Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

The TOE upgrades that occur during the course of the game are a great feature - I just wish they were optional - akin to the refit in WiTP. Why? Well, TOE upgrades were based on the historical timeline - some due to increased technological/equipment availability, some due to tactical awareness (reducing tank/infantry ratios), but many - especially later German - were due to manpower and equipment shortages as the war progressed.

But what happens when the war isn't going along the same track as historically? Perhaps the Germans are doing better? Two cases in point. Its late 44 going into 45 in my PBEM as the Germans. I have plenty of manpower and armaments in the pools - do I really want to convert to the 45 infantry division or the 45 panzer division which are weaker than the '44 counterparts? Not really.

Secondly, and this one kinda snuck up on me is the conversion of the security divisions to infantry divisions. This made perfect sense in the real campaign as the Germans were out of Soviet Russia by late 44 and didn't need the security divisions, so they became infantry divisions. But in my current game, all of the sudden (with no advanced warning) the security divisions garrisoning the cities behind my lines start converting to infantry units - losing the security garrison bonus as well! So now I've got to scramble and figure out how to re-garrison my rear areas - using 3 infantry units where one security unit could do the job! And face an increasing partisan threat.

While I'd prefer a menu to ask whether or not to upgrade, I realize that may be a stretch at this point.

At a minimum, I'd recommend WITHDRAWING the security divisions, and then having the replacing infantry divisions come in as reinforcements the same turn - that way, at least the German player would know they are losing the security divisions as they would be so indicated on the reinforcement screen as a withdrawal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

I've heard this complaint before and my reaction is that if you actually don't need the late war upgrades then the game is over - you have won! I think players are so obsessed with acheiving victory conditions they ignore the reality of their battlefield situation. If the Axis player can survive until late 1944 without being in a hopeless strategic defensive situation then he has effectively won the game regardless of what the victory conditions say. It is time to quit and start a new game. Just because the program allows the game to run until the fall of 1945 doesn't mean it's supposed to last that long. Use some common sense and pull the plug when it is obvious the Soviets aren't going to be in Berlin by the Spring of 1945.

I know what I'm saying is heresy to some (including maybe the designers) but I see no point in playing WitE past the point the underlying logic of the design becomes invalid. When you outperform the historical Germans that means more resources are available not merely to preserve stronger TOEs but also to re-direct those resources to other fronts where German fortunes are on the decline. An extra panzer division or two makes almost no difference on the Eastern Front but it could have been decisive in the West. Do you really think Hitler would have allowed Ost battalions to be used in the West if he had thousands of German replacements available from a better than historical situation in the East? Would the "Atlantic Wall" been built around static divisions and obsolete captured equipment if ample replacements and brand new equipment were available? Obviously not so a better than historical situation in the East means a better than historical situation in the West and a completely unknown re-distribution of assets of both quantity and type. In short, none of the assumptions on which the late War game is based are valid and continued play is pointless.

If you really want to play an "historically based" fantasy game where the Germans fight the Red Army to a standstill while the Western Allies sweep across Germany, be my guest but don't expect me to change the TOE upgrades so you can indulge that fantasy; that's what you have an editor for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

Come on !! What kind of answer is that ? If a player reaches this point in game in this situation than he should just stop the game and tell his PBEM opponent "Sorry pal but per Jaw I have whooped your derriere and this game should not be played anymore?!?!"

This is just ridiculous. Everytime there is a comment where someone thinks the game could be tinkered because it tends to be too deterministic and therefore skewed the more the actual match diverges from history, you just go there and say "you not happy? That's what the editor is for pal".

Again; another example of how the devs and community of WITP reacted positively to input and request and how in WITE's case a reasonnable query from a reasonnable playe gets a curt and condescending answer.

Not helpful really. Sorry to rant but that sort of reaction is really unhelpful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

However, the game goes to Sep 1945. Rules and concepts in the game should support that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

I'd welcome a May 1945 ending.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

I'd welcome a May 1945 ending.

Now that's an easy fix, just make a house rule at the beginning of your game that the War in Europe ends at the end of the second turn of May, 1945. Whatever the victory point position is at the end of that turn determines the winner and extent of victory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw
I've heard this complaint before and my reaction is that if you actually don't need the late war upgrades then the game is over - you have won! I think players are so obsessed with acheiving victory conditions they ignore the reality of their battlefield situation. If the Axis player can survive until late 1944 without being in a hopeless strategic defensive situation then he has effectively won the game regardless of what the victory conditions say. It is time to quit and start a new game. Just because the program allows the game to run until the fall of 1945 doesn't mean it's supposed to last that long. Use some common sense and pull the plug when it is obvious the Soviets aren't going to be in Berlin by the Spring of 1945.

I know what I'm saying is heresy to some (including maybe the designers) but I see no point in playing WitE past the point the underlying logic of the design becomes invalid. ...<important details>...

If you really want to play an "historically based" fantasy game where the Germans fight the Red Army to a standstill while the Western Allies sweep across Germany, be my guest but don't expect me to change the TOE upgrades so you can indulge that fantasy; that's what you have an editor for.