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My empire earns too much money - 2/7/2012 7:41:39 PM   
WiZz

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
Status: offline 		So, I played a few matches in Legends and found interesting thing - it's impossible to destroy empire economy. For now cash is not a limitation factor, which prevent spamming ships/troops or colonizators. And I think, it's very sad, because game becomes easier.

My reply:
quote:

For now it's impossible to destroy your economy. I remember my old game where I found debris field and began to repair ships in it. Then I got a huge shortage of cash and as result lose my game. Other example. I wanted to begin a preventive war with other empire. Began training troops. But I ordered them too many and my economy went to hell. Remember this situation with nostalgia.


So, what do you think, gamers? Agree/disagree with me?
Post #: 1
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/7/2012 7:59:18 PM   
Theluin


Posts: 189
Joined: 5/13/2011
From: Europe, Terra
Status: offline 		I like that nothings limits the number of ships you can field (That was the best feature of Star Ruler imho) However I think that colonies should consume all types of resources (strategic and luxuries) and at a greater pace than now. Such a soft cap would imho (again, turns out I'm a humble person ) be much better than just turning down the income rates of colonies. But all in all I agree that right now you can steamroll the game with little to no thought because economy, strategy in battles, etc. don't play any role at all in DW.

(in reply to WiZz)
Post #: 2
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/7/2012 9:14:32 PM   
onomastikon

 

Posts: 193
Joined: 11/29/2011
Status: offline 		I also agree. I would like to see not only more scaling for mid- and late-game $$-usage, but resource usage as well. Often in mid-, and so far in every game in late-game, I have no resource shortages whatsoever, and that is a de-incentive to start wars or otherwise do something.

(in reply to Theluin)
Post #: 3
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/7/2012 9:18:04 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		I think the issue is buying costs are tiny and do not scale with economy.This mid to late game economy ruins the gameplay in my view.Buildings,pirates,wonders,diplomacy bribes all become meaningless and have no consequence to gameplay when you have 7 trillion moneys.

If I had access to the code I would increase all buying,building,bribes,pirates by x1000.The game is hardcoded so we are stuck with it.


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Post #: 4
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/7/2012 9:28:04 PM   
Mozo

 

Posts: 96
Joined: 7/28/2009
Status: offline 		What about the corruption slider? Did anyone try to use this to offset the mega-funds (which I agree happens - something must have changed because I was always struggling in previous versions).

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
Post #: 5
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/7/2012 9:41:26 PM   
Raap

 

Posts: 404
Joined: 1/12/2011
Status: offline 		Yeah, this really needs to be taken out of the code and into a modifiable text file somewhere so modders and experienced players can find the sweet-spot between income/expenses for the player and the AI's ability to cope with those same changes.

(in reply to Mozo)
Post #: 6
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 1:24:30 AM   
Harry2

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline 		Agree completely

Maintence costs need to be much higher for everything, especially big ships.

Should be some limited and strategically important resources.

(in reply to WiZz)
Post #: 7
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 3:47:57 AM   
Hetulik

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 8/3/2009
Status: offline 		I agree with everything i've seen in this thread. I'd like to see some combination of less money, more ship upkeep costs, and significantly more resource consumption by colonies.

I think Distant worlds would become and even more interesting game if there were the ability to have more scarcity of resources, money, and higher resource consumption. More scarcity would lead to more strategy because tradeoffs would need to be made.

(in reply to Harry2)
Post #: 8
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 6:02:17 AM   
currierm

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 9/9/2010
Status: offline 		Are the people saying this starting with a harsh homeworld? When I played that way, the first 10 years were very challenging. You had to constantly make tough choices- another constructor, a few more destroyers, build a colony? Haven't played that way since RTS (recently I've been giving the computer players big advantages and stick with normal homeworlds), so maybe something changed.

There are some archived threads about "creating a challenging game".

(in reply to Hetulik)
Post #: 9
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 6:16:42 AM   
WiZz

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
Status: offline 		Setting a harsh homeworld isn't a decision. Get a few colonies or independent worlds and you earn a lot of money again. Even with better homeworld game was more challenging in older versions. I saw that since Legends release.

(in reply to currierm)
Post #: 10
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 11:47:54 AM   
jpwrunyan


Posts: 558
Joined: 12/3/2011
From: Uranus
Status: offline 		I have bankrupted my private economy in legends. Turn up your difficulty and set your homeworld to harsh. Also I put colony availability and independents at lowest level. Be a man.

(in reply to WiZz)
Post #: 11
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 12:34:48 PM   
J HG T


Posts: 1093
Joined: 5/14/2010
From: Kiadia Prime
Status: offline 		Some things I've found to keep the economy in sensible levels and the games challenging even late games:
- Use automated taxes. I've always done this as I hate microing colony taxes in 4Xs. Also, automated taxes won't allow you to abuse the taxing system and thus making ****loads of credits.
- Tone down independents or switch them off completely.
- Play on hard or hardest. This gives AIs economy a boost and keeps them comptetive with human players.
- Reduce colony prevelance. This prevents colony rush/spam.
- Play games with lesser star systems. Combo this with lower colony prevelance for maximum effect.
I personally have always played 400 or 700 system games. This way the expansion and size of the empires stays at reasonable levels. Even with my new rig I've decided not to play bigger games 'cause they can get quite chaotic steamrollerfests with no real strategy.
Still, I have to say that my games with normal colony prevelance have stayed surprisingly manageable and "balanced".

I have to agree about larger ships maintenance costs though; They definetly need to be bigger.


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Post #: 12
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 2:52:51 PM   
Harry2

 

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Joined: 5/3/2005
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quote:

- Reduce colony prevelance. This prevents colony rush/spam.


The problem with this is that it only seems to work with worlds that match your homeworld.

Example: right now I'm playing Humans from Continental worlds and set "reduced colonies". Result was very few Continental worlds but as soon as I researched Ocean and Marshy the map light up like a Christmas tree with available worlds.

Have been spamming colony ships and now have about half the 700 star galaxy. Other 7 empires have the rest so basically I've won this game without even getting into a war. And yes, setting was on "hardest".

"Reduced colonies" should mean all types of worlds should have a greater proportion set below 50%, not just the player's type. But the AI may find this even harder than the player to cope with and make the game even easier.

(in reply to J HG T)
Post #: 13
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 3:54:25 PM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2428
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline 		But I think you can control a lot of these features at the beginning of the game... the correct combination of colony scarcity, racial attributes and so on, I think you can really control all of this...

If Elliot changes this, I want a slider... I do not mind having a tight economy, but I also do not want this to become so difficult that I cannot field a fleet.

< Message edited by tjhkkr -- 2/8/2012 3:56:26 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 5:14:28 PM   
WiZz

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: J HG T

Some things I've found to keep the economy in sensible levels and the games challenging even late games:
- Use automated taxes. I've always done this as I hate microing colony taxes in 4Xs. Also, automated taxes won't allow you to abuse the taxing system and thus making ****loads of credits.
- Tone down independents or switch them off completely.
- Play on hard or hardest. This gives AIs economy a boost and keeps them comptetive with human players.
- Reduce colony prevelance. This prevents colony rush/spam.
- Play games with lesser star systems. Combo this with lower colony prevelance for maximum effect.
I personally have always played 400 or 700 system games. This way the expansion and size of the empires stays at reasonable levels. Even with my new rig I've decided not to play bigger games 'cause they can get quite chaotic steamrollerfests with no real strategy.
Still, I have to say that my games with normal colony prevelance have stayed surprisingly manageable and "balanced".

I have to agree about larger ships maintenance costs though; They definetly need to be bigger.



I had already tried all this things. Rushing and spamming troops and ships are still too easy. In original and ROTS I can't do this and this is a fact.
Very hard AIs are still feckless like normal AI.

< Message edited by WiZz -- 2/8/2012 5:17:20 PM >

(in reply to J HG T)
Post #: 15
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 5:47:37 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

I have bankrupted my private economy in legends. Turn up your difficulty and set your homeworld to harsh. Also I put colony availability and independents at lowest level. Be a man.


That does not make any difference to the issue at hand.It only makes the starting game less fun.No starting conditions change the mid to late game issues.People want to play on large galaxys but have the economy scale with it.It is like playing EU3 and then adding a money cheat £10000000.It ruins the strategic choices.

This is my only remaiing big issue beef with the game now that the sphere and colony distance has been solved with a slider.

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Post #: 16
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 6:25:13 PM   
J HG T


Posts: 1093
Joined: 5/14/2010
From: Kiadia Prime
Status: offline 		Sounds like late game economy seriously needs some cash-suckers. In my opinion, this should be the next important mechanic to fix after the design fixes.
One thing I've noticed recently: In most games the corruption doesn't have any real effect on your economy, no matter how large your empire is. Corruption was nerfed quite heavily at some point in the past.
I remember you had to be much more careful while expanding, 'cause distant worlds (yeah, cheap pun) could ruin your economy due to their high corruption levels.
Not sure if boosting corruption would fix late game large empires economic superiority, just remembered that corruption had much more noticeably effect in original DW and RotS.


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Nothing is impossible, not if you can imagine it!
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Post #: 17
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 7:03:16 PM   
Theluin


Posts: 189
Joined: 5/13/2011
From: Europe, Terra
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz
[...]
Very hard AIs are still feckless like normal AI.


The difficulty setting doesn't change AI. It just gives the AI higher income.

(in reply to WiZz)
Post #: 18
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 7:29:10 PM   
WiZz

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
Status: offline 		I meant, that AI can't dispose a big cash correctly.

(in reply to Theluin)
Post #: 19
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/8/2012 7:36:48 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

I meant, that AI can't dispose a big cash correctly.


Indeed during war the human can mega mobilise some of those trillions and risk making a loss for a long,long time but I think the A.I only builds when making a profit so it does not overbuild build ships during war even if it has huge amounts of money in the bank.I think this adds to the mid game issues because you outmobilize the A.I because of those huge cash reserves and they do not do the same.

< Message edited by ASHBERY76 -- 2/8/2012 7:40:18 PM >

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Post #: 20
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/9/2012 5:46:03 AM   
currierm

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 9/9/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: J HG T

Sounds like late game economy seriously needs some cash-suckers. In my opinion, this should be the next important mechanic to fix after the design fixes.



It might help to make the higher tech ships relatively more expensive. You can't go too wild with this- or it will just be better to build lots of cheap, old ships. But just checked my current game and my starting destroyer was 2800 credits and current generation destroyer is 5200. Rather than make all ships more expensive, which would hurt the early game, this would mostly effect mid and end game.

(in reply to J HG T)
Post #: 21
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/9/2012 8:02:17 AM   
Texashawk

 

Posts: 208
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline 		And to think, when DW first came out the whining was about how difficult it was to make money and that it was too easy to crash your economy. Sometimes, Eliot, you can't win for trying.

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Post #: 22
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/9/2012 12:35:20 PM   
solops

 

Posts: 814
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Central Texas
Status: offline 		As was mentioned earlier in the thread, if you have too much money, adjust corruption during the game setup. That should fix things up as your empire grows. If that does not fix it for you, fix it in the race file.

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Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand

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Post #: 23
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/9/2012 3:17:01 PM   
adecoy95


Posts: 420
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline 		pretty sure this is a result of the features added in legends, between the colony govenors, new building system, and your empire leader, and research in general. there are a lot of new ways to get a ton of extra income.

it also does not help one bit that you can now increase colony taxes above 50%

(in reply to solops)
Post #: 24
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/9/2012 3:36:46 PM   
onomastikon

 

Posts: 193
Joined: 11/29/2011
Status: offline 		Isn't the main problem one almost entirely for late game? In other words, one for which the solutions offered here are not really good, because they make the early- and much of the mid-game greatly unenjoyable at the expense of an only slightly improved late game. I think scaling (and hence NOT with global settings, or settings which primarily effect the first parts of the game, such as howeworld settings) needs to be in order, something which might, in fact, check the entire galaxy stock of resources and money and apply an inflation penalty on upkeep / future costs based on that.

(in reply to adecoy95)
Post #: 25
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/10/2012 5:50:46 AM   
msnevil

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 8/10/2011
Status: offline 		The corruption slider is the key, I forget the settings. But at Max, it should be very difficult to balance the "budget". Sort of like the real world. (Deleted real world allusions, there is no "split" divisions of public\private in the real world. Its Corporate Nationalism run amuck.)

Nerfing the economy based on mid to late game preferences seems a little extreme to me.

I use similar settings set like "J HG T" above, and find I don't have oodles of money just laying around. The default settings make the game too easy, try to expand your horizons, and nerf yourself. That’s why the game came with sliders, use them.

(in reply to onomastikon)
Post #: 26
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/10/2012 9:34:20 AM   
Robocrab

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 1/26/2012
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quote:

The corruption slider is the key

The corruption slider is not key

Capital -> no corruption -> 95% budget

Example:


< Message edited by Robocrab -- 2/10/2012 9:36:08 AM >

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Post #: 27
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/10/2012 1:39:25 PM   
solops

 

Posts: 814
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Central Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Robocrab

quote:

The corruption slider is the key

The corruption slider is not key

Capital -> no corruption -> 95% budget



Your capital should always have low corruption effects, as should your regional capitals. The outlying planets are the ones most effected. At what corruption level are you playing?

_____________________________

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand

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Post #: 28
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/10/2012 2:26:26 PM   
Harry2

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline 		I don't like the idea of using a single parameter (like corruption) to throttle back the entire economy. It seems too superficial and contrived.

Much like the Colony Shere of Influence setting and the limits you can now place on colonization distance (thank you devs for allowing them to be set to effectively zero effect) : these are controls not based on any "realistic" factors in the game mechanics but just put there to push the game in certain directions.

If the game justs defaults to effortless cash flow that can be controlled by a single slider then what was the point of 30 or more resources types, miners, freighters, delivery routes and resource use for specifc components, etc? All that detail seems to be wasted. It should be put to use and balanced to provide the kind of throttles that make sense, and not just layer-on another "God Control" that ruins immersion.

(in reply to solops)
Post #: 29
RE: My empire earns too much money - 2/10/2012 2:51:24 PM   
Robocrab

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 1/26/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: solops
Your capital should always have low corruption effects, as should your regional capitals. The outlying planets are the ones most effected. At what corruption level are you playing?

Corruption level - Normal
The capital is always 0% corruption.
In the example Capital tax money = 2 364 000
With this amount of money the other colonies are no longer important

It is necessary to balance
1. Reduce the tax revenue from the colonies
2. Increase maintenance cost hightech ships
3. ...

< Message edited by Robocrab -- 2/10/2012 2:58:23 PM >

(in reply to solops)
Post #: 30
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