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RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/12/2012 12:05:00 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline 		Apparently this thread -- or something like it -- got back to the directors and a new Red Tails TV ad has been released.

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Post #: 61
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/12/2012 3:35:09 AM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		It was a better trailer. i am going to go see the movie when it comes out. I will try to write an objective review afterwards. I majored in physics, I know some of the flight scenes are aerodynamically impossible. I will give you guys a review of the story.

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Post #: 62
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/12/2012 6:05:36 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

mdiehl is estimating an airplanes performance based on its service record in a completely adverse
enviroment (late war German airspace) without using this enviroment as reference. A classic mistake
which will always lead to incorrect results. Not for the first time I might add...


It is often the case that people areincapable of grasping the point. You, in particular, seem incapable of grasping the importance of logistics in strategic planning. Not for the first time, I might add.

Fielding an aircraft that you cannot logistically support is foolish if you have other designs that are easier to support and that otherwise work pretty well. Under the circumstances, producing the ME-262 was a substantial strategic error for two reasons. (1) It was not so much better than the other interceptors that it was worth the added cost, even assuming proper logistical support, and (2) it was markedly inferior as an interceptor to the late variants of the FW 190 and the TA 152 *because* it could not be properly supported.

Even when it was well-supported, it had a lousy flight profile with respect to the amount of time it could remain in the air and operate at high speeds. And at lower speeds, it was very very vulnerable. It was a great X-Craft. It was not a competitive interceptor design, even when compared to piston-engined a.c. that were available at the time.

The first REAL jet interceptors were the MiG-15 and the F-86. The jets that came before that were not that much better than the high end late WW2 piston engined interceptors that a combatant should count on them unless the combatant could provide the superior logistics required to support them.

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

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Post #: 63
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/13/2012 6:45:00 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Agree, the new trailer looks a bit better. You can see a lot of P-51Bs, so at least
they don´t seem to fly around with bubble canopies in ´43...

As for exploding trains or Mustangs turning on a coin, I will try to ignore and enjoy the rest.

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Post #: 64
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/13/2012 7:38:20 AM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:


The only 10 min I remember being in the cinema watching a war movie when people actually got really silent were the first 10 min of Saving Privat Ryan. The rest of the film was as much Oktoberfest as in every other movie.


Actually there are a few, they are just seldom typical Hollywood stuff.
German movies like "Stalingrad", or "Der Untergang" come to mind. I was stunned for some time
after leaving the cinema.



Der Untergang is a punch in the gut and one of the greatest movies I've ever seen. There are scenes in there that'll haunt you for some time after you watch it.

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Post #: 65
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/13/2012 7:58:13 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:


The only 10 min I remember being in the cinema watching a war movie when people actually got really silent were the first 10 min of Saving Privat Ryan. The rest of the film was as much Oktoberfest as in every other movie.


Actually there are a few, they are just seldom typical Hollywood stuff.
German movies like "Stalingrad", or "Der Untergang" come to mind. I was stunned for some time
after leaving the cinema.



Der Untergang is a punch in the gut and one of the greatest movies I've ever seen. There are scenes in there that'll haunt you for some time after you watch it.


Absolutely. Some scenes are so surreal and real at the same time that you could almost believe you know
how this must have felt.

I always regarded Bruno Ganz as a sensational actor, after Der Untergang I became just slightly afraid of him.

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Post #: 66
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/13/2012 3:06:13 PM   
Treetop64


Posts: 926
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: 519 Redwood City - BASE (Hex 218, 70)
Status: offline 		He is sensational. Ganz was amazing in Downfall, as was all of the cast. My GF was like, "Is that really Hitler?".

Several of the actors required a bit of "coercing" to play the roles of some of Nazi officials, particularly that of Hitler and Goebbels. Understandable, though some might argue that they wanted to be seen as simply not wanting to appear too anxious to play those roles. I disagree. I believe they genuinely had apprehensions about playing the roles.

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Post #: 67
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/13/2012 3:23:14 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Goebbels was absulutely fantastic (actor quality) in this movie. He looked, talked and behaved like coming out of a time machine *shudders*

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Post #: 68
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/13/2012 3:43:59 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Ulrich Matthes looks like death himself. Perfect for the role. Exactly the same empty stare as Goebbels.
The cast was definitely close to perfection.

I think I remember an interview with Ganz where he described extreme difficulties to return to his usual self as he
was so immersed in copying Hitler´s body language, speech and erratic unpredictable behaviour.
The only similar statement I remember from a movie was from Dustin Hoffman when he played the autistic in Rain Man.



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Post #: 69
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/13/2012 8:07:11 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		You wouldn't be talking about the one where the IJN plane tries to drop a bomb on a car? The one where boys are playing baseball at dawn on a Sunday?

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Post #: 70
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/23/2012 8:52:59 PM   
geofflambert


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From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

I hope it will not be another move that name shall not be spoken


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Post #: 71
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/23/2012 9:20:10 PM   
Halsey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

You wouldn't be talking about the one where the IJN plane tries to drop a bomb on a car? The one where boys are playing baseball at dawn on a Sunday?





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Post #: 72
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/23/2012 9:39:06 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline
quote:

You wouldn't be talking about the one where the IJN plane tries to drop a bomb on a car? The one where boys are playing baseball at dawn on a Sunday?


That's two different movies I think...didn't memorize every scene in the recent movie that shouldn't be spoken of but the first comes from that one and the second comes from some movie about half a century prior IIRC.

BTW I will watch the movie for momentary enjoyment; not with any hope that it will in every way accurately portray the historical record. The Tuskegee Airmen faced a segregated and racist United States for sure...I imagine they got that part pretty much right. But I have no faith whatever that the Hollywood moguls got all that much about the fight against the Germans right.

In my understanding, the Red Tails were assigned as bomber escorts. That meant they had to protect the bombers. If they shot the German fighters down or lured them away with sausage and grits would make no difference in the accomplishment of THAT MISSION. Any evaluation of how well they accomplished THAT MISSION would state that they accomplished it very, very well. But Hollywood is unlikely to act as if that accomplishment is sufficiently dramatic so I kinda think that they will add a little something dreamed up by some studio hack who once played "army" with the kids in the neighborhood.

< Message edited by spence -- 1/23/2012 9:52:59 PM >

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Post #: 73
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/24/2012 12:49:34 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		I think you're right,it's Tora Tora Tora .

The kids had been out drinking all night.

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Post #: 74
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/30/2012 1:53:37 AM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		Ok. Just back from seeing Red Tails. First impression, the CGI battle scenes were over the top, not as bad as in a couple of other movies I've seen but that is my opinion. The story line was ok, not great but ok. One of my biggest complaints, not every airplane that goes down explodes in a big fireball before going down. This was a war film not a love story. There was one but it was not over done. I paid matinee price for the film and thought I got my money's worth.

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Post #: 75
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/30/2012 5:45:31 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Thanks for the summary! I guess it turns out just as expected, not top league but
good entertainment.

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Post #: 76
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/30/2012 9:45:26 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

One of my biggest complaints, not every airplane that goes down explodes in a big fireball before going down.


I had the same reaction. But on consideration, decided that if they had taken the time to show just how difficult it was to shoot down a single engine -- much less a B-17 -- the movie would have to be an hour longer just to make room for extended action sequences as each 109s firing pass takes a few more aluminum shingles off the group leader's Fortress.

I did enjoy the action sequence where the Red Tails shot up the airfield. I don't know how a P-40 gets the upper deck of a control tower to explode like that using only .50cal, but it would not surprise me if the Krauts were storing avgas in there, the clever bastages. As though they said "Hey, just in case some American P-40s decide to shoot up the airfield let's keep a couple of spare drums of hi-octane up here in the control tower."

But it's all good. Any time you get to see even fictional nazis burn it's a good movie.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 1/30/2012 9:46:08 PM >

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

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Post #: 77
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/30/2012 10:05:19 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Courtland Milloys editorial on the movie in today's Washington Post. Pretty much says it all from my perspective.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/red-tails-a-disservice-to-tuskegee-airmen/2012/01/29/gIQAEkHwaQ_story.html?hpid=z9

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Post #: 78
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/30/2012 10:15:25 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Courtland Milloys editorial on the movie in today's Washington Post. Pretty much says it all from my perspective.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/red-tails-a-disservice-to-tuskegee-airmen/2012/01/29/gIQAEkHwaQ_story.html?hpid=z9


That was exactly the impression I got from all the trailers up to the premiere...

Although Bruce above write that it was worth matinee price I will skip the cinema and wait fro DVD / BluRay and then watch it at home as rental...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 79
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/30/2012 10:44:40 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		My wife is pretty much of a liberal Dem (with a big D) and says she wants to watch this one (though she claims most war movies are depressing). Funny thing is that I've heard that war is not a good thing in most cases. I am fortunate that she also detests movie theaters so I guess I won't see this one til it comes out on DVD. Oh darn

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Post #: 80
RE: OT: Red Tails - 1/30/2012 10:50:32 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Our "white" pilots wont protect the bombers.........like little kiddies who wont listen so whe need you guys O.o. This movie is so bad I have no words.
Oh and of course its smart to portray the Germans in a film in which racism plays a great part like that.

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Post #: 81
RE: OT: Red Tails - 2/1/2012 8:23:42 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		TBH, I thought the caricature of the bad German was perfectly reasonable and not at all a distortion. If you had to personify the basic characteristics of German occupation policies and warfare in a single crude character, "Pretty Boy" was the right way to do it.

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

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Post #: 82
RE: OT: Red Tails - 2/4/2012 4:11:47 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I saw the movie today. I was mostly happy with it. I know we purists will never be happy, but no one will ever come up with the money to make a movie like this that satisfies us. I know there have been great ones (Tora Tora Tora, the Sand Pebbles, the Blue Max etc.) this one I think was comparable to the Rod Steiger Waterloo. Yes we would prefer that they skip the character development and romance to leave time for one or two more dogfight scenes, but the amount of money spent if we all went to see it in theatre ten times would still not amount to crap. None the less, some of the problems were unnecessary and avoidable. I don't give a **** about the markings on the planes or stuff like that but there were problems.

The first is forgivable in my view (it's a movie) where they seemed to have an unlimited amount of ammunition. Following up a dogfight with an attack on an airfield, especially involving more than one pass is clearly impossible. However, a filmaker cannot include such an attack without adding 20 minuten to the film. As it was they edited out a lot of stuff that I know they filmed/animated. Filmakers are good at what they do and we are not, but I feel Lucas made a good effort herel

The attack on the ship: I have no idea what that was (an armed merchant cruiser confiscated from the Italians?) but even if it were a heavily armed tanker full of oil, it wasn't, 50 cals could not cause those explosions. An unarmored locomotive, absolutely, those 50's could easily penetrate the boiler and then watch out. I've seen a lot of gun camera footage that demonstrates that. Tbolts included, they all had 50 cals.. Don't bring up the rockets, I've seen MG only attacks taking out trains. In any case I think that anecdote was made up out of whole cloth.

I've seen some discussion about European racism or lack of it. Let's begin with the Nazis, who were certainly racist, but most Luftwaffe pilot's racism did not hold a candle to southern US racism, actually to northern racism either. Before the war, American jazz musicians and singers were treated like royalty throughout western Europe, and the Germans in particular could not get enough of this American invention, Jazz. Yes, there is racism in Europe to this day, but we are in no place to cast aspersions on them. As for Italians, they had been dealing with Africans for thousands of years, and mostly they knew better, much better.

There's a whole lot of other things I would have liked to have seen, such as their time in Alabama, but I cannot fault Lucas's time management here. I say worthy effort, better than most.

Anyway I don't think mass formations of 262's occurred, but whadda I know. Also it went by in a flash, but I thought I saw an FW-190 on the ground in the attack on the airfield scene, can anyone confirm that?


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Post #: 83
RE: OT: Red Tails - 2/4/2012 5:13:17 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Oh, and Tsugaru minelayer fangirl, I'm not convinced you are a girl, but you probably get that a lot. Plan 9 from Outer Space was so bad it was good, I think your review was not quite that bad. Try again if you want my respect.

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Post #: 84
RE: OT: Red Tails - 2/4/2012 5:29:55 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Oh, but Tsugaru minelayer fangirl, that avatar has got to be the spookiest and scariest avatar I've seen yet. On that count, you go girl!

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Post #: 85
RE: OT: Red Tails - 2/4/2012 7:40:03 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		geofflambert, never again doubt the integrity of our only officially recognized hex field fangirl. She´s bright, you
might learn a thing or two.


Ah, and behind that Minelayer sig lies an interesting story involving the forums most disregarded movie.
But this is her story to tell...

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Post #: 86
RE: OT: Red Tails - 2/4/2012 8:34:12 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Though "integrity" might be the wrong word. Considering the background of how the Tsugaru class got her
current fame...

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Post #: 87
RE: OT: Red Tails - 2/4/2012 3:47:04 PM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Our "white" pilots wont protect the bombers.........like little kiddies who wont listen so whe need you guys O.o. This movie is so bad I have no words.
Oh and of course its smart to portray the Germans in a film in which racism plays a great part like that.


GZ, I think this was balanced somewhat by showing the racism of the USAAF officers in the officers clubs, the attitude of many in the Pentagon (again shown in the film) and by the attitude of the B-17 pilots when they first saw the 332nd in the air.

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Post #: 88
RE: OT: Red Tails - 2/4/2012 4:03:43 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I've seen some discussion about European racism or lack of it. Let's begin with the Nazis, who were certainly racist, but most Luftwaffe pilot's racism did not hold a candle to southern US racism, actually to northern racism either. Before the war, American jazz musicians and singers were treated like royalty throughout western Europe, and the Germans in particular could not get enough of this American invention, Jazz. Yes, there is racism in Europe to this day, but we are in no place to cast aspersions on them. As for Italians, they had been dealing with Africans for thousands of years, and mostly they knew better, much better.




All depends on how you define "race". The Nazi's had little trouble obtaining help all over Europe in their campaign to eradicate Jews, Gypsies, and other "undesirables". American racisism never reached the "final solution" stage.

Both groups basically shot themselves in the foot with their racial stupidity. If you check the records for the First World War you will find that German Jews had one of the best records of any group in the Kaiser's Army...., and the American "Colored Division" (I think it was the 93rd) that served with the French was highly decorated and regarded by them. The racist policies followed by both Armies in the Second World War deprived them of a large pool of excellent combat manpower.

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Post #: 89
RE: OT: Red Tails - 2/4/2012 4:08:29 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I've seen some discussion about European racism or lack of it. Let's begin with the Nazis, who were certainly racist, but most Luftwaffe pilot's racism did not hold a candle to southern US racism, actually to northern racism either. Before the war, American jazz musicians and singers were treated like royalty throughout western Europe, and the Germans in particular could not get enough of this American invention, Jazz. Yes, there is racism in Europe to this day, but we are in no place to cast aspersions on them. As for Italians, they had been dealing with Africans for thousands of years, and mostly they knew better, much better.




All depends on how you define "race". The Nazi's had little trouble obtaining help all over Europe in their campaign to eradicate Jews, Gypsies, and other "undesirables". American racisism never reached the "final solution" stage.

Both groups basically shot themselves in the foot with their racial stupidity. If you check the records for the First World War you will find that German Jews had one of the best records of any group in the Kaiser's Army...., and the American "Colored Division" (I think it was the 93rd) that served with the French was highly decorated and regarded by them. The racist policies followed by both Armies in the Second World War deprived them of a large pool of excellent combat manpower.


Guys,

Let's recenter this discussion on the movie, please. The direction this thread has taken is very dangerous.

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