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Ki-100 - 11/15/2002 2:19:39 AM   
corbulo

 

Posts: 213
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: rigel 5
Status: offline 		Suggest adding this plane as well. In Operation Iceburg 10 of these shot down 14 Hellcats without a loss. By far the best plane available to the Imperial Japanese Army. It had a radial engine on a Tony
(Hien) frame(ki-61). To my knowledge it was still known to japanese as the HIEN.

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Post #: 1
Re: Ki-100 - 11/15/2002 4:03:36 AM   
angus

 

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/8/2002
From: Brussels
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by corbulo
[B]Suggest adding this plane as well. In Operation Iceburg 10 of these shot down 14 Hellcats without a loss. By far the best plane available to the Imperial Japanese Army. It had a radial engine on a Tony (Hien) frame(ki-61). To my knowledge it was still known to japanese as the HIEN. [/B][/QUOTE]

My apologies if this seems snippy but WTF ?

There weren't any Ki-100s the South Pacific in 1942-1943 so why should they be added ? Hell, there weren't any Ki-100s in 1942-1943 period. It's [B]not[/B] a bug-fix.

UV is a game covering a specific period of time and a specific theatre. That's what it says on the box and that's what you get. And I for one am perfectly happy with that. It's an excellent game and well worth what I paid for it unlike around 95% of all games I've bought in the last 25 years or so.

If you want add-ons I'd suggest you ask Matrix to consider designing and [B]selling[/B] add-ons, but expecting them as freebies seems a bit much. Same for the editor gripes. If you want Matrix to provide a snappy editor it seems only fair that they'd expect you to pay for it. SSG didn't give the Carriers at War editor away for nothing. If you want Matrix to turn UV into something completely different that's not the sort of thing you can expect for free. Alternatively you can always RTFB. That way [I]you[/I] can change anything [I]you[/I] like.

It's unreasonable to expect Matrix to support player demands for mods indefinitely. Sooner or later it's time to move on to the Next Big Thing. I don't want so see WitP delayed by even a day because useless chrome is being added to UV. YMMV but commercial reality says that I'm right.

Angus

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 2
das stimmt - 11/15/2002 5:21:10 AM   
corbulo

 

Posts: 213
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: rigel 5
Status: offline 		Angus,
I agree with you. God forbid any programmer at 2X3 Matrix is working on UV when he could be progamming WITP. I was happy with the game from the beginning. I belive at 2.0 it is perfect and should be left alone. In a way, suggesting people use the editor to create scenarios is better than having enless complaints about the game play. A lot of the complaints, mine included, are basically, "I am losing, there must be something wrong with this game". I have yet to win a game at UV, but I love playing. (actually, one person bailed on me, so that counts as a win in my book).

_____________________________

virtute omne regatur

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Post #: 3
- 11/15/2002 5:23:55 AM   
McDuck

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/1/2002
Status: offline 		Hi all , there seems to be a number of aircraft for both sides listed in the databases that would not have appeared in the timeframe of UV . I'm assuming that this database will be the basis for what will be used in WiTP and that's why those other aircraft are there . That being said there are a couple of aircraft for the Japanese that seem to be missing - N1K2 Shidenkai , J2M Raiden and the Ki-100 Goshiki-Sen . Could be the N1K2 was rolled in with the N1K1 and that represents that model of aircraft . As for the other two , perhaps they didn't make into production in numbers high enough to be included . Some sources indicate that only 118 Ki-100's were produced by the end of the war in spite of plans for 200 a mnoth . Or more likely by the time WiTP hits the shelves we'll see an expanded database that will have all of the aircraft that saw combat in sufficient numbers included . ( at least one squadron ? ) Wait and see i guess ! adios ... HMcS

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 4
- 11/15/2002 8:52:32 PM   
Von_Frag

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 5/7/2002
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by McDuck
[B]Hi all , there seems to be a number of aircraft for both sides listed in the databases that would not have appeared in the timeframe of UV . I'm assuming that this database will be the basis for what will be used in WiTP and that's why those other aircraft are there . That being said there are a couple of aircraft for the Japanese that seem to be missing - N1K2 Shidenkai , J2M Raiden and the Ki-100 Goshiki-Sen . Could be the N1K2 was rolled in with the N1K1 and that represents that model of aircraft . As for the other two , perhaps they didn't make into production in numbers high enough to be included . Some sources indicate that only 118 Ki-100's were produced by the end of the war in spite of plans for 200 a mnoth . Or more likely by the time WiTP hits the shelves we'll see an expanded database that will have all of the aircraft that saw combat in sufficient numbers included . ( at least one squadron ? ) Wait and see i guess ! adios ... HMcS [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeh there were very few "new build" Ki-100's. There were however a couple of hundred Ki-61 airframes sitting around waiting for engines after the plant making the Kawasaki Ha-140 inline was toasted. Thats when they were mated with the radial, the result being so spectacular that production of the Ki-100 was authorized.

Von Frag

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 5
- 11/15/2002 9:49:51 PM   
zed

 

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/20/2002
Status: offline 		I used not to think of the Japanese as innovators or make-do engineers. After reading about WW2 they were in fact very good on improvising, quite unlike the Germans.

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Post #: 6
- 11/16/2002 2:47:39 AM   
Von_Frag

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 5/7/2002
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by zed
[B]I used not to think of the Japanese as innovators or make-do engineers. After reading about WW2 they were in fact very good on improvising, quite unlike the Germans. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, they could be quite creative when it was needed. After Rabaul was bypassed and ceased to be a factor, the ground crews there spliced a Zero's fuselage section onto a surviving Zero making a 2 seat recon Zero which was used. It is now hanging in a museum, NASM? I think.

Von Frag

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 7
- 11/16/2002 3:44:25 AM   
McDuck

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/1/2002
Status: offline 		Hi All , Von Frag is bang on . Far more Ki-100's were produced using converted Ki-61 airframes than new airframes . That would put the total closer to 400 that were available for combat . From when the orders were issued in Nov 44 the Japanese were able to get a prototype airborne by early Feb 45 . What helped in no small part is that they had an FW-190 there to study how the germans had mounted a bulky radial in a narrow airframe . ( all info off of the net - just do a yahoo search with goshiki-sen ) An interesting point to ponder - what if in WiTP the B-29's don't destroy the factory producing the inline engine destined for the Ki-61's . The IJN put a radial in the D4Y2 to get the D4Y3 in 43 as the inline was so troublesome . Would they have done that same thing with the Ki-61 if that decision had not been forced upon them ? Lots of possible answers to that one .
So , with ~ 400 airframes produced the Ki-100 should be included in WiTP if the gameplay develops along historical lines . But if the Japanese are successful in holding off the devastation wrought by US bombers - who knows . Then you might have a case for the A7M2 Reppu , J7W1 , J8M1 , Ki-83 and Kikka ! Plus others .
adios ... HMcS

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 8
- 11/16/2002 4:40:48 AM   
Wilhammer

 

Posts: 449
Joined: 5/24/2002
From: Out in the Sticks of Rockingham County, North Caro
Status: offline 		Will they have the MIKE and BESSIE? :)

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 9
- 11/16/2002 5:11:15 AM   
angus

 

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/8/2002
From: Brussels
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wilhammer
[B]Will they have the MIKE and BESSIE? :) [/B][/QUOTE]

So do you have Mikesh's codename book as well ? Then there's Doc, Fred, Irene, Janice, Jerry, Ruth, Trixie and Trudy.

I reckon Janice and Fred are the two to have. The Fred was probably the best fighter in the world at the start of 1942 and the Janice was a lot tougher than a Betty or a Helen. And faster and better armed and carried a heavier warload. Not that the Fred was useless in that last respect. Some -Fs could carry nearly 4000lb of bombs and rockets.

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 10
- 11/18/2002 8:42:34 PM   
Wilhammer

 

Posts: 449
Joined: 5/24/2002
From: Out in the Sticks of Rockingham County, North Caro
Status: offline 		Seriously, the KI-100 certainly should be in WiTP, as it was out in many numbers, hundreds, and the Americans made a point of mentioing it a s a real threat many times.

It was the best single-engined B-29 interceptor, and it was difficult to defeat in combat.


---------------------------

I have the codenames from some French fella's book published in the US by the NIP, called "Japanese Aircraft of The Pacific War, 1941-1945".

For those not having it, MIKE is the Bf-109E (the Japanese tested this but did not adopt it, but the KI-61 HIEN was enspired by it and used the same engine, Japanese manufacture) and the BESSIE was the JU-88, though it does not seem they ever had one.

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 11
- 11/18/2002 9:48:14 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]It was the best single-engined B-29 interceptor[/QUOTE]

Correct. It was the best of a rum lot.

[QUOTE]and it was difficult to defeat in combat.[/QUOTE]

Far less difficult than any 1st line USAAF fighter of 1944-45 and less difficult than the F4U. It was comparable in performace to the F6F, when it worked at all.

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 12
- 11/19/2002 1:48:05 AM   
Howard Mitchell


Posts: 449
Joined: 6/3/2002
From: Blighty
Status: offline 		That’s a bit harsh. One of the main plus points of the Ki-100 was that its engine was reliable, so it did work well and often. Its performance was at least equivalent to a Hellcats, and the Hellcat was very much in the 1st line even at the end of the war.

But I must admit I am at a loss to see how it has achieved its reputation as a near wonder weapon. Its wing loading was about the same as the Ki-84s but its power loading worse. Its armament was barely adequate for the task of intercepting B-29s. I think it is because of the halo effect produced by several famous aces flying it who were able to use its capabilities to advantage at a time when the vast majority of Japanese pilots were very poor, and air combat has always been more about men than machines.

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 13
- 11/19/2002 2:19:12 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wilhammer
[B]Will they have the MIKE and BESSIE? :) [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm anxious to see the Fred, Ethel, Ricky, and Lucy, myself.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 14
- 11/19/2002 2:32:30 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Oh, I agree that it was comparable to the F6F. The problem was that the higher performance Japanese radials also had their share of teething problems and were a maintenance nightmare. Although the F6F was the default 1st line USN CV fighter, I regard it as a second class plane in comparison with the F4U, P51, and P47N. I think these types, had they encountered Ki-100s in concentrations, would have put paid to the notion of truly competitive late-war Japanese a/c.

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 15
- 11/19/2002 10:20:51 PM   
zed

 

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/20/2002
Status: offline 		VADM Ugaki put his best pilots in the KI-100 for the defense of Okinawa. My understanding is that they were based on Kyushu, but they may have been based at Okinawa. In any event, they did knock down some F6Fs from TF58.

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 16
- 11/20/2002 4:45:24 AM   
CynicAl


Posts: 327
Joined: 7/27/2001
From: Brave New World
Status: offline 		So how did a Navy officer get his hands on an Army fighter?

Altitude is important. The Ki-100 apparently was competitive with the P-51D at low to medium altitude, but the Mustang was much better above 26,000 feet. The same probably applies to the P-47N, which like the P-51 got best results up high. The F4U, on the other hand, was at its best down low - a Navy comparative evaluation in 1943-44 found it was actually superior to the P-51 up to (IIRC) about 15,000 feet; above that height the P-51 pulled even, then pulled ahead. So the F4U-1 may actually have had a performance edge across the board vs the Ki-100, or may have a "danger zone" from about 15k to 26k. The F4U-4, which first went into action at Okinawa, almost certainly did outperform the Ki-100 at all heights.

_____________________________

Some days you're the windshield.
Some days you're the bug.

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 17
- 11/20/2002 7:54:38 PM   
zed

 

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/20/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by CynicAl
[B]So how did a Navy officer get his hands on an Army fighter?
[/B][/QUOTE]


I actually am not sure. I put two facts together:
a) Ugaki was in command of air defense of Okinawa
b) 14 F6Fs were destroyed by ki-100s in Carrier Force strike against Okinawa.

Kyushu would have been a long way to come to CAP Okinawa, so maybe they were stationed on Okinawa.

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 18
- 11/21/2002 3:12:16 AM   
Howard Mitchell


Posts: 449
Joined: 6/3/2002
From: Blighty
Status: offline 		I found this bit in ‘Japanese Army Air Force Aces 1937-45’ by Henry Sakaida., concerning Ki-100s and Hellcats:

“The last major combat between the JAAF and the Americans occurred on 25 July 1945 when 18 Ki-100s of the 244th Sentai encountered 10 F6F-5 Hellcats of VF-31over Yokaichai Airfield on an early-morning raid. In a fierce dogfight, Capt Tsutae Obara (eight kills) collided with Ens Edwin White and both were killed. Soon after WO Shin Ikuta and Ens Herbert Law were downed, the former dying in the subsequent crash, but Law surviving to return to America from a PoW camp after the war. The 244th claimed 12 Hellcats destroyed for the loss of two pilots, whilst VF-31 counter-claimed with eight kills and three probables for the loss of two”.

Over-claiming is always rife in air combat, as for some reason pilots seem more concerned with staying alive and defeating the enemy rather than accurately recording events for posterity.

Other sections of the book mention that VF-31were flying from the Belleau Wood and that after the vicious hangar-top height the commander of the 244th, Major Teruhiko Kobayashi, was going to be court-martialled as he had had instructions to stay on the ground and await incoming bombers. However, such was the newspaper publicity surrounding the ‘rout’ that the Emperor hear of his actions and spoke favourably of them, after which any talk of a court-martial was quickly dropped!

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 19
- 11/22/2002 9:26:48 PM   
corbulo

 

Posts: 213
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: rigel 5
Status: offline 		Howard Mitchell,
I have the same book but could not find the page. Could you give me the page number? Also, I have
[B]Fighting Aircraft of WW2[/B] by Bill Gunston. Page 281 says:
"Despite the sudden lash-up(ha-112 radial with ki-61-II frame)
conversion the result was a staggeringly fine figher, easily the best ever produced in Japan. With desperate haste this conversion went into production as the Ki-100. One of the first Ki-100 units destroyed 14 Hellcats without loss to themselves in their first major battle over Okinawa and this easily flown and serviced machine fought supremely well against b-29s and Allied fighters to the end."

-I have been looking for something in
[B]Japanese Army Air Force Aces 1937-1945[/B] to corroborate the statement about Okinawa but could not find any reference to the battle. Both [B]Pacific War[/B] by Costello and [B]War in the Pacific [/B] by Gailey do mention that Mitscher on his raid against Kyushu in March 19, 1945 lost planes. Still looking for any more references in [B]Japanese Army Air Forces Aces 1937-1945[/B] to tell me exactly what happened March 19, 1945 on Kyushu when F6Fs met Ki-100s.

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virtute omne regatur

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Post #: 20
- 11/22/2002 11:20:14 PM   
Howard Mitchell


Posts: 449
Joined: 6/3/2002
From: Blighty
Status: offline 		Hi Corbulo.

Page 73 for the bit I typed in, paragraphs 2 and 3, page75 paragraphs 2 and 3 again for the bits I paraphrased. From some of the conversations I have had with people at netwings.org (a MS Combat Flight Simulator 2 site) I believe that the UK edition may be different from others. Not sure what you have out there on Rigel 5!

One of the Netwings forums had an excellent debate over the relative merits of the F8F Bearcat compared to the Ki-100 a few months back, with contributions from some very knowledgeable people. The consensus seemed to be that the Ki-100 was a brilliant fighter by 1943 standards, but by 1945 it was simply not up to the standards set elsewhere. After some careful thought I tend to agree with this - its quoted top speed of around 360 mph would have been considered very low in the European theatre of operations by then. Its advantages were that it was close enough in performance to Allied aircraft to give an experienced pilot a good chance of victory, and easy enough to handle to give an inexperienced pilot at least a chance of surviving.

I have heard of the Okinawa incident you mention, but never in any reliable, first hand accounts, and I’m sure I have heard that it is disputed. Its probably one of those stories that gets picked up and repeated without being verified. Given the over-claiming mentioned in my last post I can quite believe that the Japanese thought they had shot down 14 Hellcats, but until I can find out more details I doubt that they actually did. Certainly if half a squadron of Hellcats had been dispatched in such a dramatic fashion in a single action I’m sure it would be remarked upon in many other sources (especially American ones!) Anyone out there know any more?

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 21
todo que lo sepa - 11/23/2002 10:06:09 PM   
corbulo

 

Posts: 213
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: rigel 5
Status: offline 		Thanks for the page references which I read. We have the same edition. I read backwards from there but no reference to Mitschers' TF 58 attack on Okinawa, March 19th. Gailey says, page 424,
[B]The War in the Pacific[/B]
"Prior to the invasion, Admiral Mitscher led his powerful TF 58 northward to attack the many airfields and installations on Kyushu. For two days, beginning on 19 March, hangars, barracks, airfields, and targets os opportunity wer hit. Seventeen ships, including the superbattleship [I]Yamato[/I] were also damaged. The Japanese committed a large number of planes to defend the island with little effect".

On April 2nd the Japanese launched another attack against the Okinawa landing force. Ki-100s may have been part of the escorts.

_____________________________

virtute omne regatur

(in reply to corbulo)
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