Amazing man...and always had a smile on the whole trip. Wish I would have gotten to speak with him longer.

As for the Old Breed...I got the book for Christmas. Its on my list of things to read but haven't gotten to it yet.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/30/2012 8:27:18 AM   
jmalter

 

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Status: offline 		a nice section in WtOB - after a battle, Sledge is ready to go pull some gold teeth for himself. But a corpsman tells him, "No, there could be germs," & Sledge cools down. Later, he realizes that the corpsman helped preserve his humanity, not by appealing to his better nature (which wouldn't have worked in that post-combat situation), but by scaring him away from doing something that he might've had trouble living with, later on in life.

reading his memoir, you get the sense that Sledge didn't look down on his comrades who took grisly trophies, but was grateful that he was dissuaded from doing so.

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RE: With the Old Breed - 1/30/2012 12:38:48 PM   
timtom


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From: Aarhus, Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I just finished With the Old Breed by E.B.Sledge . What a great read! I thoroughly enjoyed every bit of it. I'm wondering if any who have read both would like to share their thoughts on China Marine by Sledge. I have many books in the well to be read but enjoyed WTOB so much I'm thinking of buying China Marine first.


According to himself, Prof. Sledge originally wrote Old Breed for private consumption only. I would imagine the subsequent editor omitted what later became China Marine because it's - frankly - a rather boring "I went to China and nothing happened" over a 150 pages. Hence the arupt ending of Old Breed. Easily the most interesting part is his description of returning home to 'bama and the ignorance and apathy he encountered there. The finish is a "Deer Hunter" scene which is interesting on a number of levels. I would think that OUP only published China Marine on the back of Old Breeds success - which predates that series mind.

In a way it's a shame that (if) "China Marine" was cut off of "Old Breed", 'cos if you read them in continuum the flat, rather dull description of Sledge's time in China becomes a numbness coming right on the back of his haunting, horrible description of infantry combat on Okinawa. Paul Fussell's memoirs comes to mind, the second part of which describes his life post-war and are rather dull really - and perhaps that's the point.

In any case it's worth pointing out that the great majority of WWII memoirs come to an end with the end of combat, and, IMO that's a shame 'cos I think that this would only have been the end of the beginning for many of these people, and by comparison we don't really have a lot testamony about the experience for returning to "normality" post-combat in the second half of the '40's.

btw, Stud Terkels 1980's (?) interviews with Sledge should be out there somewhere on the interweb.





< Message edited by timtom -- 1/30/2012 12:40:36 PM >

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RE: With the Old Breed - 2/7/2012 11:03:42 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
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quote:

ORIGINAL: timtom

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I just finished With the Old Breed by E.B.Sledge . What a great read! I thoroughly enjoyed every bit of it. I'm wondering if any who have read both would like to share their thoughts on China Marine by Sledge. I have many books in the well to be read but enjoyed WTOB so much I'm thinking of buying China Marine first.


According to himself, Prof. Sledge originally wrote Old Breed for private consumption only. I would imagine the subsequent editor omitted what later became China Marine because it's - frankly - a rather boring "I went to China and nothing happened" over a 150 pages. Hence the arupt ending of Old Breed. Easily the most interesting part is his description of returning home to 'bama and the ignorance and apathy he encountered there. The finish is a "Deer Hunter" scene which is interesting on a number of levels. I would think that OUP only published China Marine on the back of Old Breeds success - which predates that series mind.

In a way it's a shame that (if) "China Marine" was cut off of "Old Breed", 'cos if you read them in continuum the flat, rather dull description of Sledge's time in China becomes a numbness coming right on the back of his haunting, horrible description of infantry combat on Okinawa. Paul Fussell's memoirs comes to mind, the second part of which describes his life post-war and are rather dull really - and perhaps that's the point.

In any case it's worth pointing out that the great majority of WWII memoirs come to an end with the end of combat, and, IMO that's a shame 'cos I think that this would only have been the end of the beginning for many of these people, and by comparison we don't really have a lot testamony about the experience for returning to "normality" post-combat in the second half of the '40's.

btw, Stud Terkels 1980's (?) interviews with Sledge should be out there somewhere on the interweb.






Good description TimTom, I finished it off a few days ago and I see it more as the few ending chapters to WtOB as well.. That said, I still enjoyed the reading and have no regrets on the purchase..

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 2/7/2012 11:05:48 PM >

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