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Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 1/20/2012 3:21:22 PM

feelotraveller

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Given that it is almost time for 1.7.0.8 I thought it would be good to ask-

How did people find the adjustments to resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7, or did nobody else notice?

Personally I liked them but remain a bit uneasy about the balance between colony extraction rates and mining bases.

Speak now or forever hold your peace.

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 1/20/2012 4:45:42 PM

LoBaron

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Am interested how the changes affected ressource availability as well.

But an assessment only makes sense when freighters stop playing exploration of deep space and do what they ought to do.
So I think this change can only be evaluated after freighter distribution has been adressed.

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 1/22/2012 12:55:44 PM

w1p

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what is the colony extraction rate? I assumed that it extracted at the max as if there were 2/3 gas miners or 3/4 ore/lux miners??

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 1/24/2012 11:03:48 PM

feelotraveller

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The starting colony extraction rate (in 1.7.0.7) is about 6 (i.e. 60% cap) for ore/luxury. I have not tested with gas but expect it to be 28 (i.e. 70%). Regardless of what some people have said you cannot increase your extraction rate at a colony by adding extractors to bases in orbit. I believe the colony extraction rates are a leftover from earlier versions of Legends being equivalent of outdated rates of 2 mining engines. As of 1.7.0.7 however, starting tech mining engines extract at 1/3 of total cap (i.e. 33.3repeated %) and gas extractors are a little over 15.6 (of 40 potential...). It may merely have been an oversight in the tinkering/balancing process.

Hopefully they will update the figures in the tech screen if this becomes incorporated into a non-beta version of the game. I am really surprised no one is interested in this game balancing... it seems very important to me...

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 1/25/2012 2:10:29 AM

Raap

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To me it seems it's all too easy. It never even occurs to me to check my resources, since I always seem to have more than enough for what I need. Only time I've trouble building stuff is when trying to construct space ports at newly colonized planets, but I plan for that by starting construction early. Ship construction seems to be mostly just limited by the amount of construction docks I have on my bases, and the construction time is so low that it's never an issue anyway.

Then again, I've read from different people on the forum here that they've trouble with certain resources. Maybe it's just my particular playing style, since I concentrate on quality and size over quantity. One would need to be careful about tweaking it though, wouldn't want the AI to have any ill effects.

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 1/25/2012 2:53:50 AM

feelotraveller

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Yes. I much preferred the early Legends versions with only one mining engine on each base. Made resources more valued. Hoping with new ship/base design options I will be able to reinstitute this.

It was (is?) one of the big appeals to me about Legends - rarer resources. Unfortunately it has swung the other way. I suspect you are right and it was the computer which could not cope...

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 1/25/2012 6:24:11 AM

LoBaron

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Agree feelotraveller, also most situations where ressources are bottlenecked are the result
of the player overstreching way too early. Its a feature, not a a balancing issue IMHO.

The lower the average extraction rate, the more interesting waging war with
focus on economy (as compared to conquest) gets, the more the early empires
are rather forced to concentrate on local ressources and fuel, and the higher
the impact of freighter builds because of new colonies are.

It definitely would improve gameplay if the AI is able to handle these situations well
and the ressource extraction is lowered again.

But as I said, first thing I�d like to see sorted out is ressource distribution by freighters.
If this is covered the impact of extraction rates are easier to evaluate.

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 1/25/2012 8:13:58 PM

Harry2

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Resource management is way too easy. I just spam construction ships at the start of each game and have hardly ever run into resource problems. Only a couple of times fuel has been a slight problem but a bit of manual work with construction ships and Resupply Ships had that straightened out jiffy-quick.

There doesn't seem to be any concept of "strategically critical resources". Attention to this aspect would add a lot to war planning, defensively and offensively. It would give a very important role to your intelligence agaents: search out the most critical resources (and locations of them) of the other empires for current or future targeting.

The whole trade & transport system lacks any real relevance to gameplay. I know the mechanics of the game requires harvesting, transporting and using various resources but all that just seems like background window-dressing for appearance. Interdiction of enemy resources should be a bigger part of operations. It should be easier to intercept ships in hyper-space. You should be able to put together small groups of fast hunter/killer ships whose only pupose (automated if wanted) is to kill enemy freighters and crash the economy. Force the use of escorted convoys. Force the enemy to spend time and resources on protecting freighters, and building new ones. But perhaps the current AI is not adequate for this.

Edit: Corrected my spelling mistakes. I hate posting spelling mistakes.

< Message edited by Harry2 -- 1/25/2012 8:29:17 PM >

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 2/20/2012 6:16:54 PM

jimhsu

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What is "silly" though is that having a star base and a mining station on a "special resources" planet gets more resources than having a colony on that planet. It should certainly be the other way around. Perhaps put something in the code for luxury resources?

That said I do experience severe carbon fiber/chromium shortages when late game rolls around and fleets of 40+ ships are being obliterated every minute. It's not as bad for my current abundant resources game, but in more resource strapped games, you definitely do see the difference. (it's times like these where I wish there was an option to restrict trading of certain resources. If carbon fiber is a strategically important resource, you certainly don't want to be trading it away when you're the only one who has stock).

< Message edited by jimhsu -- 2/20/2012 6:19:03 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 2/21/2012 5:38:59 AM

jpwrunyan

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Every empire will have war profiteers. Being able to arbitrarily stop the private sector from trading with enemies seems unrealistic for most government types. Your governments are the antagonists. Your population may not really be on your side. See: current day Iran

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 2/21/2012 5:02:11 PM

LiquidSky

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I knew a guy who worked for Counter-Intelligence during WWII for the British. His job was to catch the American soldiers who were selling fuel to the Germans. Apparently they could tell that most of the fuel that the Germans used for their tanks came from American sources from the chemical content.

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 11/17/2012 7:47:00 PM

jimhsu

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This is how resources work so far in 1.7.0.16:

Mining stations / Starbases

All resources are updated once per week (7 days).
Mining rate = FLOOR(Raw mining rate * Rarity)

e.g. Lead abundance: 100%, raw mining rate = 60; mined amount per week = 60
Gold abundance: 39%, raw mining rate = 60; mined amount per week = 22 (this is rounded, so game says either 22 or 23)

Raw mining rate = MAX((rate shown in Ship Design * 10),(100))
(Yes, this does mean that with mining upgrades, 2 extractors provides maximal resource extraction at least for common and luxury resources. In fact, I think the last upgrade is basically useless).

Colonies

Extraction rate scales linearly from 200M (max 20) to 600M (max 60) by the relation
Raw mining rate = Population in M/10
Populations above or below are capped to the corresponding min or max.

Spaceports

Mining components on spaceports on colonized planets do not produce additional resources.
Mining components on starbases on colonized planets do not produce additional resources.

Raw testing data: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_bXytCFRyFCWlJZTlJFN0kwQ28

Implications:

- In the late game, you should NOT have more than 2 extractors on any base, period. Earlier, there may be an advantage to having 3 extractors on a base. More resources can be obtained by building more bases on the same planet.
- More extractors do NOT increase extraction of low abundance(%) resources. In other words, use one extractor setup, and prioritize high abundance planets.
- Colonies are pretty lousy at resource generation compared to mines.
- Obliterating a colony and building multiple starbases on that colony produces dramatically more resources (relevant for "special resource" planets) than having it colonized. Of course, the problem is that someone can come and scoop it up if it's not in your territory.

Changes I would suggest:
- Make colonies far more efficient at producing resources (especially for high populations). As in 10x current amounts for 10000M+ worlds. [this may fix the end game carbon fiber/chromium shortage also, because continental/marshy worlds are also the ones that are often colonized.] Additionally, mining components on spaceports should contribute to the colony.
- Make max mining rate for extractors and colonies scale with extractor technology (so that at max tech, max raw rate is more than 100).
- Make the max rate shared across a planet, so that building 10 bases doesn't offer 10x the benefit of one base.
- Increase the max raw rate by a bit, and make it exponentially decay once closer to the max, so that a massive starbase with 20x extractors might offer 5x faster rate than a base with 1 extractor.

< Message edited by jimhsu -- 11/17/2012 11:03:43 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 11/17/2012 10:17:05 PM

Bebop Cola

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I'd like to see these kinds of calculations and statistics in the Galactopedia or in some other component assessment in-game. It seems like something any technological or economic planner would have in a real-world situation.

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 11/17/2012 10:42:28 PM

jimhsu

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Since the galactopedia is just a bunch of HTML files, it's pretty easily editable. Except that I don't have the time to format it all nicely and stuff - someone else can do that.

Additionally, it's probably unnecessary as the default resources setting is probably optimal (2 extractors/mine). It's just like math geeks want more info :p

< Message edited by jimhsu -- 11/17/2012 11:01:35 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 11/18/2012 8:54:18 AM

Darkspire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimhsu

Since the galactopedia is just a bunch of HTML files, it's pretty easily editable. Except that I don't have the time to format it all nicely and stuff - someone else can do that.

Additionally, it's probably unnecessary as the default resources setting is probably optimal (2 extractors/mine). It's just like math geeks want more info :p

There HTML in .MHT files. Ive had many problems and a workaround solution, so in reference to 'pretty easily editable', could you let me know what you are using to edit them?

Darkspire

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 11/18/2012 4:52:50 PM

Shark7

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It does seem backwards that you can mine faster on a barren rock with no atmosphere (READ: Limited workers for limited time periods) as compared to a colonized planet where you can have more workers and have them work longer shifts. Plus it completely obliterates the reason for colonizing planets in the first place, doesn't it?

I have found that carbon fibre is the hardest commodity to keep in stock when I play a continental colonizing race, since I have to colonize all the best mines.

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 11/18/2012 7:55:27 PM

Bebop Cola

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I would imagine that most mining in an interstellar age is automated and runs 24x7. A lower rate of yield for a planet could represent a cut of that yield going to domestic use.

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 11/18/2012 8:17:09 PM

Darkspire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

It does seem backwards that you can mine faster on a barren rock with no atmosphere (READ: Limited workers for limited time periods) as compared to a colonized planet where you can have more workers and have them work longer shifts. Plus it completely obliterates the reason for colonizing planets in the first place, doesn't it?

I have found that carbon fibre is the hardest commodity to keep in stock when I play a continental colonizing race, since I have to colonize all the best mines.

Ive had the same problem. Would be more useful to include a slider on game setup for resource amounts, coming from DW+ROTS and playing Legends is a bit of a windup, im not so much as playing the game but playing around the new short comings. I bought Legends because I enjoyed the others, had I known it was this 'nerfed' I would not have bothered, I do realise that others like to play the game differently, hence the 'would be more useful to include a slider on game setup for resource amounts' comment. That way folks would have a choice and another option for making the game harder or easier.

Darkspire

< Message edited by Darkspire -- 11/18/2012 8:25:22 PM >

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 11/20/2012 7:17:05 PM

jimhsu

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To attempt to counter this problem I usually leave one continental/marshy world uncolonized (in controlled territory of course) and send construction ships to build 10-20 starbases/mining stations (which is possible as long as one does not already exist on the planet). Of course this is borderline exploitative and requires setting colonization to manual, but is a solution when the entire galaxy simply "runs out of ships" somewhere near late game with hundreds of ships in queues all over. (Yes, I've seen unfulfilled demand in the several thousands Ks galaxy-wide before)

Oh, this also makes a boatload of money. :)

< Message edited by jimhsu -- 11/20/2012 7:20:05 PM >

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Post #: 19

RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 6/12/2014 1:37:44 PM

BlueTemplar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimhsu

This is how resources work so far in 1.7.0.16:

Mining stations / Starbases

All resources are updated once per week (7 days).
Mining rate = FLOOR(Raw mining rate * Rarity)

e.g. Lead abundance: 100%, raw mining rate = 60; mined amount per week = 60
Gold abundance: 39%, raw mining rate = 60; mined amount per week = 22 (this is rounded, so game says either 22 or 23)

Raw mining rate = MAX((rate shown in Ship Design * 10),(100))
(Yes, this does mean that with mining upgrades, 2 extractors provides maximal resource extraction at least for common and luxury resources. In fact, I think the last upgrade is basically useless).

Colonies

Extraction rate scales linearly from 200M (max 20) to 600M (max 60) by the relation
Raw mining rate = Population in M/10
Populations above or below are capped to the corresponding min or max.

Spaceports

Mining components on spaceports on colonized planets do not produce additional resources.
Mining components on starbases on colonized planets do not produce additional resources.

Raw testing data: *can't link due to forum rules, see the initial quoted post*

Implications:

- In the late game, you should NOT have more than 2 extractors on any base, period. Earlier, there may be an advantage to having 3 extractors on a base. More resources can be obtained by building more bases on the same planet.
- More extractors do NOT increase extraction of low abundance(%) resources. In other words, use one extractor setup, and prioritize high abundance planets.
- Colonies are pretty lousy at resource generation compared to mines.
- Obliterating a colony and building multiple starbases on that colony produces dramatically more resources (relevant for "special resource" planets) than having it colonized. Of course, the problem is that someone can come and scoop it up if it's not in your territory.

Changes I would suggest:
- Make colonies far more efficient at producing resources (especially for high populations). As in 10x current amounts for 10000M+ worlds. [this may fix the end game carbon fiber/chromium shortage also, because continental/marshy worlds are also the ones that are often colonized.] Additionally, mining components on spaceports should contribute to the colony.
- Make max mining rate for extractors and colonies scale with extractor technology (so that at max tech, max raw rate is more than 100).
- Make the max rate shared across a planet, so that building 10 bases doesn't offer 10x the benefit of one base.
- Increase the max raw rate by a bit, and make it exponentially decay once closer to the max, so that a massive starbase with 20x extractors might offer 5x faster rate than a base with 1 extractor.

Is this still accurate for 1.9.5.2?

What about Luxury and Gas extractors? Especially Gas Extractors, with an extraction rate of 20 would mean a single Gas Extractor has a Raw Mining Rate of MAX(20*10=200)=100 and would mine the maximum amount (of 100*abundance%) every 7 days.
(or is that 6 days?) (Why 3 Gas Extractors has been suggested for base max rate then?)

Also, is it true that Extractor rate is halved for ships? What is that thing about gas clouds, are they slowing it further down?

Is that maximum mining rate shown anywhere in the game?

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RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 6/12/2014 1:50:17 PM

fenrislokison

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if i remember right, the equivalent gas extracting rate of mining rate 3 is 14 (i mean a basic tech mining engine is rated 3 while the gas is rated 14 in the research screen).

so i think you just have to make a equivalent calculation based on 14 instead of 3.

Raw mining rate = MAX((rate shown in Ship Design * 10),(100)) => Raw Gas Mininng rate = MAX((rate shown in Ship Design * 10),(100*14/3 = 466,66))

or something like this...

idea being that the numbers maybe different, but mining extractors and gas mining extractors work the same way.

Aren't luxury extractors rating the same as mining ones? i think it is and then, it works exactly the same as mining.

For ships, i never bothered to check but i read it's half indeed but I never heard anything about gas clouds being different in any ways from planets.

I don't think the maximum mining rate is shown in the game as i understood it's a limitation that didn't exist in the past.

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Post #: 21

RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 6/12/2014 2:18:59 PM

BlueTemplar

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My Gas Extractors show 20.

About ships and clouds, see the post 10 of the Resource Extraction Cap topic :
matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2966128

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Post #: 22

RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 6/12/2014 2:36:03 PM

fenrislokison

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20 seems strange to me, i expected 14 or 18 or 22 (rates as shown in the tech tree). Maybe you have mining bonuses?

but reading the linked topic, there is this(first post):
A gas mine of 100% will yield up to 400 units but at the same extraction rate of 140 per extractor on tech level one. It is unimportant if cloud or planet!

so i suppose:
Raw mining rate = MAX((rate shown in Ship Design * 10),(100)) => Raw Gas Mininng rate = MAX((rate shown in Ship Design * 10),(400)) (and not 466 as i said before)

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Post #: 23

RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 6/17/2014 10:05:22 AM

feelotraveller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Is this still accurate for 1.9.5.2?

What about Luxury and Gas extractors? Especially Gas Extractors, with an extraction rate of 20 would mean a single Gas Extractor has a Raw Mining Rate of MAX(20*10=200)=100 and would mine the maximum amount (of 100*abundance%) every 7 days.
(or is that 6 days?) (Why 3 Gas Extractors has been suggested for base max rate then?)

Also, is it true that Extractor rate is halved for ships? What is that thing about gas clouds, are they slowing it further down?

Is that maximum mining rate shown anywhere in the game?

Disclaimer: I have done zero testing on DW Universe, but...

Previously the cap for Gas extractors was a rating of 40 units as listed on the tech screen. So I would assume that currently 2 gas extractors provides the maximum extraction (or 50% of cap per extractor with initial tech). Starting tech used to be rated lower - maybe it was 14 and then changed to 18? - which is where 3 extractors would have come from.

The cap for minerals and luxuries has been 10. (So with a rating of 3 up to 4 extractors can be useful, or 3 working at complete efficiency. Two improvements up in mining tech 5x2=10.) To the best of my knowledge the figures for the caps are not noted in game or in the supporting manuals/galactopedia. Feel free to correct me if this proves to be wrong, or later becomes so.

If memory serves the cap difference of clouds and gas giants disappeared long ago.

The resource collection period was always 6 days.

I have not tested the mining ships in this version but they seem to extract much quicker. I think the design details screen shows that they no longer have their mining rates cut in half. I'm not sure if they still have their cargo deliveries cut in half when they get back to the spaceport... but that is worth looking at.

If you feel like checking you could do so yourself. I've found that the easiest way to do this is to spawn a resource point, asteroids work well for mining ships, and then spawn your chosen design on top of the resource location. Unpause for a a day at a time until you find a data point where cargo is added. Then either pause at the time of the resource collection cycle (and initally a day before or after for confirmation of this period) or let the game run for sufficient time that you can divide the inital mined cargo over the number of days (dropping any partial cycle remainder). Probably a combination of the two methods will give you confirmation of what you seek. Let us know what you find!

(in reply to BlueTemplar)

Post #: 24

RE: Resource extraction rates in 1.7.0.7 - 6/17/2014 10:41:18 AM

BlueTemplar

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I already did some testing here :
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3634839&key=

It would seem that the extraction rate is
extraction*5*resource%/6days
with a cap of
20*5*resource%/6days for mining (haven't tested luxuries)
80*5*resource%/6days for gas mining
Mining ships seems to extract at the same rate as bases (haven't tested for gas or luxuries)
(Haven't tested gas clouds)

(in reply to feelotraveller)

Post #: 25