RE: Will you keep playing after this patch?

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RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/13/2012 5:20:46 AM

gradenko2k

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While I wouldn't quite say it quite as vitrolic or as pessimistically as heliodorus04 did, I do have to agree with the premise that a lot of the supposed "accurate simulation" part of the game is lost in the shuffle of "forced" combat results, such as National Morale being so low for the Soviets, the First Winter rules, the March Madness rules, et al.

I'm also of the opinion that while a slow Berlin-bound grind might be the only historically plausible outcome, I can empathize with a German player feeling that it's not fun to enter what is essentially a defensive war. If we are to consider that the game frees the player from a lot of the political hoopla of Hitler and Stalin, then I think it's worth examining victory conditions that reflect the apolitical and purely military goals of Operation Barbarossa.

That is, even if we grant that the USSR as a state would not have collapsed with the loss of Leningrad/Moscow/Stalingrad, that's political. If the Wehrmacht manages to capture the three within 1941 or even 1942, then that's military. I think that there's certainly room for a "this particular grand campaign is separate from the original one and has victory conditions that you may not agree with, but is presented as a consensual alternative" kind of deal.

(in reply to AFV)

Post #: 151

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/13/2012 5:48:21 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV
Perhaps another way of looking at it is like this: I would like the possibility, due to the Soviet outplaying the German, of stopping the German in '42 and even pushing them back. Or the opposite, due to great play of the German, they run wild thru Mother Russia. Right now, I don't think good or bad play can make that much difference (again, please not saying NO difference). It does seem like the game follows a more historical course regardless of play. Perhaps I fall in the category of wanting more of a game than a simulation?

I can appreciate your arguments, but as you suggest, I think you are looking for something a bit less tethered to reality than what this game is supposed to be (at least according to my understanding). I really don't think it is realistic that the Sovs push back the Germans in 1942, and many were screaming when this was happening in earlier patches (before revocation of 1:1->2:1). As to the Germans running wild through Russia, I think this should almost never happen, unless the Sov player is a complete noob. So of course the Sovs will always end up in Berlin, but sometimes in Jan 1945, and sometimes in December 1945, or perhaps later...

(in reply to AFV)

Post #: 152

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/13/2012 6:26:22 AM

Joel Billings

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I see no reason why players can't come up with agreed to auto victory conditions if it will generate for themselves a more interesting game. If you add victory conditions that if Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad are captured, the Germans win automatically, you'll have a game with the same conditions that AH Stalingrad had. Based on various AARs, I'd say these conditions can be achieved given the current game, although they will not be easily achieved. They may be near impossible against a very good Soviet player that doesn't make any major mistakes and knows that these cities must be protected at all costs. I've certainly seen plenty of games where Moscow and Leningrad have fallen.

I just took a look back at the various patches to remind myself what's been done so far. There are many improvements and bug fixes in the various patches over the past 14 months. These items stand out to me as the major changes made to impact game balance:

1) December 2010 - Game Released

2) April 2011 - 1.04 version - tried to correct for the overly harsh original first winter rules/first attempt at reducing fort construction rates to increase mobility -- attempting to give the German better survivability into 1942 and allow a better German 42 offensive

3) September 2011 - 1.05 version - 2nd attempt to reduce overly high fortification levels/major changes to national morale rules, intended to reflect that the Soviet army in early/mid 1942 was in some ways less efficient than it was at the start of the war/added Hiwi's -- all helping to increase German offensive capability in 1942 (although these impact other times as well)

4) January 2012 - 1.05.59 (soon to be 1.06) version - 2nd attempt to alter morale rules/addition of Spring 1942 penalties to reduce March Madness/Soviet C&C changes to better reflect Soviet structure and limitations in 1942 and after/various adjustments impacting 42-45, partially based on development and testing of Don to Danube later war scenarios -- intended to better balance what we felt were over corrections made earlier to 1942, while making things harder on the Soviets post 1942 -- also made many AI improvements for those playing against the AI

Those are the highlights. We feel we are done with the major rule changes for 1.06 and hope to make it official within a few weeks. So far we believe that each major update was an improvement on the game and we feel no different about this latest one. It will probably take 3-6 months to see how things go. I can't say for sure how things will come out (I'm optimistic), but I'm ready to go work on WitW for awhile and let those of you who want to play to do so without feeling we're going to be changing the rules again next week or next month.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
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(in reply to gradenko2k)

Post #: 153

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/13/2012 6:57:11 AM

76mm

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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
...but I'm ready to go work on WitW for awhile and let those of you who want to play to do so without feeling we're going to be changing the rules again next week or next month.

I'd be fine if you introduce a whole slew of new changes in the next week or month, if I had started a new game I could restart without having invested too much time. But given the length of the campaign game, if you introduce a bunch of new changes after six months or a year, then I've wasted huge amounts of time. Several people have suggested playing existing games without patching, but the fact is that most people are not interested in doing so.

I enjoyed this game when first released and would no doubt enjoy any game started under the current patch, but I'm not willing to invest hundreds of hours playing a game that will have to be restarted because of further major patches. I will keep my eye on the forum and hopefully start another game in a year or so if things have truly settled down by then.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 154

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/13/2012 8:47:26 AM

randallw

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As long as people are complaining that parts of the game are not realistic ( or fair ) there will be patches being made, causing the restart potential again and again.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 155

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/13/2012 9:44:32 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw
As long as people are complaining that parts of the game are not realistic ( or fair ) there will be patches being made, causing the restart potential again and again.

Nah, there will always be some vocal complainers, but at some point the devs should say "no mas", and maybe we've reached that point already, dunno.

The biggest problems with this game (logistics, etc.) won't be fixed in any patch, so maybe it is time to stop the tweaking around the edges (while continuing to fix bugs, etc.).

(in reply to randallw)

Post #: 156

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/13/2012 6:12:39 PM

koiosworks

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76mm - your problem is much easier solved by simply not feeling the compusive need to patch. just finish outstanding games with the version of the game it started under. this is much preferable to having 2x3 orphan the game development.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 157

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/13/2012 6:15:38 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
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quote:

ORIGINAL: koiosworks
76mm - your problem is much easier solved by simply not feeling the compusive need to patch. just finish outstanding games with the version of the game it started under. this is much preferable to having 2x3 orphan the game development.

Actually I don't care to patch at all, but opponents generally want to keep up with the latest patch, and no one (including me) can be bothered to maintain two versions of the game.

(in reply to koiosworks)

Post #: 158

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/14/2012 10:16:10 PM

heliodorus04

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From: Nashville TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Totenkopf by Charles Trang - there's a gratutious 'I read history books too' reference for those who find them necessary)

http://www.amazon.com/Totenkopf-Charles-Trang/dp/2840481715/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329079689&sr=1-4

Hardcover: 400 pages
"This detailed text is accompanied by an astonishing collection of some 800 photographs."

400 pages with 800 photos. Now this is a lot of reading history books too.

While I'm pleased that you could stop massaging Glanz's taint long enough to get both hands on a keyboard, the pleasure is over-ridden by the fact that you cannot understand sarcasm. Am I so a threat to whatever it is you stand for that you have to research the books I'm reading to find matter with which to impugn me, or are you simply jealous that I have row upon row of high-value and rare reading material about the war you claim to know so much about?

This is your intellectual counter to my arguments? Please. I have better reasoned bowel movements than that.

I know I was warned by mods to keep it civil, but these are the people you're allowing to bully. He doesn't like the book I cite, so he's going to call me an idiot. Why isn't he called out by name?

Prior to this post, I said nothing that could not be said in a peer review of a professorial thesis, including what I have said to Marquo. Wosung wants to call me names, then I should get to rebut similarly.

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
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(in reply to wosung)

Post #: 159

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/14/2012 10:26:16 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: koiosworks
76mm - your problem is much easier solved by simply not feeling the compusive need to patch. just finish outstanding games with the version of the game it started under. this is much preferable to having 2x3 orphan the game development.

Actually I don't care to patch at all, but opponents generally want to keep up with the latest patch, and no one (including me) can be bothered to maintain two versions of the game.

I wouldn't say no one. I have four seperate game installs.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 160

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/15/2012 9:23:02 AM

wosung

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Joined: 7/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Totenkopf by Charles Trang - there's a gratutious 'I read history books too' reference for those who find them necessary)

http://www.amazon.com/Totenkopf-Charles-Trang/dp/2840481715/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329079689&sr=1-4

Hardcover: 400 pages
"This detailed text is accompanied by an astonishing collection of some 800 photographs."

400 pages with 800 photos. Now this is a lot of reading history books too.

While I'm pleased that you could stop massaging Glanz's taint long enough to get both hands on a keyboard, the pleasure is over-ridden by the fact that you cannot understand sarcasm. Am I so a threat to whatever it is you stand for that you have to research the books I'm reading to find matter with which to impugn me, or are you simply jealous that I have row upon row of high-value and rare reading material about the war you claim to know so much about?

This is your intellectual counter to my arguments? Please. I have better reasoned bowel movements than that.

I know I was warned by mods to keep it civil, but these are the people you're allowing to bully. He doesn't like the book I cite, so he's going to call me an idiot. Why isn't he called out by name?

Prior to this post, I said nothing that could not be said in a peer review of a professorial thesis, including what I have said to Marquo. Wosung wants to call me names, then I should get to rebut similarly.

Didn't know the Trang book so I just checked it out. Based on Amazon's book data and based on the readers comments over there, some positive some negative, it seems to be basically a photo album.

How is that calling you names, or indicating I don�t like the Trang book or I don�t like photo albums?

Please feel free to discuss the forum policy with Eric Rutins.

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 161

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/15/2012 11:42:03 AM

AFV

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From: Dallas, Texas
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+1 to what Aurelian said. I have not yet, but I will keep seperate installs of the game going forward. I don't think its that much of a bother.

(in reply to wosung)

Post #: 162

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/16/2012 9:25:59 AM

chuckfourth

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Joined: 10/26/2011
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Hi Appollo11

quote:

Apollo11

Of course I am serious - every modern respected historian agrees with this fact as well!

There was no chance for Germany to win in the Eastern Front in one quick campaign (and that was all Germany was capable of at that time)!!!

Dont forget the original idea was to crush Poland followed by Russia.
Englands( and Frances?) declaration of war on Germany probably slowed down the scedule, (Invasion of France Norway etc etc)
not to mention when Hitler finally got back to Russia, Mussulini invaded Greece meaning Hitler lost a further month or so.
One day maybe two extra senarios based on these timelines ;)

_____________________________

Best Regards Chuck

(in reply to KamilS)

Post #: 163

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/16/2012 9:51:37 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

As Joel wrote in this forum few times... one day hopefully we will have an all encompassing "War in the Europe" 1939-1945... let's hope...

Leo "Apollo11"

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A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 164

RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/17/2012 3:02:42 PM

wildweasel0585

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Joined: 12/31/2010
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I might continue if the Russians continue to historically loose SW Front, Leningrad, and Moscow every game without being able to put up any kind of defense and if the Axis keep running away during the blizzard