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What am I doing wrong? - 2/10/2012 7:55:42 AM   
kaaskop

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 2/10/2012
Status: offline 		My air units are totally uneffective when attacking hard targets like tanks.

My solution is to forgot about direct attacks with airplanes and set them at intervention, which seems so much more effective.

But still, it bugs me. Most likely I am doing something wrong. I'm an old fan of Red Lightning and that's the reason I have TOAW. But, I am a big noob in regards of the rules of TOAW.

Scenario: Mortain 44

Attacking 3 panzer brigades with 191 P-47 Thunderbirds. Repeated this attack several times.

I got 0 tanks...

Now, something tells me this is wrong. How come 191 Thunderbirds are so ineffective? I've moved the german Panzer out in the open and they are not dugged in. It's afternoon, clear skies, total air supremacy for the allies and reasonable readiness for the P-47's.

Readiness P-47's:


Panzer stack with weather report on:


Detailed combat report Axis:


Detailed combat report Allies:


Air Briefing:


Situation briefing:
http://imgur.com/ATSqw

The Panzers should be ripe for slaughter. But TOAW just does not let me use my airpower to maul tanks into oblivion. I've never been able to use airpower for which it was intended for, with any scenario.

What am I doing wrong?

< Message edited by kaaskop -- 2/10/2012 8:30:36 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: What am I doing wrong? - 2/10/2012 8:46:20 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Kamerad,

the Luftwaffe and Airforce operations (I am allowed to mention my advisories...) are handled as good as it gets in TOAW.

First article I remember from the opening days of OPART - http://web.archive.org/web/20030401011159/http://www.militarygameronline.com/artofwar/strat_airsuper.asp

Some other stuff... http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/docs/strategy/Knowlton-strategy-guide.php

And a collection of stuff... http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2231803&mpage=1&key=�

An yes, using interdiction is more effective; remember... moving targets can be spotted easier than good camouflaged German tanks...

If you like a can run a test of Ju-87 PzJg or Hs-129 against a battalion of T-34 or Sherman tanks :)

Klink, Oberst

_____________________________

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Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to kaaskop)
Post #: 2
RE: What am I doing wrong? - 2/10/2012 9:13:37 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Here a quick test I did with my 48PK scenario... forgot to change the weather though; they managed to take out 1 x T-34 and 1 x T-70; not too bad in a direct attack.

Combat : Smite: 5th Tank Army 1st Tank Corps, 89.Tank.Brig, (anti-armor), attrition%= 0.
Combat : XLVIII.PzK weapons firing on 5th Tank Army T-34/76 (late).
ATCombat : Hs-129 current terrain/lighting/weather dependent accuracy: 30%.
ATCombat : T-34/76 (late) target cross section bias: 97%.
ATCombat : Hs-129 current effective accuracy vs. T-34/76 (late): 29%.
ATCombat : No hit on 5th Tank Army T-34/76 (late) by XLVIII.PzK Hs-129. (shot missed)
ATCombat : Hs-129 current terrain/lighting/weather dependent accuracy: 30%.
ATCombat : T-34/76 (late) target cross section bias: 97%.
ATCombat : Hs-129 current effective accuracy vs. T-34/76 (late): 29%.
ATCombat : Chance of penetration on T-34/76 (late) [2 @ 90 degrees -> 2] by Hs-129 [4] is 100%.
ATCombat : Effective hit on 5th Tank Army T-34/76 (late) by XLVIII.PzK Hs-129.
Combat : T-34/76 (late) destroyed. (specific_attrit=1)


Combat : Smite: 5th Tank Army 1st Tank Corps, 117.Tank.Brig, (anti-armor), attrition%= 0.
Combat : XLVIII.PzK weapons firing on 5th Tank Army T-70.
ATCombat : Hs-129 current terrain/lighting/weather dependent accuracy: 30%.
ATCombat : T-70 target cross section bias: 70%.
ATCombat : Hs-129 current effective accuracy vs. T-70: 21%.
ATCombat : Chance of penetration on T-70 [1 @ 90 degrees -> 1] by Hs-129 [4] is 100%.
ATCombat : Effective hit on 5th Tank Army T-70 by XLVIII.PzK Hs-129.
Combat : T-70 damaged, sent to replacement pool. (specific_attrit=1)

Interdiction level is 1%, I just created one Staffel of 12 planes. But they managed to intercept a moving Tank Brigade, too!



_____________________________

My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 3
RE: What am I doing wrong? - 2/11/2012 12:03:52 AM   
ogar

 

Posts: 297
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline 		When you read thru the Oberst's second comment, you can see how valuable using toawlog can be.

It looks like this is a PO game (or maybe you're playing head-to-head), so you can run toawlog (it's in the menu with the settings for new supply, borders on/off, etc.); play a round; save the game; get the log file and save it.

EDIT L`zard reminds me that I did not shout loud enough.

IMPORTANT
(The downside to toawlog is that there is only 1 toawlog, and it gets overwritten ANY time you start up TOAW. So, saving, and moving the copy to another folder is a must.)

I recommend that you note what you're doing (and you do that); run the attack(s); save; copy the log; examine it vs your notes.

Do not get too caught in the individual runs ("4 HS-129 attack 3 T-34 ..."); they give you an insight into how the 'roll of the dice' affect good plans. Watch the overall outcome from each attack (2 for LL, 3 for IL) on the hex.

In your example, I can see that the top P 47 group is tired (65% readiness for Allied air in 1944 is pushing them hard; and with 45% supply, wow.) This is their 3rd (?) sortie of the turn ? My guess is about 62% of the top group (and I'll guess the same for the other 2 P 47 groups) make it to the hex. You do not have weather or AAA or enemy fighters to contend with, but any of those would quickly whittle down that 62% further. (A great thing about the log, is that you see how few of your units actually attack/defend per prof/read/supply.)

And how far are they flying ? If range to target is more than half their max range, the effect weight is cut (I think by the ratio of (1 - distanceflown/max range)).

Finally, you're effectively bombarding with these units. That can help, but no much -- no entrenchment to degrade, no units to knock out of D/E/F...

My two cents -- I wouldnt have attacked with these guys until they get readiness closer to 80, and supply over 80. It's the USAAF in 1944 -- will not take long. And then I would not send them all to bombard -- maybe 1, in conjunction with some artillery; in round 2 I would directly target the remaining 2 groups as part of a combined armor/infantry/artillery attack -- IF THAT ATTACK HAS GOOD ODDS (the AR ratio) OF SUCCESS.

If the attack does not look good, then set 1 of them to CS and 1 to INT; dig in the Allies.

HTH





< Message edited by ogar -- 2/12/2012 5:47:35 PM >

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 4
RE: What am I doing wrong? - 2/11/2012 5:36:13 AM   
Doctor Zaius

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 12/17/2011
Status: offline 		Can someone help me find this "toawlog" ? I can't seem to locate the option to run it, or locate the directory the file is in.

It looks like something I'd like to learn more about.

(in reply to ogar)
Post #: 5
RE: What am I doing wrong? - 2/11/2012 9:14:43 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Doctor Zaius

Can someone help me find this "toawlog" ? I can't seem to locate the option to run it, or locate the directory the file is in.

It looks like something I'd like to learn more about.

Ja, seee - > http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2742675&mpage=1�

Open the Opart.ini file and look for TOAWLOG. Make sure the flag is set to TOAWLOG=Y

That's it!

Say Hello! to Doctor Zira and Taylor, will you?

Klink, Oberst

_____________________________

My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to Doctor Zaius)
Post #: 6
RE: What am I doing wrong? - 2/12/2012 1:39:51 AM   
1_Lzard


Posts: 528
Joined: 8/18/2010
From: McMinnville, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Doctor Zaius

Can someone help me find this "toawlog" ? I can't seem to locate the option to run it, or locate the directory the file is in.

It looks like something I'd like to learn more about.


Notes on toawlog: It should be noted that toawlog needs to be copied BEFOR one initiates another game/scenario........toawlog will overwrite on the next start-up.

_____________________________

"I have the brain of a Genius, and the heart of a Little Child. I keep them in a jar under my bed!"

(in reply to Doctor Zaius)
Post #: 7
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