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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Let me know if i understood...

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Let me know if i understood... - 2/8/2012 12:12:40 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

Hi guys

Ok, i made some tests about how the CAP works.

If i have 200 fighters based on base "X"
In this base X i have 1,000,000 supplies, 500 aviation support, several base forces with 10x CPS-1 Radars, 1 Air HQ with top leader (Halsey)

I set these fighters at 0 hex range and escort with 50% CAP.
No escort mission is performed (it's a sandbox scenario).

The base "X" gets attacked by an enemy's air strike

the combat report, no matter how many times i try, always shows this result:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on "X" , at x,y

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 150
Ki-84r Frank x 100

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 100
.........etc etc...

Always 100 fighters are "possibly" involved...so to day exactly those fighters included in the 50% of CAP....ALWAYS

I was always told that, the remaining 50% of those fighters, which were able to perform an escort mission (escort with 50% CAP), if no escort mission was to be performed, were able to join their comrades in the CAP mission... It seems to me that i've always been wrong...

Can you confirm this? So to say: planes not included in the CAP percentage WILL NEVER take off to meet the incoming enemy, even if no other mission is performed (say Escort, Sweep, etc...)

Thx in advance

GJ

Post #: 1

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/8/2012 12:22:33 PM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

Good observation and tests. I thought the same as you did.

Does this coincide with the combat animation, its tedious, I know but sometimes to
get a real result you have to tick off single planes from the animations?
Because I always am very careful to take any number shown in the combat report file
for granted.

An explanation would be that the CR only lists planes specifically assigned to CAP/LRCAP mission
in the area, and this again does not tell anything about the number of planes that actually flew.
I highly suspect this is the case.

You could try to increase detection range to increase time to target and so enable more planes to
react. What was your achieved max value there?

_____________________________

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 2

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/8/2012 12:24:41 PM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

You could try a negative test as well, e.g. set CAP to 30% and see if the numbers drop accordingly.

_____________________________

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 3

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/8/2012 1:16:07 PM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

And apart from anything - to reseed the random number generator in the old days you needed to restart the game exe ... Not sure if it was true or not but that is what I always heard & am not sure if it is true for AE either.

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 4

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/8/2012 3:35:33 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

And apart from anything - to reseed the random number generator in the old days you needed to restart the game exe ... Not sure if it was true or not but that is what I always heard & am not sure if it is true for AE either.

My understanding agrees with that. You need to do something that changes "stuff". Maybe somewhere far away on the map you can give a few orders to units and see if that changes the randomness for those air combats?

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 5

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/8/2012 4:35:16 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Hi guys

Ok, i made some tests about how the CAP works.

If i have 200 fighters based on base "X"
In this base X i have 1,000,000 supplies, 500 aviation support, several base forces with 10x CPS-1 Radars, 1 Air HQ with top leader (Halsey)

I set these fighters at 0 hex range and escort with 50% CAP.
No escort mission is performed (it's a sandbox scenario).

The base "X" gets attacked by an enemy's air strike

the combat report, no matter how many times i try, always shows this result:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on "X" , at x,y

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 150
Ki-84r Frank x 100

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 100
.........etc etc...

Always 100 fighters are "possibly" involved...so to day exactly those fighters included in the 50% of CAP....ALWAYS

I was always told that, the remaining 50% of those fighters, which were able to perform an escort mission (escort with 50% CAP), if no escort mission was to be performed, were able to join their comrades in the CAP mission... It seems to me that i've always been wrong...

Can you confirm this? So to say: planes not included in the CAP percentage WILL NEVER take off to meet the incoming enemy, even if no other mission is performed (say Escort, Sweep, etc...)

Thx in advance

GJ

you know that running the same turn again and again without changing something will always give you the same result? Just to make sure.

And I was thinking the same about the rest of fighters being available that are not directly set to Cap. Your test really surprises me because I have seen my carriers have far more fighters on Cap that they actually had fighters set to Cap so IMO what we think to know is exactly what happens. Your tests seem to show a different picture though.

I got no clue but if it really turns out to be the way you described it then this changes pretty much everything in my plannings.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 2/8/2012 4:38:09 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 6

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/8/2012 7:40:56 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

Ok, made some more tests....very very strange results.

same settings. Now with 198 Helens escorted by 150 Franks

First run:

1 single group composed of 200 defending fighters on escort, 50% CAP, 0 Range, 15k alt.

Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 98
Ki-84r Frank x 100

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 200

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 57 destroyed, 10 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 41 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed, 56 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 14 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 7 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 9 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 7 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 5 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 2 destroyed on ground

Allied ground losses:
36 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 27

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
6 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 100 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes

So with 200 fighters on 50% CAP the code works as we all thinks it should...1/3 of the 50% is airborne, 2/3 of the 50% on standby and the rest of the other 50% (those devoted to escort) are scrambling.
Notice that 0 fighters are being recalled so noone is so to say "out of position" (this is due to 0 hex range as we will see....)

SECOND TEST

2 groups of 200 fighters each (total 400 fighters). Same settings: Escort with 50% CAP, 0 hex range, 15k feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 196
Ki-84r Frank x 150

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 300

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 26 destroyed, 7 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 12 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 184 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 47 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 17 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 23 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 13 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 56 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied ground losses:
111 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 15 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled

Airbase hits 28
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 48

Aircraft Attacking:
32 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
40 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
43 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
41 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 100 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes

So what happens now? one group scrambles the remaining 50% of its fighters, while the other one doesn't...
Note again that not a single fighter is being recalled

Let's try it again...
(and yes, i changed something - altitude of one group)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 196
Ki-84r Frank x 150

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 300

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 24 destroyed, 6 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 10 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 133 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 45 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 48 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 16 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 8 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 15 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 3 destroyed on ground

Allied ground losses:
90 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Airbase hits 48
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 86

Aircraft Attacking:
37 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
34 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
43 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
46 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 100 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes

...so 300 fighters is the maximum number of fighters that can be joining the combat??...i don't believe so... let's go on

Another try

3 groups composed of 200 fighters each (600 totals). Alt 15k, 0 range, escort and 50% CAP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 196
Ki-84r Frank x 150

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 400

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 21 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 17 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed, 150 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 49 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 44 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 14 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 8 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 20 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 3 destroyed on ground

Allied ground losses:
89 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 46
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 108

Aircraft Attacking:
44 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
39 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
42 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
40 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 100 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes

So what? now out of 600 fighters 400 seems to be the limit number?...one group scrambles everything, while the other two groups use only the 50% fighters initially devoted to CAP mission, leaving in hangars the other 50%...

Ok, another try... 4 grouops of 200 fighters each (800 totals)...same settings...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 196
Ki-84r Frank x 150

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 400

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 9 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 23 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed, 202 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 65 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 63 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 19 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 10 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 17 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 4 destroyed on ground

Allied ground losses:
83 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Airbase hits 53
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 89

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
49 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
49 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
49 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes

So the 400 limit number seems to remain, despite having added a group with 200 fighters... so now only the planes devoted to CAP were actually able to partecipate. Not a single scrambling fighter...

Ok...let's try with 100% CAP, 4 groups of 200 fighters each...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 98
Ki-84r Frank x 150

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 800

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 18 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 31 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed, 12 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 9 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 13 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 29 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 5 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 11 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied ground losses:
52 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Airbase hits 16
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 34

Aircraft Attacking:
49 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
47 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
84 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
78 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
66 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
70 planes vectored on to bombers

So now all of them partecipate....

(note that the result doesn't change...the bombers always get through...)

Ok...another run... 5 groups...200 fighters each....1000 fighters in total... 50% CAP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 117 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 196
Ki-84r Frank x 150

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 500

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 5 destroyed, 11 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 28 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 167 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 65 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 74 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 6 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 10 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 20 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 25 destroyed on ground

Allied ground losses:
81 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 54
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 118

Aircraft Attacking:
49 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
43 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
46 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
49 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
20 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
17 planes vectored on to bombers

...and again... not a single fighter is scrambled...so the remaining 500 fighters (100 in each group) remain in the hangars...

mmm...let's try with 1000 fighters on LRCAP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 98
Ki-84r Frank x 150

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 1000

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 58 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 60 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed
B-29B Superfort: 7 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 36 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 5 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 6 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 2 destroyed on ground

Allied ground losses:
52 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 25
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 34

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
144 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
128 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
136 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 42000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
114 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
104 planes vectored on to bombers

So now with CAP at 100% all the planes managed to get in the air...

So what do we learn?
As far as i can tell fighters may scramble only up untill a certain number limit...above that number only the planes actually set on CAP mission are going to get in the air...

Now, look at this...

Same settings of the first attempt (1 group of 200 fighters on 50% CAP BUT with hex range 1...)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 98
Ki-84r Frank x 100

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 200

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 35 destroyed, 7 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 2 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 22 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed, 24 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 8 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 9 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 4 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 5 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied ground losses:
23 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 13

Aircraft Attacking:
21 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
23 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (4 airborne, 67 on standby, 100 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 25 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 98
Ki-84r Frank x 50

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 186

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 44 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 12 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 3 destroyed, 13 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 2 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 4 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 3 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 1 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 3 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied ground losses:
18 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 9

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
15 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 56 scrambling)
92 plane(s) not yet engaged, 20 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 62 minutes
61 planes vectored on to bombers

With the 1 hex range a lot of planes get caught "out of position" and are recalled....

(tested several times always with the same result)...

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 7

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/8/2012 8:09:58 PM

TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum

Posts: 312
Joined: 1/12/2010
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If you increase the range of the unit, wouldn't some of the CAP "leak" out of the hex and into the surrounding hexes? Hence being "out of position".

I'm pretty sure if you (as Japan) sent a sweep or a bombing mission to one of the hexes next to Hakodate that you would encounter a small number of Allied fighters.

That could be why you see those recalled aircraft.

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 8

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/8/2012 10:50:01 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

If you increase the range of the unit, wouldn't some of the CAP "leak" out of the hex and into the surrounding hexes? Hence being "out of position".

I'm pretty sure if you (as Japan) sent a sweep or a bombing mission to one of the hexes next to Hakodate that you would encounter a small number of Allied fighters.

That could be why you see those recalled aircraft.

I know i know, but i thought that a range bigger than 0 meant that fighters COULD be directed to another hex in range...not that they were FOR SURE over that other hex...

(in reply to TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum)

Post #: 9

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/8/2012 10:59:25 PM

TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum

Posts: 312
Joined: 1/12/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

If you increase the range of the unit, wouldn't some of the CAP "leak" out of the hex and into the surrounding hexes? Hence being "out of position".

I'm pretty sure if you (as Japan) sent a sweep or a bombing mission to one of the hexes next to Hakodate that you would encounter a small number of Allied fighters.

That could be why you see those recalled aircraft.

I know i know, but i thought that a range bigger than 0 meant that fighters COULD be directed to another hex in range...not that they were FOR SURE over that other hex...

Your tests would indicate otherwise.

In fact your tests seem to indicate two things:

1. That units on CAP <100% will scramble aircraft at rest only up until a certain limit.

2. That units on CAP with a range greater than 0 have a great chance of being caught "out of position".

To confirm #2, you need to launch attacks at the hexes that are neighboring Hakodate as I previously suggested, this would allow you to figure out the number of fighters that is patrolling outside Hakodate at a given time.

I'd also continue to mess with your range settings and see if you can screw the results up even more. Ranges 2-4 may show even more differing results.

< Message edited by TheLoneGunman -- 2/8/2012 11:57:43 PM >

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 10

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/8/2012 11:52:52 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

If you increase the range of the unit, wouldn't some of the CAP "leak" out of the hex and into the surrounding hexes? Hence being "out of position".

I'm pretty sure if you (as Japan) sent a sweep or a bombing mission to one of the hexes next to Hakodate that you would encounter a small number of Allied fighters.

That could be why you see those recalled aircraft.

I know i know, but i thought that a range bigger than 0 meant that fighters COULD be directed to another hex in range...not that they were FOR SURE over that other hex...

Your tests would indicate otherwise.

In fact your tests seem to indicate two things:

1. That units on CAP >100% will scramble aircraft at rest only up until a certain limit.

2. That units on CAP with a range greater than 0 have a great chance of being caught "out of position".

To confirm #2, you need to launch attacks at the hexes that are neighboring Hakodate as I previously suggested, this would allow you to figure out the number of fighters that is patrolling outside Hakodate at a given time.

I'd also continue to mess with your range settings and see if you can screw the results up even more. Ranges 2-4 may show even more differing results.

Yes.
I think the number 1. is the most surprising discovery...never thought or heard that there was a fixed limit for the number of scrambling plane...

(in reply to TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum)

Post #: 11

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 2:03:49 AM

Dan Nichols

Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
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GreyJoy, your tests are very depressing.

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 12

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 6:06:55 AM

hkbhsi

Posts: 96
Joined: 4/22/2007
From: Rome, Italy
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The strange thing about your test is that you achieved the best result with less fighters. In the first test with 200 planes you destroyed a bunch of attackers, the more you added the less you killed.

(in reply to Dan Nichols)

Post #: 13

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 7:58:06 AM

Dobey455

Posts: 445
Joined: 12/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

The strange thing about your test is that you achieved the best result with less fighters. In the first test with 200 planes you destroyed a bunch of attackers, the more you added the less you killed.

To be honest I really DO hope that's the case. I would like to see the RL "law of diminishing returns" reflected in game results and hopefully somewhat discouraging the ever popular "Death Star" tactics where players strive to concerntrate their entrie force into a single hex \ base.

(in reply to hkbhsi)

Post #: 14

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 8:11:09 AM

Gunner98

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline

Also the damage is less when you have fighters with range being recalled. Maybe there is an issue of too many AC in the CAP stack - what if you down scaled the test to using 10s vice 100s a different result might happen.

Interesting

B

(in reply to hkbhsi)

Post #: 15

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 8:11:46 AM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

GreyJoy, your tests are very depressing.

unfortunately. Being not the best friend of the air model it seems I even was too positive about it. So far I have been thinking it doesn't work when huge numbers are involved but the huge seems to start at something like 200 already.

_____________________________

(in reply to Dan Nichols)

Post #: 16

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 8:13:24 AM

Puhis

Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

The strange thing about your test is that you achieved the best result with less fighters. In the first test with 200 planes you destroyed a bunch of attackers, the more you added the less you killed.

To be honest I really DO hope that's the case. I would like to see the RL "law of diminishing returns" reflected in game results and hopefully somewhat discouraging the ever popular "Death Star" tactics where players strive to concerntrate their entrie force into a single hex \ base.

+1

I'm not saying there's no issues, but if players are forced to spread their forces instead of huge stacks, it can't be all bad...

(in reply to Dobey455)

Post #: 17

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 9:40:59 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

The strange thing about your test is that you achieved the best result with less fighters. In the first test with 200 planes you destroyed a bunch of attackers, the more you added the less you killed.

To be honest I really DO hope that's the case. I would like to see the RL "law of diminishing returns" reflected in game results and hopefully somewhat discouraging the ever popular "Death Star" tactics where players strive to concerntrate their entrie force into a single hex \ base.

+1

I'm not saying there's no issues, but if players are forced to spread their forces instead of huge stacks, it can't be all bad...

I see it in a similar way, in fact its exactly these results which should force the player to prefer dipersal.

_____________________________

(in reply to Puhis)

Post #: 18

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 10:33:19 AM

beppi

Posts: 382
Joined: 3/11/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

I remembered that it was already stated my michaelm in the tech forum that arrival of CAP also counts as a round which is subtracted from the 200(300) rounds limit.

Direct quote:
"A round is counted when the flights engage each other, or a delayed CAP arrives. "

check out the tech forum.

So arrival of planes (XX on standby) reduces the possible combat rounds further. An interesting test would be the effect of
200 planes of the same type on CAP against 200 planes of the same type in very small groups (2-3) planes against 200 planes of the same type in small groups on different altitude versus 200 planes of as many different types as possible (but with the same stats modded stats).

For myself i suspected that the grouping of planes (which battles another in a combat round and has a size from 1-8) depends at least on plane type. Possible even on altitude and/or group. That would leave the possibility that a lot of different plane types /altitude/groups even reduce the effect of CAP. I am pretty sure that a lot of different plane types have a effect (I do not have the time right now to do much more testing to 100% confirm that as my GF is already killing me for too much WITPAE in my PBEM).

< Message edited by beppi -- 2/9/2012 10:51:18 AM >

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 19

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 10:41:09 AM

beppi

Posts: 382
Joined: 3/11/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

The strange thing about your test is that you achieved the best result with less fighters. In the first test with 200 planes you destroyed a bunch of attackers, the more you added the less you killed.

To be honest I really DO hope that's the case. I would like to see the RL "law of diminishing returns" reflected in game results and hopefully somewhat discouraging the ever popular "Death Star" tactics where players strive to concerntrate their entrie force into a single hex \ base.

Problem is that there are some "reasons" which almost force an death star tactic.

1.) Multiple strikes during a combat phase. Each strike reduces the effective CAP. If you have only 200 planes on cap but face 5 100 planes strike the last strikes will only face a very very low number of remaining cap. To compensate you usually try to have a cap as big as possible to have as much planes as possible remaining for the last strikes. And i personally have faced 10 strikes during the AM phase and even with 1000 planes CAP the last strikes faced a very small CAP.

2.) Sometimes you cannot spread you assets. If you have to do a long range landing on a heavy defended position you only have a few spots to do. You will face a multiple enemy bases against you. Small CAP means your are quite dead.

3.) Big Strike > Small Strike && Small Cap > Big CAP. If you ignore the problems mentioned in point 1 a small CAP is better than a big one. Unfortunately currently the point 1 forces you to have a big cap. In addition there were a lot of reason why everyone tried to optimize the linkup of strikes. Big strikes are much more effective than small ones.

4.) Other crucial spots. Usually you only have 1 or 2 good naval bases to bring in the masses of supply you need lategame. You need multiple surface TFs to protect the base against naval raiding and sometimes big convoys will arrive there. If you only have 200 planes on CAP you will have a problem to protect anything.

5.) Protection of the bases and range problems. If you split you attacking units on 10 or 15 bases some will not be in range and you still have a problem to protect them. Again if you take Rule #1 into account you need quite a lot of planes to first have a cap of 200 - 300 planes second have a 100 planes to have some escorts. Then you have a lot of repairing planes. All that put together leaves you with a problem with too much bases with only small amounts of planes there.

Mainly that are the reasons why everyone tried to get a CAP as big as possible and a strike size as big as possible with the current engine. I still hope there will be some changes (splitting up of incoming strikes, changes how CAP behaves with multiple attacks) in the engine. There are some problems which especially occur late game. But just to "split" your assets more will achieve not a much.

< Message edited by beppi -- 2/9/2012 10:48:44 AM >

(in reply to Dobey455)

Post #: 20

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 10:53:36 AM

Puhis

Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: beppi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

The strange thing about your test is that you achieved the best result with less fighters. In the first test with 200 planes you destroyed a bunch of attackers, the more you added the less you killed.

To be honest I really DO hope that's the case. I would like to see the RL "law of diminishing returns" reflected in game results and hopefully somewhat discouraging the ever popular "Death Star" tactics where players strive to concerntrate their entrie force into a single hex \ base.

Problem is that there are some "reasons" which almost force an death star tactic.

1.) Multiple strikes during a combat phase. Each strike reduces the effective CAP. If you have only 200 planes on cap but face 5 100 planes strike the last strikes will only face a very very low number of remaining cap. To compensate you usually try to have a cap as big as possible. To have as much planes as possible remaining for the last strikes. And i personally have faced 10 strikes during the AM phase and even with 1000 planes CAP the last strikes faced a very small CAP.

You assume every strike is going to hit one single hex. If you spread your forces, it's probable that bombers are going to strike several targets.

Diversion forces does work, you know.

quote:

2.) Sometimes you cannot spread you assets. If you have to do a long range landing on a heavy defended position you only have a few spots to do. You will face a multiple enemy bases against you. Small CAP means your are quite dead.

Well, war is hell.

Diversion forces does work in this situation too...

(in reply to beppi)

Post #: 21

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 10:58:25 AM

Miller

Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline

The funny thing about this for me is that I can't really recall a problem like this in my previous game. It ended in mid 45, and was one of the first (if not THE first) games to get to that stage since the game was released.

I was the Japs, and for the most part my late war strikes, even the larger ones got very chewed up by Allied CAP. This in the main was due to poor co-ordination.........very rarely did I get strikes of 200+ a/c to go in at the same time. Often it was like:

10 fighters vs CAP
20 fighters + 40 bombers vs CAP
40 fighters + 25 bombers vs CAP
20 unescorted bombers vs CAP
25 fighters + 15 bombers vs CAP
etc
etc

Perhaps all those support units and large airfields in Japan are borking the system in some way?

(in reply to beppi)

Post #: 22

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 11:05:57 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

The funny thing about this for me is that I can't really recall a problem like this in my previous game. It ended in mid 45, and was one of the first (if not THE first) games to get to that stage since the game was released.

I was the Japs, and for the most part my late war strikes, even the larger ones got very chewed up by Allied CAP. This in the main was due to poor co-ordination.........very rarely did I get strikes of 200+ a/c to go in at the same time. Often it was like:

10 fighters vs CAP
20 fighters + 40 bombers vs CAP
40 fighters + 25 bombers vs CAP
20 unescorted bombers vs CAP
25 fighters + 15 bombers vs CAP
etc
etc

Perhaps all those support units and large airfields in Japan are borking the system in some way?

Maybe, was there any modification to changes with impact on coordination? The list of michaelm�s beta
is so long that it is difficult to evaluate if there was a change that impacts this aspect...

My feeling is no, but you can never be sure.

_____________________________

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 23

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 11:10:19 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

Hmmm....

quote:

123. Wrong altitude being used sometimes, impacting raid, co-ordination and low level
intercepts.

_____________________________

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 24

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 11:11:42 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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Excuse me guys, but these results say to me that it's not a matter of "overstacking"...

1st test: 50 Betties + 51 Franks (from Tokyo) against an Amphib TF at Hakodate. At Hakodate is based a fighter group composed of the usual 200 P-47s with 80 experience.

Settings: incoming strike at 6,000
P-47s set to Escort, 50% CAP, 50% Rest, 15k feet, range 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Hakodate at 119,53

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 54 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M3a Betty x 50
Ki-84a Frank x 51

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 50

...50%CAP + 50% rest should mean fighters available for CAP duties...

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M3a Betty: 13 destroyed, 31 damaged
G4M3a Betty: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84a Frank: 19 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVE Chenango, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
BB Arkansas, Torpedo hits 1
APA William P. Biddle
CVE Sangamon, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
APA Heywood, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA Indianapolis

Aircraft Attacking:
43 x G4M3a Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet nearly all the bombers got through...
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
2 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 10000 feet *

CAP engaged:
52nd Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (16 airborne, 34 on standby, 0 scrambling

16 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 42000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes

Ammo storage explosion on CVE Chenango
Ammo storage explosion on CVE Sangamon
Ammo storage explosion on CVE Sangamon
Banzai! - Hidaka C. in a G4M3a Betty is willing to die for the Emperor

2nd Test.

Same as usual with the P-47s on escort + 50% CAP (0% rest), alt 15k, range 0

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Hakodate at 119,53

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M3a Betty x 50
Ki-84a Frank x 51

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 100

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M3a Betty: 7 destroyed, 17 damaged
G4M3a Betty: 2 destroyed by flak
Ki-84a Frank: 25 destroyed

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina, Torpedo hits 1
BB Arkansas, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
CA Indianapolis
APA Zeilin, Torpedo hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
37 x G4M3a Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
52nd Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
33 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 42000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes

3rd test

P-47s on 100% CAP, 15k, 0 range

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Hakodate at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 76 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M3a Betty x 50
Ki-84a Frank x 51

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 200

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M3a Betty: 8 destroyed, 16 damaged
G4M3a Betty: 2 destroyed by flak
Ki-84a Frank: 24 destroyed

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina, Torpedo hits 4, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
APA John Penn
APA American Legion, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
APA Henry T. Allen
APA Harry Lee, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
CA Indianapolis

Aircraft Attacking:
47 x G4M3a Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet ...again, most of the bombers got to the target unmolested.-..
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
52nd Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
66 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 42000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
48 planes vectored on to bombers

Banzai! - Agawa T. in a G4M3a Betty is willing to die for the Emperor
Inoue N. gives his life for the Emperor by ramming BB North Carolina
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring BB North Carolina
Banzai! - Ishimori H. in a G4M3a Betty is willing to die for the Emperor
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring APA American Legion
Banzai! - Miyajima B. in a G4M3a Betty is willing to die for the Emperor

....so even with small numbers (50+50 attacking planes against a max number of 200 defending fighters) the result is always the same: put a few escort and the bombers will hit their target...and hit hard!

I don't know if i'm doing something wrong in placing my CAP...i'd like to be supported by some one else doing some tests to see if it's me or the code...

In my tests however CAP doesn't work as i thought it should...no matter the numbers...1000 defending fighters are ineffective exactly like 50....

(in reply to Puhis)

Post #: 25

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 11:17:59 AM

beppi

Posts: 382
Joined: 3/11/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

quote:

ORIGINAL: beppi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

The strange thing about your test is that you achieved the best result with less fighters. In the first test with 200 planes you destroyed a bunch of attackers, the more you added the less you killed.

To be honest I really DO hope that's the case. I would like to see the RL "law of diminishing returns" reflected in game results and hopefully somewhat discouraging the ever popular "Death Star" tactics where players strive to concerntrate their entrie force into a single hex \ base.

Problem is that there are some "reasons" which almost force an death star tactic.

1.) Multiple strikes during a combat phase. Each strike reduces the effective CAP. If you have only 200 planes on cap but face 5 100 planes strike the last strikes will only face a very very low number of remaining cap. To compensate you usually try to have a cap as big as possible. To have as much planes as possible remaining for the last strikes. And i personally have faced 10 strikes during the AM phase and even with 1000 planes CAP the last strikes faced a very small CAP.

You assume every strike is going to hit one single hex. If you spread your forces, it's probable that bombers are going to strike several targets.

Diversion forces does work, you know.

And you assume that there is no way to force a strike into a single hex. If you want to strike an airbase you just target it. If you use range limitation settings you can pretty much target specific naval hexes too. Thats basically the 1&1 of PBEM games.

Diversion of forces only leads only to more losses. And that is even quite realistic. Most RL combat during WWII depended on a concentration of forces. Most invasions and even most ground combat. Diversion does not help, and you know it

quote:

quote:

2.) Sometimes you cannot spread you assets. If you have to do a long range landing on a heavy defended position you only have a few spots to do. You will face a multiple enemy bases against you. Small CAP means your are quite dead.

Well, war is hell.

Diversion forces does work in this situation too...

Sure sure, war is hell. But some lets say "artificial limitations in combat" is hell too. And again diversion will not help here too. Big bases need big invasions or you fail by ill preparations. A artificial diversion does not help here either. Especially as the defending side can just concentrate its forces and destroy one diversion after another.

< Message edited by beppi -- 2/9/2012 11:20:24 AM >

(in reply to Puhis)

Post #: 26

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 11:19:10 AM

ADB123

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
Status: offline

quote:

....so even with small numbers (50+50 attacking planes against a max number of 200 defending fighters) the result is always the same: put a few escort and the bombers will hit their target...and hit hard!

I don't know if i'm doing something wrong in placing my CAP...i'd like to be supported by some one else doing some tests to see if it's me or the code...

In my tests however CAP doesn't work as i thought it should...no matter the numbers...1000 defending fighters are ineffective exactly like 50....

It's not you, it's the Game.

We've all seen this.

That deliberate design decision to allow bombers to get through is a failure.

You've demonstrated it very nicely in your tests, and the rest of us have seen it repeatedly in our games.

This is also why 4Es seem so invulnerable in the early stages of a campaign - it has nothing particular to do with the 4Es but instead is just the Air Engine kicking in.

Now, the big question is - can anyone come up with a way around the problem?

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 27

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 11:19:19 AM

Puhis

Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline

Try run some test with very low number of escorts, or no escorts at all.

Also, try to set fighters flying LRCAP over ships instead of CAP.

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 28

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 11:30:52 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

Rerun the test with layered CAP from 6k-12k. I�d expect a better result then.

With CAP at 15k and Betties at 6k you are putting the escorts right between the CAP and the bombers.

I always try to at least have some layers very close to the incoming alt of the strike.

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(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 29

RE: Let me know if i understood... - 2/9/2012 11:47:29 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

GreyJoy, if you want to provide the save of your testscenario I try to find the time
to play around with it a bit. I cannot guarantee today, and I will not use the modified
.exe you are using but the beta r6 instead we are using for PBEM, but I guess this makes
sense anyway.

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(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 30