Is there any counter to Allied night bombing??

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Is there any counter to Allied night bombing??

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Is there any counter to Allied night bombing??

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 1:16:22 PM

Miller

Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline

My night CAP does nothing (even 100 plus a/c). The combat a2a replay lasts a millisecond, I fail to shoot down anything whilst usually losing 2 or 3 fighters to his bombers, then his bombers unload, maybe destroying a few more a/c on the ground. Even utter crap like the Blenheim and Wellington get through without a scratch.

I cannot counter this by attacking his bomber airfields during the day, too many of them and most are out of the range of the only competitive escort (Tojo) I possess.

Post #: 1

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 1:28:14 PM

Elladan

Posts: 300
Joined: 8/18/2005
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline

Why don't you night bomb their bases yourself?

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 2

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 1:36:10 PM

Miller

Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Why don't you night bomb their bases yourself?

My bombers are absolutely useless in this role. His are not much better, but he can mass them as he has multiple bases to fly from whereas I have only 1 or 2.

I am more miffed at the fact that his bombers can shoot down my fighters, even at night, whereas my fighters do nothing. Its as if they have been painted fluorescent green with targets on them and the pilots have been told to fly alongside the bombers and stay there until they are shot down......

(in reply to Elladan)

Post #: 3

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 1:47:37 PM

Elladan

Posts: 300
Joined: 8/18/2005
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline

They are definitely not up to the task, agreed, but then, even if they don't down any bombers they still disrupt them and decrease the bombing accuracy. It would be much worse if you let them bomb unopposed.
As to the airfields, you're sure you cannot find more than 1-2 bases for your bombers? If so, perhaps there is a better frontline somewhere around you could use to improve your defense? Hard to say more without details of the situation.
One more thing, recon is crucial, do you recon heavily before bombing?

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 4

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 1:56:08 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Why don't you night bomb their bases yourself?

My bombers are absolutely useless in this role. His are not much better, but he can mass them as he has multiple bases to fly from whereas I have only 1 or 2.

I am more miffed at the fact that his bombers can shoot down my fighters, even at night, whereas my fighters do nothing. Its as if they have been painted fluorescent green with targets on them and the pilots have been told to fly alongside the bombers and stay there until they are shot down......

try to ban it with a house rule. On the other side, you'll see 100 times more torpedo attacks by the Japanese than real life too and while those didn't happen anywhere near the numbers in the game, the Allied bombed at night, at least late war and burnt Japan.

_____________________________

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 5

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 2:01:21 PM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

I think a lot of players HR it as night bombing is modelled here better than could be expected. These HR's include moon light settings above 85% iirc & alt settings too. AAA and Cap trap might help too.

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to Elladan)

Post #: 6

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 2:45:32 PM

Miller

Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline

We have a HR that there must be at least 50% moonlight and a max of one sqd per airbase on night attack, which is fair enough. It just seems to be a case of having to choose either fly night CAP and have 3 shot down in the air and 3 destroyed on the ground, or dont fly it and have 6 a/c destroyed on the ground

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 7

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 2:59:01 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline

Pilots in Nicks with high exp. 80+ perform somewhat better then your standard squadrons. Thats said they also not realy a solution, just a bit better.

_____________________________

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 8

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 3:07:12 PM

Miller

Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

Pilots in Nicks with high exp. 80+ perform somewhat better then your standard squadrons. Thats said they also not realy a solution, just a bit better.

I produced these solely for night fighting and they perform no better than other fighters. Unfortunately I dont have many 80+ exp pilots left as it is June 43........

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)

Post #: 9

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 3:39:31 PM

Dan Nichols

Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
Status: offline

IMO, any house rule for night bombing should have an escalation so that there are serious restrictions in 1942 and mostly none in 1945.

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 10

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 3:41:37 PM

CT Grognard

Posts: 694
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline

Agreed, Allied night bombing became effective in 1944 because of air-to-ground mapping radars.

(in reply to Dan Nichols)

Post #: 11

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 4:22:24 PM

SuluSea

Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline

Part of the issue with night bombing is the daytime DL's are used by night bombing attacks. If the possibility existed where that could be toned down by a good amount it would go a long way in putting this issue to rest.

_____________________________

"There�s no such thing as a bitter person who keeps the bitterness to himself.� ~ Erwin Lutzer

(in reply to CT Grognard)

Post #: 12

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 4:36:15 PM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

The beta introduced night combat changes.

Basically there is no point in using fighters on night CAP which lack radar. Use only radar equipped fighters for night CAP.

Alfred

(in reply to SuluSea)

Post #: 13

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 5:16:37 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Why don't you night bomb their bases yourself?

My bombers are absolutely useless in this role. His are not much better, but he can mass them as he has multiple bases to fly from whereas I have only 1 or 2.

I am more miffed at the fact that his bombers can shoot down my fighters, even at night, whereas my fighters do nothing. Its as if they have been painted fluorescent green with targets on them and the pilots have been told to fly alongside the bombers and stay there until they are shot down......

try to ban it with a house rule. On the other side, you'll see 100 times more torpedo attacks by the Japanese than real life too and while those didn't happen anywhere near the numbers in the game, the Allied bombed at night, at least late war and burnt Japan.

We have limited it to one unit per theater per night. So no more than four attack or so per day. Works fine and brings it under control. It is more of a nuisance. I think we put a limit on units doing night torpedo attacks but can't remember. Perhaps one or two designated units to reflect the extra training needed.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 14

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 5:21:15 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

Agreed, Allied night bombing became effective in 1944 because of air-to-ground mapping radars.

Not really. It became effective when the decision was made to use saturation firebombing of large city targets over Japan. Air mapping radar was a leap forward but still very new.

Daylight raids continued to be the norm for the Americans in Europe and the Brits use saturation bombing at night.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to CT Grognard)

Post #: 15

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 6:08:52 PM

Dili

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Basically there is no point in using fighters on night CAP which lack radar. Use only radar equipped fighters for night CAP.

The British and Italians had some light success in moonlights. Also the British had integrated system with searchlights on ground and it worked sometimes.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 16

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 6:54:48 PM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

really house rules to not allow 24 hour a day attacks against hte jap bases.. in late 42 through late 43, ehen bases came within range of bombers they lost effectivity.. I remember seeing some 25 footage, awesome seeing a 75 mm cannot tearing up ground targets... I object to crying foul that I hear..
Really? day and night bombing happened, we can argue over allot fo minuetee, but this?
Sorry I do not see the problem.. unless its the other way where I cannot park dead groups on the side of the tarmac, send there pilots to rear for coffee and donuts.. in real life dead
"on the ground groups" would de activate... cannot do that in my game without lossing the planes and pilots of groups.. I know.. jump through hoop A to get to square b rational.. I can " disband" or " transfer or load on ship or ..withdraw.. non of which is me just parking the planes on the side and focusing the ground assetss on the remaining active groups...
what becomes of my planes in my fantasy" real world" ? The sit, are cannabalized for parts or a wave of new planes arrives by ship and the group reactivates in place with fresh pilots .. refreshed from ll the donut eating ..
My point is the caps on base size are anti US vs what I see recorded in history...

ok
rant over ...
where where we.. ok .. what to do about Allied night bombing.. one think my oponenet did was use some bombbers as anti air platforms at night.. odd and it worked! lol

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 17

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 7:33:16 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

In my game with Chez, I had concerns about night bombing due to reports here in the forum. When he started some night bombing attacks, I simply told him that if he did 'em, I'd do 'em, but that if he didn't do 'em, I wouldn't do 'em. He's doing 'em now and then, so one of these days I will pay him back with interest.

(in reply to freeboy)

Post #: 18

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 7:49:58 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Why don't you night bomb their bases yourself?

My bombers are absolutely useless in this role. His are not much better, but he can mass them as he has multiple bases to fly from whereas I have only 1 or 2.

I am more miffed at the fact that his bombers can shoot down my fighters, even at night, whereas my fighters do nothing. Its as if they have been painted fluorescent green with targets on them and the pilots have been told to fly alongside the bombers and stay there until they are shot down......

try to ban it with a house rule. On the other side, you'll see 100 times more torpedo attacks by the Japanese than real life too and while those didn't happen anywhere near the numbers in the game, the Allied bombed at night, at least late war and burnt Japan.

We have limited it to one unit per theater per night. So no more than four attack or so per day. Works fine and brings it under control. It is more of a nuisance. I think we put a limit on units doing night torpedo attacks but can't remember. Perhaps one or two designated units to reflect the extra training needed.

We haven't limited it per se in my game, but this is the way it's been working out. A few squadrons in a few theatres results in a few aircraft destroyed nightly on the tarmac. An annoyance, but nothing more-which is fine for gameplay.

I've reciprocated a few times in larger numbers, but the results don't appear worth the bother.

_____________________________

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 19

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 7:50:19 PM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

Chez has been occaisionally night bombing my main airfield at Suva, but I have my only squadron of P70s there so there has been no damage with four Betties lost so far. I've got a squadron of PV-1Ns training up to add to my defenses soon (we are in late July '43).

I have been occasionally night bombing the oilfields and refineries in Burma with the RAF night bombers. This has been done with a total of five Wellington or Liberator squadrons. If the artwork shows a black belly on the aircraft, it is a night bomber in my book.

Once I get the B29s within range of serious industry I might use them for night bombing. Then again, I might not.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 20

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 8:00:13 PM

Miller

Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In my game with Chez, I had concerns about night bombing due to reports here in the forum.� When he started some night bombing attacks, I simply told him that if he did 'em, I'd do 'em, but that if he didn't do 'em, I wouldn't do 'em.� He's doing 'em now and then, so one of these days I will pay him back with interest.

Our game went to mid 45 and I don't think either of us did a single night attack

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 21

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 8:16:53 PM

kfsgo

Posts: 446
Joined: 9/16/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I have been occasionally night bombing the oilfields and refineries in Burma with the RAF night bombers. This has been done with a total of five Wellington or Liberator squadrons. If the artwork shows a black belly on the aircraft, it is a night bomber in my book.

Once I get the B29s within range of serious industry I might use them for night bombing. Then again, I might not.

Yep - the RAF squadrons that arrive with Wellington or early Liberator (99, 159, 160, 215 Sqns) through to end 1943 were used more or less exclusively for night attacks from India into Burma, Thailand etc, along with naval search, mining and recon duties. Targets were generally aimed at army, logistical or industrial infrastructure (at least a couple of them have their operational records online) rather than airfields, but since we can't actually bomb railyards I'd say use in that role is absolutely appropriate - and aircraft replacement rate in those types is not high enough to really permit daylight operations against even minimal opposition, hence the grumbling and fussing when people try to use them in that way and inevitably get them all shot down...

I think if there's one big problem as far as night bombing it's in regards to weather - a clear sky and a bit of moonlight will permit attacks on point targets to some degree, even if accuracy isn't necessarily great - but trying to bomb through cloud should be a complete waste of time until introduction of high-capability airborne radar, and only area bombing at that. Of course, since we just have "cloud" rather than "X% cloud at Y altitude", that's not really a solvable problem.

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 22

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 8:42:26 PM

dr.hal

Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline

Alfred, I've got the beta going in my game (with Paul) and the night fighters (without radar as it is early '42) do some damage occasionally, however their real benefit is to disrupt the attack's effectiveness (negative die roll?). My anecdotal evidence is that if a raid comes in and I don't have anyone aloft the results are usually less than desirable but if I have a few planes up there, the results are usually nil.. or close to it (which is much more to my liking). But I could be simply seeing what I want to see in the limited data that I have. So much for my scientific method. Hal

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 23

RE: Is there any counter to Allied night bombing?? - 1/30/2012 10:07:09 PM

zuluhour