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own HQ Displacement - 1/29/2012 4:23:20 AM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 222
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline 		Hi
I Sometimes have a HQ in a stack with a combat unit and adjacent to the enemy, I move the combat unit and sometime later notice my HQ has been displaced. This can be a big problem if Ive planned for the combat unit to have access to its support units in an ensuing battle.

When the ~ key is activated an orangey/tan coloured lines links a selected combat unit to its HQ. Same colour for the link from a HQ to its higher HQ.

Could we change the link colour from a HQ to higher HQ to red or even better flashing red?

This will flag to me that the stack adjacent to the enemy that contains the combat unit I am about to move contains a HQ and beware.

Best Regards Chuck.
Post #: 1
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/29/2012 8:46:32 AM   
PKH

 

Posts: 242
Joined: 11/17/2011
Status: offline 		How about we have an option to turn off the special movement rules for my HQ units ? It's a complete pain in the ass. If I want to put my HQ units at risk it should be my choice.

(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 2
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/29/2012 9:12:45 AM   
Blubel

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 6/22/2011
Status: offline 		I think the game should generate a warnig message before moveing the last combat unit out of a stack with an HQ.

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Post #: 3
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/29/2012 9:48:21 AM   
AFV


Posts: 435
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		This was discussed ad nausem in a prior thread. Oddly enough, several people defended how the game currently handles this (vehemently, in fact, to the point you would have thought we had insulted their mom!). I for one think a warning popup would be nice- but I think the amount of programming vs the amount of gain makes it a no-go.

(in reply to Blubel)
Post #: 4
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/29/2012 9:54:50 AM   
delatbabel


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blubel

I think the game should generate a warnig message before moveing the last combat unit out of a stack with an HQ.


+1


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Post #: 5
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/29/2012 6:55:53 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		I think you should pay attention to what you're doing.

Move the HQ *first*.

End of problem.

(in reply to delatbabel)
Post #: 6
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/30/2012 12:46:38 AM   
Shupov


Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		+1 I have made the same suggestion in another thread.

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Post #: 7
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/30/2012 3:37:41 AM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I think you should pay attention to what you're doing.

Move the HQ *first*.

End of problem.

There's never any reason why you would want to move the HQ second though, so it seems perfectly reasonable for the game to tell you that this is an unambiguously bad move to make.

If you're familiar with Magic the Gathering, the PC conversion just warned me that "It's often a good idea to play a land every turn that it's available. Are you sure you want to end your turn? Y/N". And that's for something that you even want to deliberately do sometimes. How much more for an action that you would never want to do, period?

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 8
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/30/2012 4:07:17 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I think you should pay attention to what you're doing.

Move the HQ *first*.

End of problem.

There's never any reason why you would want to move the HQ second though, so it seems perfectly reasonable for the game to tell you that this is an unambiguously bad move to make.

If you're familiar with Magic the Gathering, the PC conversion just warned me that "It's often a good idea to play a land every turn that it's available. Are you sure you want to end your turn? Y/N". And that's for something that you even want to deliberately do sometimes. How much more for an action that you would never want to do, period?


And the Fritz chess series tells you about what is a silly move in Coach mode. But this game isn't either one.

As you said, there is never any reason to want to move the HQ second. So why do it then?


15.10. Displacement Moves
A displacement move is a special type of movement by non-phasing combat units that have been routed or zero CV units that find themselves adjacent to an enemy combat unit.

There are several conditions that cause a unit to make a displacement move:

A combat unit routs following a retreat result after combat

A unit with zero CV finds itself adjacent to an enemy unit while not stacked with a friendly, non-depleted combat unit. This would include HQ units, on-map construction support unit, or a depleted or routed combat unit

In some cases when a unit with a zero CV is part of a stack forced to retreat due to combat.

Move the HQ first, there is no problem. If one didn't read the manual, then the fault lies with..... who?

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 1/30/2012 4:13:45 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/30/2012 4:50:16 AM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
As you said, there is never any reason to want to move the HQ second. So why do it then?

It's not like the ones advocating this change (myself included) are trying to move the HQ second deliberately, or that we want an HQ-second move to be an acceptable one. The idea is to prevent the player from doing it by accident.

quote:


In some cases when a unit with a zero CV is part of a stack forced to retreat due to combat.

These cases come up when your stack is attacked defensively, and you have no control over that.

quote:


Move the HQ first, there is no problem. If one didn't read the manual, then the fault lies with..... who?

Just because you're aware of the rule doesn't mean you're immune from forgetting that it's there. In fact, such a warning would be another way to teach a player of the rule who otherwise might not know about it. Right now, we have the ruling buried in the manual, and a sticky in the War Room. If a newcomer misses those, he's going to wonder why his HQs are moving off by themselves.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 10
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/30/2012 4:59:55 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		If they think it's worth doing, it will happen.

But till then, you'll just have to remember to move it first.

How far do you want to go? A pop up for each and every unit? (You could attach Sus to this. You could merge this. Do you want to keep this FZ next to the enemy? OKH/STAVKA has SUs attached to it. Want to move any? This air unit has low morale/numbers. Want to put it in the NR. This unit is unready, do you really want to move it to the front? Adnauseum.)

This isn't a game for a casual player afterall.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 1/30/2012 5:18:18 AM >

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 11
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/30/2012 7:40:29 AM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 222
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline 		Hi Aurelian
I would like to go this far.
"change the link colour from a HQ to higher HQ to red "
This would be I imagine an simple change programatically and make it harder to accidentally move that combat unit and get the accidental displacement.
sound good to you?

< Message edited by chuckles -- 1/30/2012 7:47:14 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/30/2012 7:41:17 AM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 222
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline 		sorry repeat post

< Message edited by chuckles -- 1/30/2012 7:42:56 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/30/2012 8:26:46 AM   
AFV


Posts: 435
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

If they think it's worth doing, it will happen.

But till then, you'll just have to remember to move it first.

How far do you want to go? A pop up for each and every unit? (You could attach Sus to this. You could merge this. Do you want to keep this FZ next to the enemy? OKH/STAVKA has SUs attached to it. Want to move any? This air unit has low morale/numbers. Want to put it in the NR. This unit is unready, do you really want to move it to the front? Adnauseum.)

This isn't a game for a casual player afterall.


The suggestion was just for this one particular issue for this one particular unit. You can propose ridiculous things, and try to associate it with this in an attempt to make this look ridiculous too, but it does not make your point.

So, to be clear, at least for me, as far as I would want it to go is only to warn the player when a move would leave a HQ unit next to an enemy combat unit. I do not want pop ups for each and every unit, for attaching SUs, for air units with low morale or units that are unready. Or any other ridiculous thing you can think of. Just this one thing, as the thread title indicates.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 14
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/30/2012 4:27:53 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

If they think it's worth doing, it will happen.

But till then, you'll just have to remember to move it first.

How far do you want to go? A pop up for each and every unit? (You could attach Sus to this. You could merge this. Do you want to keep this FZ next to the enemy? OKH/STAVKA has SUs attached to it. Want to move any? This air unit has low morale/numbers. Want to put it in the NR. This unit is unready, do you really want to move it to the front? Adnauseum.)

This isn't a game for a casual player afterall.


The suggestion was just for this one particular issue for this one particular unit. You can propose ridiculous things, and try to associate it with this in an attempt to make this look ridiculous too, but it does not make your point.

So, to be clear, at least for me, as far as I would want it to go is only to warn the player when a move would leave a HQ unit next to an enemy combat unit. I do not want pop ups for each and every unit, for attaching SUs, for air units with low morale or units that are unready. Or any other ridiculous thing you can think of. Just this one thing, as the thread title indicates.



Uh huh. If a player needs his/her hand held for one issue, it stands to reason that they would need it for more things that are "buried in the manual". And if one is ridiculous, then so are the others.

Or are you saying that a player who forgets one thing, something that has an immdeiate consequence, is incapable of forgetting anything else.

If so, then one doesn't need any hand holding. Rather learn the fine art of paying attention.

If not, then one needs extensive hand holding.

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 15
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/30/2012 5:49:40 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		If you happen to click the wrong X and hit the one that exits the game, the program will ask you if you really want to exit the game. That is reasonable, as you might otherwise accidentaly lose half a turn of work just because you made a mistake. Aurelian, would you want this confirmation removed on the grounds that everyone knows what happens when they click the X, so they will have to take the consequences?

I think the HQ-left-alone is exactly the same thing. A warning dialog would be user friendly and convenient.

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Post #: 16
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/30/2012 6:06:08 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		As much as I like this game, there's just no other way of putting it...friendly, involuntary and automatic, HQ displacement during phasing player's turn is just piss-poor UI design. It's rather a pet-peeve of mine, to be honest.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 17
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/31/2012 12:08:36 AM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
How far do you want to go? A pop up for each and every unit? (You could attach Sus to this. You could merge this. Do you want to keep this FZ next to the enemy? OKH/STAVKA has SUs attached to it. Want to move any? This air unit has low morale/numbers. Want to put it in the NR. This unit is unready, do you really want to move it to the front? Adnauseum.)

The key difference between the HQ displacement issue and the slippery slope argument you're trying to present is that you never want to deliberately cause HQ displacement if you can avoid it.

In contrast, there are cases where attaching or not attaching SUs is okay, merging or not merging units is okay, having units attached to STAVKA is okay, forcing an air unit to keep working with low morale is okay and moving an unready unit to front line is something you really want to do.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 18
RE: own HQ Displacement - 1/31/2012 8:06:50 AM   
AFV


Posts: 435
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		Aurelian- I don't need my hand held because the rule is buried in the manual. Your logic might work with a 6 year old girl, but it really doesn't fly here.

Aurelian: As gredenko so adeptly pointed out, your argument is inherently flawed. You can continue to bury your head, and pretend that such a pop-up has never been done in the history of the world, and its simply unheard of, when in fact, its quite common with designs across all platforms (starting from the beginning, with DOS).

You can foolishly quote the rule, when in fact we are all aware of the rule. You can contend that if this was implemented, it would need to be done for every unit and every action in the game, which no one has suggested (except you). You can point out that if one simply does not leave a HQ unit next to a enemy combat unit, you don't need the warning- which with that logic carried out no warnings are needed anywhere for anything.

You need to bring something else to the table- perhaps like the coding would be too difficult and there are more important things in the game to fix - I could maybe agree to that. But the "just don't do it" argument is not compelling.

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 19
RE: own HQ Displacement - 2/8/2012 6:51:24 AM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 222
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline 		Does anyone want to actually comment on the change I suggested?

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 20
RE: own HQ Displacement - 2/8/2012 10:39:21 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		If this ever gets put into the game, I hope it's optional. I would hate the popups and almost never displace my own HQs.




< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 2/8/2012 10:40:23 AM >

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Post #: 21
RE: own HQ Displacement - 2/8/2012 10:56:29 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles
Does anyone want to actually comment on the change I suggested?


It's a reasonable request that has been repeated ever since the game first came out, playing should not be an obstacle course, it's the opponent we want to fight, not the GUI, in this century it should be a simple fix.


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Post #: 22
RE: own HQ Displacement - 2/8/2012 11:42:54 AM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
If this ever gets put into the game, I hope it's optional. I would hate the popups and almost never displace my own HQs.

Huh? Even if it wasn't optional, if you never displace your HQs anyway, you'd never see the pop-up anyway, so how would it matter?

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 23
RE: own HQ Displacement - 2/9/2012 6:17:51 AM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 222
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline 		Thanks for commenting Flaviusx, Rasputitsa and gradenko_2000

But you all miss the point entirely.
As I think did all the prevoius posters.

I am -not- suggesting a popup.

I am suggesting that when the "~" key is on and a HQ is in the selected stack, then a HQ to HQ link is -red-, rather than the same colur as the CU to HQ link, orange.

This is probably programatically and logically very simple to implement and would be a good way to flag the condition 'HQ unit in selected stack, own HQ displacement imminent' when your focused on the map.

Flashing red would probably be even better, but I think you'd soon start to remember the meaning of the red link anyway.

I would also suggest that anyone who doesnt like own HQ displacements read and comment.









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Post #: 24
RE: own HQ Displacement - 2/9/2012 7:40:24 AM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		I think that there should be sufficient warning to the player when he's about to commit HQ displacement on his own units, on his own turn. However that is achieved I think is really up to the devs, although your idea is as good as any.

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Post #: 25
RE: own HQ Displacement - 2/9/2012 9:04:06 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles
Thanks for commenting Flaviusx, Rasputitsa and gradenko_2000

But you all miss the point entirely.
As I think did all the prevoius posters.

I am -not- suggesting a popup.

I am suggesting that when the "~" key is on and a HQ is in the selected stack, then a HQ to HQ link is -red-, rather than the same colur as the CU to HQ link, orange.

This is probably programatically and logically very simple to implement and would be a good way to flag the condition 'HQ unit in selected stack, own HQ displacement imminent' when your focused on the map.

Flashing red would probably be even better, but I think you'd soon start to remember the meaning of the red link anyway.

I would also suggest that anyone who doesnt like own HQ displacements read and comment.

I don't care how it's done, as long as there is a warning. Pop-ups would work even if your HQ link is not selected, it could be self cancelling in 2 - 3 seconds and would not need any player input and no problem for those who don't make such a mistake, as they would never see it.


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

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Post #: 26
RE: own HQ Displacement - 2/9/2012 10:12:07 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

Alas, it wouldnt prevent the way the computer likes to retreat the Russian forward towards my lone HQ (and in a zoc) instead of back towards their supply...thereby displacing my HQ.

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Post #: 27
RE: own HQ Displacement - 2/10/2012 2:31:35 AM   
csarebel


Posts: 31
Joined: 4/25/2010
Status: offline 		I want some change. It isn't realistic. It is a design issue as much as anything. Just as you can surround an enemy unit in one turn then attack it, it will route out of the pocket because the turn is considered to happen simultaniously (spelling sucks). The units shouldn't displace until the end of the turn and there should be a pop up.

(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 28
RE: own HQ Displacement - 2/10/2012 5:09:36 AM   
Farfarer61

 

Posts: 713
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		Hard code the inability to accidentally rout HQs, or have it doen in an end trun segment if they aren't stacked with a comabt unit in a ZOC. I have deliberately relocated HQs taking the risks of leader death etc, rather than letting enmeny do it asI gain a turn of recoevery and can guide the relcation by stacking 2 units on unwatnted relocation towns. face it , upu NEVER want to accidentally relocate an HQ when you can do it volunarily for fre.

(in reply to csarebel)
Post #: 29
RE: own HQ Displacement - 2/10/2012 10:19:02 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky
Alas, it wouldnt prevent the way the computer likes to retreat the Russian forward towards my lone HQ (and in a zoc) instead of back towards their supply...thereby displacing my HQ.


It is not unreasonable that an undefended HQ should have to run (be displaced) from hoards of enemy troops, which might be escaping 'any which way' in the confusion of battle. Which means that it is a good policy to stack your HQs with other units for protection.

Having done that, the warning is needed before inadvertently moving the protecting unit away and leaving your HQ vulnerable. In real life if an HQ saw it's protecting units ordered to move, there would be howls of protest and the HQ would be packing up to move with them.

A simple self cancelling pop-up warning, timed to show for a few seconds only, is not much to ask for.

You will only ever see the pop-up if you are about to make a mistake, otherwise you will never see it.


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 30
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