IronDuke_slith
Posts: 1595
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Offworlder
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
Your breaking my heart there Jaw.......I sure hope they add it in.....it would really add to the game for the better IMO.
+1
Since basically the allies have got several inexhaustable sources of materiel that are beyond the German's reach, its only fair that the Axis get to do some tweaking to their production. Basically if the Axis are not allowed some leeway in production and unit recruitment, what's the point of playing? The Axis had some wasted opportunities, why do we have to repeat their mistakes?
What were their wasted opportunities? The Germans put every available man into uniform by impressing slave labour on a hitherto unheard of scale. You could argue that the 20 odd Luftwaffe field Divisions could be stopped, and the manpower added to the main pool, but this doesn't create more manpower, merely maintains fewer infantry units at more optimum strength. They lacked the resources to build more Panzer Divisions, and even if they had had the resources, wouldn't have had the fuel to move them. The Luftwaffe Field units would have simply been soaked up by the Heer/Waffen SS as replacements.
I'm usually keen to hear what people would do with German production if they had the chance.
Pre-war it was flat out (and failing) to equip the units they had raised. In 1941, the expansion to invade the Soviet union was fueled by captured french trucks and Czech Tanks. Late war increased production could only maintain levels in the wake of allied bombing not substantially improve them.
There is absolutely nothing the Germans could do at a strategic level with their production that would make a jot of difference to the war's outcome. Build more 190s and fewer 109s? Irrelevant, they lacked the fuel to train sufficient replacements well enough for the better planes to make a difference.
Build no Panthers and get twice as many MK IVs instead? Pointless, since Army morale would have nosedived (who wants a 10% reduction in national morale if this option is chosen?) and they lacked the fuel to keep the Panthers moving, so twice as many fuel tanks would have seen the Panzer Waffe grind to a halt even earlier, assuming that is they could find the support vehicles, rubber and technical personnel to house the extra tanks in the order of battle.
Get control of research and get the Panther in 41/42? How? Given the Panther was the result of meeting the T34 which didn't happen until June/July 1941, how exactly do you get it any earlier?
Get control of research and get the 262 a year earlier? It makes no difference. Wonderful when they worked, but hugely expensive and requiring all sorts of materials the Germans simply didn't have, the Allies defeated them by the simple expedient of loitering around the airfields waiting for them to land. When they landed, they were defenceless and shot out of the sky a few feet above the runway.
Another favourite is don't bother with the Tirpitz, but the ship was afloat (albeit not complete) before the war even started, which basically means you are making production decisions from around 1935. Use the steel for tanks and all you have is another 1000 engines you can't fuel.
The Maus is an irrelevance.
Ultimately, the Germans were overwhelmed. In other words, wherever you placed your deckchair on the Titanic, you were getting wet sooner or later. The Allied bombing campaign should also be abstracted. It was bad enough as it was. Give the Allies hindsight and the Germans are in real trouble.
I have no objection to a little tinkering a la WITP. Prefer the Hetzer to the Marder III, fine. But no research, please, if the game isn't grounded in reality, what are we actually playing?
Abstract it and give a few options.
Allied players wants a carpet bomb strike al a Goodwood. Fine, Germans get 10% extra supplies for a day or two and an extra day's production adding to the pools to simulate the bombers being used for something else. Germans want extra 88s. Fine, give them 2000 extra guns and ammo and then drop production levels of everything else by 10% as the Allies fly past a lightweight Kammhuber line and hit largely undefended targets.
However, if you want the chance to build a fleet of 262s or 10 additional Panzer Divisions (made up of Lg MK IVs at the expense of Panther) then there should be some sort of "Invoke Gandalf" option that players can sign up to beforehand.
Still, each to his own, I appreciate others see it differently, and provided its utterly optional, I suppose they can put in whatever they like provided the core of the game remains rooted in reality.
Respect and regards,
ID
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RE: War in the West - 
. Just as the basic air combat model for UV/WitP used BTR as a starting point, I suspect that that WitW will trace a heritage back to that Grigsby game as well. 
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