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Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In?

 
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Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/5/2012 9:32:50 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		I just started to check out the newest patch; and unless my memory is completely shot, it appears as if the 25th and 16 MTZ Divisions are now fixed, which effectively does in the Lvov pocket...or am I hallucinating?

And...I waas only able to destory 2,000 Soviet aircraft on the ground (down from ~ 3,600 before).


Well done

< Message edited by Marquo -- 2/5/2012 9:34:06 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/5/2012 9:37:12 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Its a Soviet Fan Boy patch remember

Wait till you see that the Tiger Tank has been replaced by bicycle recon units

In all seriousness, you'd thought somebody might have mentioned that as its quite important......

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RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/5/2012 9:37:38 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Huh? I just started a new game against Baelfin and he did a Lvov pocket just fine.

Aircraft losses on the surprise turn were surprisingly low, though. Right around the same 2k you're reporting. Wasn't expecting that.

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RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/5/2012 9:43:00 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Marquo, you are indeed, hallucinating. Those two Motorized Divisions have always been frozen on turn 1. They, along with the rest of PG 1, activate on turn 2.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 4
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/5/2012 9:45:19 PM   
Farfarer61

 

Posts: 713
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		Yup, but see the paranoia that's out there now... :)

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RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/5/2012 9:54:45 PM   
Cerion

 

Posts: 101
Joined: 9/16/2009
From: Europe
Status: offline
quote:

And...I waas only able to destory 2,000 Soviet aircraft on the ground (down from ~ 3,600 before).


Same for me (2,190 already).

Regards

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Post #: 6
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/5/2012 9:58:31 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		No - something is not right? There are only now only 4 armored divisions from the 1st Panzer Group with are mobile on T1; the 24th Pz Corps releases on T2 - I think this is different. Perhaps the pocket can be done if the 24th Pz Corps from AGC is diverted south....are you guys sure??????


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RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/5/2012 11:43:29 PM   
OTZ

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Panzers are fine, air losses on T1 are markedly lower.

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Post #: 8
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 12:35:51 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Okay, I'm just paranoid - but still.....

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Post #: 9
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 12:55:57 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

No - something is not right? There are only now only 4 armored divisions from the 1st Panzer Group with are mobile on T1;

Same as it ever was...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

the 24th Pz Corps releases on T2 - I think this is different.

You mean the 14th (XIV) Pz Korps, don't you? That was always frozen on turn 1.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo
Perhaps the pocket can be done if the 24th Pz Corps from AGC is diverted south....are you guys sure??????

I generally use the XXXXVI Pz Korps from PG 2 to assist. Also, some of the infantry and the cavalry from XXIV Pz Korps. But, yeah...I'm sure...

(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 10
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 1:10:29 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Marquo what ever you do don't elaborate on my version of the Lvov pocket. Or poor old Flav will have a fit.

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Post #: 11
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 2:09:30 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Michael,

With time and the perspective of many PBEMS, AARs, and history, it seems that the the Lvov pocket as it plays out in WITE, sets the stage for a domino effect which has resulted in deep introspection; this introspection has resulted in many good patches and updates; but IMHO the fundamental issue of supply has not really been addressed.

My opinion (FWIW): revisit the logistical rules and the Lvov pocket.

Marquo

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 12
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 3:24:10 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		As usual Marquo you offer a reasonable and well balanced view.

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Post #: 13
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 3:30:26 AM   
parusski


Posts: 4804
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

I just started to check out the newest patch; and unless my memory is completely shot, it appears as if the 25th and 16 MTZ Divisions are now fixed, which effectively does in the Lvov pocket...or am I hallucinating?

And...I waas only able to destory 2,000 Soviet aircraft on the ground (down from ~ 3,600 before).


Well done


I can't comment about the Lvov Pocket, but I have started 4 games just to bomb Russian airfields and the most Soviet aircraft I have destroyed is 2122.

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RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 5:05:16 AM   
kevini1000

 

Posts: 430
Joined: 2/21/2010
Status: offline 		Yeah I expected the number would shrink after the earlier patch. They went from 50% to 33% for planes hitting airfields even on turn 1. It shold have been left at 50% for turn 1.



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Post #: 15
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 12:16:30 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4804
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sath

Yeah I expected the number would shrink after the earlier patch. They went from 50% to 33% for planes hitting airfields even on turn 1. It shold have been left at 50% for turn 1.





I agree. At first I thought I was dreaming when the number of commie air planes I destroyed fell by about 60%.

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Post #: 16
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 7:46:16 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		Pavel made some changes to the air combat model so aircraft would not use drop tanks to kill enemy ground units, tac bombers would not use their defensive guns (only forward) or level bombers would not use any guns at all (they are assumed to be bombing from high above, out of effective range of their guns).
This may have influenced the aircraft bombing results.
Remember how surprising it was for an infantry squad to be killed when an aircraft drop tank fell onto their head(s).

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Post #: 17
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 8:16:11 PM   
Baron von Beer

 

Posts: 232
Joined: 9/18/2003
Status: offline 		Question is, is it too little now? Seems ~2-4,000 losses in the opening days is the most common figure in books etc, but that was accomplished by a Luftwaffe that was also flying CAS, interdiction, etc. In game, the player must commit 100% of his air missions to airfield strikes just to reach the low end of those numbers.

< Message edited by Baron von Beer -- 2/6/2012 8:22:50 PM >

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RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 8:21:04 PM   
Baron von Beer

 

Posts: 232
Joined: 9/18/2003
Status: offline 		*oops, didn't mean to post again, please delete


< Message edited by Baron von Beer -- 2/6/2012 8:22:19 PM >

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RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 8:25:56 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

the player must commit 100% of his air missions to airfield strikes


it is physically impossible.

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Post #: 20
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 9:58:08 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4804
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
Status: offline
quote:

Remember how surprising it was for an infantry squad to be killed when an aircraft drop tank fell onto their head(s).


Well I have grown to depend on killing infantry squads with drop tanks. New tactics needed...

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 21
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/6/2012 11:21:44 PM   
kevini1000

 

Posts: 430
Joined: 2/21/2010
Status: offline 		So I guess it make no difference if Russian planes losses are 50% less now on turn 1. I guess a fix is only needed or counts if it help the Russian side now. Honestly anyone with half a brain understood what the prior 2 patches would do the turn 1 Russian aircraft losses and you all did it anyway. This is just flat out blatant now. There is actually some merrit to what Pelton is saying. He might not argue is best manner but you all are so convinced that this is the best course that you go right along.

< Message edited by sath -- 2/7/2012 12:33:42 AM >

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RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/7/2012 12:06:00 AM   
traemyn

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sath

So I guess it make no difference if Russian planes losses are 50% less now on turn 1. I guess a fix is only needed or counts if it help the Russian side now. Honestly anyone with half a brain understood what the prior 2 patches would do the turn 1 Russian aircraft losses and you all did it anyway. This just flat out blatant now. There is actually some merrit to what Pelton is saying. He might not argue is best manner but you all are so convinced that this is the best course that you go right along.



Can we please get some more responses from testers/dev on this change before sath starts handing out tinfoil hats? Thanks

(in reply to kevini1000)
Post #: 23
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/7/2012 12:06:55 AM   
Timmeh


Posts: 767
Joined: 12/20/2005
Status: offline 		careful, some glass stomachs might need to be installed...this way fanboys could see where they are going.

I dont believe a group with over 50% flight use will fly a bombing run... so its always going to have half its capacity left for dem udder missions? 2K plus is possible with a little coaching but now I need to choose between those crappy fighters up close that will be overrun first turn or more juicier bombers farther away. The more you go at those bomber bases farther back the more fighters up close will escape turn one.

Better play than obliterating the entire front first turn as was in the original release no?

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RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/7/2012 12:30:57 AM   
kevini1000

 

Posts: 430
Joined: 2/21/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: traemyn


quote:

ORIGINAL: sath

So I guess it make no difference if Russian planes losses are 50% less now on turn 1. I guess a fix is only needed or counts if it help the Russian side now. Honestly anyone with half a brain understood what the prior 2 patches would do the turn 1 Russian aircraft losses and you all did it anyway. This just flat out blatant now. There is actually some merrit to what Pelton is saying. He might not argue is best manner but you all are so convinced that this is the best course that you go right along.



Can we please get some more responses from testers/dev on this change before sath starts handing out tinfoil hats? Thanks


Honestly that is straight up personel.

(in reply to traemyn)
Post #: 25
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/7/2012 12:38:25 AM   
traemyn

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		I thought it was more of a light jab at the over-the-top tone your post conveyed. I apologize regardless.

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Post #: 26
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/7/2012 12:58:59 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Well, I'm not entirely thrilled with these results either. It's not like I want another 2,000 biplanes and prewar junk. It takes forever as it is to run those inventories dry, this is just going to be more APs I have to spend for manual aircraft upgrades. The Luftwaffe was a silent partner in the Soviet air modernization program, now, not quite so much.







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RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/7/2012 1:58:28 AM   
Baron von Beer

 

Posts: 232
Joined: 9/18/2003
Status: offline 		The new German tactic, drop spare parts and fuel instead of bombs so the Soviets have to fly I-15s even longer?

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Post #: 28
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/7/2012 2:23:24 AM   
csarebel


Posts: 31
Joined: 4/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baron von Beer

The new German tactic, drop spare parts and fuel instead of bombs so the Soviets have to fly I-15s even longer?


LOL...thats a good one.

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Post #: 29
RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? - 2/7/2012 2:39:52 AM   
jazman

 

Posts: 369
Joined: 1/20/2007
From: Crush Depth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Well, I'm not entirely thrilled with these results either. It's not like I want another 2,000 biplanes and prewar junk. It takes forever as it is to run those inventories dry, this is just going to be more APs I have to spend for manual aircraft upgrades. The Luftwaffe was a silent partner in the Soviet air modernization program, now, not quite so much.



So would you recommend the Germans skip airfield bombing on turn 1 altogether? If 2000 junk planes is a bad thing, why isn't 4000 junk planes even worse?


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