Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: ComradeP

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One of the biggest turnoffs for me in this game has been the fact that it is either WW1 style or one side or the other gets the track shoes on and both armies spend far more time running than fighting.

But...that's more or less the war on the Eastern Front as it was historically too. Neither the Soviets nor the Germans regained the initiative prior to the enemy exhausting itself during the war, and there were long periods where very little happened on large sectors of the frontline, primarily in the north. If anything, the front wide attacks in WitE each turn are ahistorical, but improvements to static mode have made those more rare for the Axis, although the Soviets can still launch them.

An Eastern Front game that allows both sides to attack, without stalemates, would not be a true Eastern Front game.

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ORIGINAL: Michael T

There is no doubt in my mind that the WITE devs are being overly influenced by Soviet Fanboy Bullies. It seems there are quite a few pro Soviet testers and nil pro German testers. This is a problem as I see it. There needs to be a balance. Personally I do not take any notice of testers who are biased at all. I draw my own unbiased conclusions about WITE, or take note from unbiased testers. I pretty much disregard everything Flaviusx writes because the guy is so obviously biased it’s not funny.

The constant nerfing of the Axis side is making the chances of an Axis victory less and less. It seems that the powers to be just can't stomach the thought of Germany winning the war in 1941/42. They are not even happy that the Russians should win by May 1945, so hey just add another 5 months to the war.

The only thing that was needed was the March madness tweak. The rest is just *pandering* to the Soviet Fanboy Bullies.

As a guy who enjoys playing both sides I think that a point is going to be reached soon (if the constant Axis nerfing is continued) where it will no longer be a possibility for Germany to win the game in 1941/42. It will then become a much less interesting game and it will be harder to find people willing to play German. There needs to be a balance struck between realism and the fun factor. A game that assigns the German no chance of victory in 1941/42 is not fun. And that’s where the game is being pushed. I fully expect the next nerf will be the Lvov pocket. That might just be the final straw for me in playing German anymore, unless there are some big changes made that force the Russians in to some of the unsuccessful counter attacks that were ordered by Stalin. Quid pro quo.

Before I get stomped on by the rhetoric of the Soviet Fanboy Bullies, and for the benefit of other more reasonable minds I am neither an Axis or Soviet fanboy.

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ORIGINAL: wadortch

I am not interested in investing hundreds of hours playing a GAME well as Axis the Soviets always win sir.

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ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
At any rate, I'm going to play it out and see how it works out. I have some ideas on how to manage the change. It's going to be a real pain in the neck, but it's not a game killer imo, if you're willing to accept that perfect C&C just isn't going to happen all the time.

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ORIGINAL: Pelton

During march most germans pocket 20 to 30 units on average. which is 325ish AP points. Thats your math not mine.

This will require the Russian player to spend the next 6ish turn buying back units. But before then its clear weather and I can pocket 10 to 15 more again keeping the size of the russian machine in check and the ap's low as per your email

Plus the german player can push past the forts.

now we have your nerf bat patch 1.06

None of this is possible now.

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ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

76mm, I am truly sorry for the pain the patch is inflicting on your game and others like it. The command change was the one item we knew was going to be very painful to current players because they had no time to adjust to it (unlike a new game, or one still in 1941). For cases like this we recommend that you consider keeping two copies of WitE on your system. The older version can be used to finish out the current game, while the newer version could be used for new games. Studying the later war scenarios it became obvious we missed a major factor with the size of the Soviet Armies, and we wanted to make the adjustment now while we were also fixing Stavka and making the other changes. All in all we think the patch is fairly balanced, but it will tend to net out as a hit to the Germans early, and then net out hitting the Soviets later on. We just didn't see a way of avoiding this issue. Fewer, large Soviet armies run only by the best Soviet leaders just wasn't right. We are at the point where we don't want to be making a lot of rule changes going forward, but will try to keep an eye on how the game is doing and try to make more subtle corrections as needed. Having worked on the Don to the Danube scenarios, we've had a better view of some of the later war issues and we think the biggest changes are behind us.

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Pelton

Its clear that patch has

Flaviusx said"You alrdy see that 1942 will be a stalemate, The Soviets will be in a much better position to consolidate their blizzard gains -- "

1. be bigger then 1.05 by 1.25 million men
2. have 4 months to build forts
3. be spending their AP's to build new armys and not be rebuilding armys before June 1942.

Those are the facts.

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ORIGINAL: Michael T

There is no doubt in my mind that the WITE devs are being overly influenced by Soviet Fanboy Bullies. It seems there are quite a few pro Soviet testers and nil pro German testers. This is a problem as I see it. There needs to be a balance. Personally I do not take any notice of testers who are biased at all. I draw my own unbiased conclusions about WITE, or take note from unbiased testers. I pretty much disregard everything Flaviusx writes because the guy is so obviously biased it’s not funny.

The constant nerfing of the Axis side is making the chances of an Axis victory less and less. It seems that the powers to be just can't stomach the thought of Germany winning the war in 1941/42. They are not even happy that the Russians should win by May 1945, so hey just add another 5 months to the war.

The only thing that was needed was the March madness tweak. The rest is just *pandering* to the Soviet Fanboy Bullies.

As a guy who enjoys playing both sides I think that a point is going to be reached soon (if the constant Axis nerfing is continued) where it will no longer be a possibility for Germany to win the game in 1941/42. It will then become a much less interesting game and it will be harder to find people willing to play German. There needs to be a balance struck between realism and the fun factor. A game that assigns the German no chance of victory in 1941/42 is not fun. And that’s where the game is being pushed. I fully expect the next nerf will be the Lvov pocket. That might just be the final straw for me in playing German anymore, unless there are some big changes made that force the Russians in to some of the unsuccessful counter attacks that were ordered by Stalin. Quid pro quo.

Before I get stomped on by the rhetoric of the Soviet Fanboy Bullies, and for the benefit of other more reasonable minds I am neither an Axis or Soviet fanboy.

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ORIGINAL: Toidi

It seems to me that now:
- thanks to relatively safe winter/spring of '42 SU can get back to the trench warfare in '42 (I'm pretty sure I can do it with some effort & engineering armies)
- Reduced armies capability is going to hurt in the long turn, but not as much as people are fearing; I have no problem with it
- vehicles are going to hurt much more than the armies reduction; even 10k reduction in vehicles in '43 for SU is hurting; fair enough
- impact of making shock/guards armies a window dressing only (as +1 admin is really not that important imho) will affect the game; maybe it is a good idea
- it seems to me that now chances for major victory for German are nil again; chances for draw are probably same or higher
- impact of weather on reinforcements (especially in blizzard) will hurt Germany a lot. This change will lead to a much more difficult blizzard defense, especially for those who like to fight in blizzard (which was pretty much achievable, not sure anymore); it is the only change I like a lot (as it removes inconsistencies), but I think it may backfire badly

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ORIGINAL: Klydon

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ORIGINAL: ComradeP

As the combat system won't be overhauled for the moment, that means the oddities of the combat system (like retreat losses probably being too high for smaller attacks and too low for big ones and wildly fluctuating Soviet losses when attacking) will be there for the future, and they can't be balanced because the problem is with the combat system, not something that's easier to balance like replacements.

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ORIGINAL: MechFO

March Madness is a side effect of the too permissive logistics in WITE.

IMO the current March Madness is a result of overextended Soviets low on supply meeting well supplied Blizzard-sheltered Germans. The results are not unreasonable. "March-Madness" isn't occurring with German units that had to man the line, that would be unreasonable.

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ORIGINAL: colberki

I just hope WITE does not end up like many games especially those from Russian or Eastern European developers where the Germans (in the game) are destined to lose. It maybe not politically correct for the Germans to win but this is a game. But this new rule reducing German CV during the winter of 1941-42 is feeling like the last straw for me. And I have been enjoying playing both German and Soviet sides - seems GG is giving in the the ever vocal minority on the forum.

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ORIGINAL: Kamil


I think these changes will lower dynamics of fighting in '42. Germans will be less able to attack, but it will take more time to mount serious offensive by Red Army. So both sides will grow grow and grow while front remain static.

I hope I am wrong.

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ORIGINAL: sj80

I think Kamil and Pelton are right. 1942 will become much more static now.
I fear this patch is a half step backwards in WITE "evolution".

It will become now much more important to run as Axis backwards during blizzard to save morale and manpower. Without a snow offensive during winter 1942 the Sovjet strength and the fort levels will increase much. Axis offensive actions in 1942 will become weaker now.
I'm really waiting for the patch that prevents Axis retreats during blizzard with high equipment losses. I think it's only a matter of time until the last loophole for the Axis player is closed.
Pelton is also right with naming the major problem: Germany is bound to historic results, Sovjets are free. It seems there are too few Axis fanboys and too many Sovjet fanboys out there.

sj80

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ORIGINAL: wadortch

What has this patch done to prevent the equally unreasonable and unhistorical Soviet run away tactics?

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ORIGINAL: RCH

This game has not been developed by looking at two sides, but is overly influenced on one side.

I am tired of the Axis players being driven away with insults.

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ORIGINAL: Wild

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ORIGINAL: wadortch

I share this perception. Pelton takes his hits for his style but I think many of his point are on point. What is the ultimate goal for the game if both sides play a "perfect" game? I would think a draw. What I sense is that the Soviet play testers who I believe are exerting a bias on the game seek is Soviet win which may be historically supportable and proper for a simulation but makes for a lousy GAME.

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ORIGINAL: Klydon

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ORIGINAL: Klydon

I don't necessarily disagree with you to a point. My issue is there is nothing really important to fight for that a player, especially a Russian, will make a stand for. Both sides play run away (Russian in the summer/fall, German during the winter, Russian during the spring/summer) and the whole thing essentially becomes a counter shoving match back and forth rather than seeing a lot of fighting going on. The fort changes have been a tremendous beneficial change.

Part of the issue is there isn't the ability to have a real good give and take slugging match. The Russians can very rarely counter attack in 1941 and the Germans still can't counter attack without taking casualties that are far too favorable to the Russians from 42 on, no matter what the odds are.

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ORIGINAL: 76mm

Another huge game-changing patch which screws up on-going games. ... So, I'm in 1943 after playing a campaign game for over a year, and most of my armies have almost 30 CPs so are now massively overloaded. It will take about a million APs to fix that small problem. Unless Ketza agrees to play without this patch, that game is over.

I have had it with investing tons of time into this game only to have massive changes introduced which make it difficult or impossible to continue.

And I didn't see any explanation for why CP caps should DECREASE over time as the Soviets, so I guess it is just a hack to introduce more "balance"?

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ORIGINAL: Meteor2

I bought this game when it came out, but after following the discussions in the form, I always hesitated to really start a long campaign.
So I have to say, that my experience here is very low. But it is my feeling, that Pelton is really trying to make things better with the experience he has.
And regarding his comment, that the game should not be developed parallel to "historical" timeline, but be influenced by the user made decisions and the impacts of these, he is ABSOLUTELY right.
I remember, that I had the same impression in the old days of WItP. From a cerain point in time, the Zero-fighters lost there capabilities suddenly. Or japanese invasions were nearly impossible due to a certain date. The time was triggering something and not the flow of the game.
If Pelton, with his big experience, is claiming this, he should not be attacked personally for this. I understand his point...

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ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

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ORIGINAL: Klydon

The Russians now are going to probably be able to continue to attack well into February if not all the way to the end of February. Right now, they start looking to wind it down the first part of February and certainly by the middle of the month, most Russian offensives are done. Nothing wrong, but the Russians now know the Germans probably can't do anything to them if they extend themselves.

And you know what, that's what happened in real life too. The Soviet Union didn't stop attacking in early February and start making preparation for March Madness -- which never in fact happened in real life. (The real life March madness happened in March...of 1943. March 1942 was a mutual exhaustion society.)

I'm gobsmacked by the number of people here who are defending this March stuff. It's blatantly ahistorical. Nobody should be surprised to see attempt to bring it in line. It is every bit as indefensible as the 1.04 Maginot line business -- nor does getting rid of it mean that we are going back to 1.04. This isn't a binary solution, folks.

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ORIGINAL: 76mm

Joel, thank you for your response. I should also say that I appreciate that your team is still putting significant effort into improving the game (and I think that the various patches have been improvements) this long after launch.

That said, playing a campaign game is a huge investment of time, and I'm just not interested in starting another one if I'll just have to flush it down the toilet after a few months. Maybe this is OK for German players, since they have more fun during 1941-1942 anyway, but I only play Sov and replaying 1941 over and over again without ever getting to 1943 is completely unappealing.

What really irks me is that you could have done some pretty simple things to help limit the impact on ongoing games. For instance, in my game I've spent the last few game-months stocking my armies with as many CPs as possible, which turns out was exactly the wrong thing to do. If you had simply told us this change was coming, I would not have done so, and would be in much better shape. Or you could have had the patch calculate how many AP would be needed to "fix" C&C for the player's current OOB and grant those AP as a one-off. Or even some arbitrary number of APs would have been better than nothing.

As it is, we're being treated like beta-testers, not players, and I'm kind of fed up with it.

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ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Ideally between equal opponents, it ought to be a draw or minor win. That's not "always a Soviet victory." I think the current VPs for the campaign game reflect that, there's definitely a clock ticking, although extending things to October 45 is a bit much.

But if you are asking me: should the Germans have a chance to flat out win in 1941-2 between equal opponents? Just plain overrun the Soviet Union?

No. Not even remotely possible. Not between evenly skilled opponents, anyways. I get the feeling a lot of folks have problems with that. And if so, we're never going to agree on this. They want the game design to enable something that it really should not, not if it tries to be in any way a simulation. There's other games out there that will allow this; I can recommend the fun, but not very historical Time of Fury if that's the kind of thing you're looking for.

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ORIGINAL: MechFO

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ORIGINAL: Encircled

There doesn't appear to be any changes to the fortification building rules, so the chances of a Maginot Line in '42, at least from the Soviet side, is nil.

If a German player decides to fortify in '42, then it will be a Maginot Line situation

The Russian player won't have the AP's to build such a line unless the Germans do it

I've not enough experience to know for sure, but in my opinion, if the German does this, he is pretty much making sure that the Russian Juggernaut will win the game.

I see the patch as an incentive for a large scale German '42 offensive, and thats a good thing for game balance, surely?

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ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Any chance of any evidence to back up your statement, based on actual gameplay?

The self-balancing of WITE can be very subtle, and if you look very closely at all the rule and formula changes, you can see some of the swings and roundabouts that creates new challenges for both sides.

The so-called "March Madness" had to be addressed - if Axis players are honest with themselves they know that the strength of the recovery tipped the balance too far. Personally, I felt almost embarrassed by the number of units I was pocketing and the amount of territory I took back. The .59 changes can be worked around with skilled play and the Axis can still get to the summer of 1942 stronger than they were historically and at a start line that will enable a better than historical Case Blue. There is absolutely no evidence that the soviets can build a 4 deep wall of lvl4 entrenchments as seen in 1.04. They will be slightly stronger than earlier versions of 1.05, but there will be plenty of opportunity for the Axis to have a good 1942.

The challenge for the Axis remains judging when to stop attacking, and deciding how much real estate they can hold with what size of army, until attrition causes the tipping point to occur, and defence turns into delay. The Axis have plenty of attrition management tools and the new .59 Static/replacement rules will reduce some of the micromanagement that has been driving me nuts.

.59 does introduce more challenges for Soviet players due to the CC and manpower multiplier changes. Having 1m fewer men in more armies with a dilution of leader quality is a new problem that will require clever solutions.

I think everyone needs to read all the changes very carefully, play the game, and get creative in solving any perceived problems, because signs are this is the version we have to work with for the foreseeable future.