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RE: another disaster - 2/9/2012 3:56:26 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		But guys, please don't get me wrong: these latest testing weren't the core of my research. I first wanted to know what happens to large CAP concentrations against big strikes. Secondly i wanted to well understand how CAP actually works. It seems that i've learnt quite a few things...especially about the scrambling (which works 1 out of 10 times and there's seem to be a "limit") and being "out of position"...

The latest small tests were just looking for a decent HR that could address this particular game, given that large air battles simply aren't working fine.

Yes, 100 against 2/300 works pretty well... but it's very very difficult to regulate these settings in the environement we're playin

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6631
RE: another disaster - 2/9/2012 5:27:07 PM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Well, I figured you did..but..ya know

_____________________________

Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6632
RE: another disaster - 2/13/2012 3:46:47 PM   
hades1001

 

Posts: 977
Joined: 12/17/2007
Status: offline 		LOL it's really fun to see all these Leaking CAP arguments are still going on after my 2 weeks away from the game.

Greyjoy thanks for your tests because I have tried to acknowledge you weeks ago that your carriers defeat was not a bad dice and roll but inevitable. I had run tons of tests and I tried to point out that 200 fighters with 200 torpedo bombers will wipe out the TF58 no matter what number of CAP you put up. This is simply wrong but some guys in this forum, some so-called "veterans", are still defending the broken A2A system and being reluctant to any changes.

I have suspended the game and wait it to get fixed anyway. I'm glad you finally take a break and do the tests by yourself. Until then you will see how broken the system is. Hope you will not be fooled by those "veterans" who are trying to justify the problem with some vague assumptions and guesses.



< Message edited by hades1001 -- 2/13/2012 3:47:17 PM >

(in reply to jeffk3510)
Post #: 6633
RE: another disaster - 2/16/2012 4:30:51 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		OK, someone needs to bump this.

GJ: Are you guys receiving any joy on getting the air-to-air fixed? It would be a crime against humanity for this AAR to be stopped at this point.

Cheers,
CC

_____________________________

Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6634
RE: another disaster - 2/16/2012 6:15:54 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

OK, someone needs to bump this.

GJ: Are you guys receiving any joy on getting the air-to-air fixed? It would be a crime against humanity for this AAR to be stopped at this point.

Cheers,
CC

You guessed it! Some Syrian guy named Assad had his hackers bork the code to focus our attention away from him!


_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 6635
RE: another disaster - 2/16/2012 5:52:26 PM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Thanks CT. So an enemy strike would get a free pass through a hex with fighters just viewing the scenery?!! This looks like a code change is needed - there should at least be a chance of interception at a distance, given radar detection at 119 miles in the last test and vectoring from ground/sea fighter controllers.

As it stands you would need to put picket ships out there that the Japanese strike would go to instead of the main force. Would a hoarde of PTs work?? Torpedoes should pass right under them without exploding!


You are exactly right, and this problem with the code is what allows Rader to fly multiple kamikaze groups to an empty IJN base 1000 miles behind US lines and then launch kami strikes against unescorted tankers, 1500 miles behind US lines.

I've been doing the "provide the IJN with a target rich environment of small tf's of CL/DD's spread all over the map" in my Downfall AAR, and it seems to be working so far. DD's are hard to hit, and for the most part, they don't get hit. The next turn in my AAR will tell, however, as I have about 40 US CV/CVE 20+ BB, etc. etc. 1 hex off Kyushu.

_____________________________


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 6636
RE: another disaster - 2/19/2012 11:08:47 PM   
aoffen

 

Posts: 494
Joined: 6/7/2002
From: Brisvegas, Australia
Status: offline 		Greyjoy
Any news? It has been a while now. Is there a chance the game will be resurrected or do you think its over?
Regards
Andrew

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6637
RE: another disaster - 2/19/2012 11:49:27 PM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aoffen

Greyjoy
Any news? It has been a while now. Is there a chance the game will be resurrected or do you think its over?
Regards
Andrew

...the world wonders.

Cheers,
CC

_____________________________

Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to aoffen)
Post #: 6638
RE: another disaster - 2/22/2012 11:02:21 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		It's not over guys...

We just took a break...we badly needed to....

Rader is being very busy (he's flying to Oz for a week now) and i focused on my job too...

We'll resume the game within the next 2 weeks...

I still don't have a solution for the problem we've encountered so i think we'll just keep on playing it as it gets...but i'm not very confident that the allies would be able to do much more than what they did till now...

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 6639
RE: another disaster - 2/22/2012 11:03:41 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

OK, someone needs to bump this.

GJ: Are you guys receiving any joy on getting the air-to-air fixed? It would be a crime against humanity for this AAR to be stopped at this point.

Cheers,
CC



Not at all unfortunately...i think it's almost impossible to fix it without a massive testing behind any new code modifications...

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 6640
RE: another disaster - 2/22/2012 12:25:26 PM   
Itdepends

 

Posts: 937
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline 		Which side of Oz is Radar flying to? (I'm west coast- about 2hrs south of Perth)

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6641
RE: another disaster - 2/22/2012 1:46:18 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

OK, someone needs to bump this.

GJ: Are you guys receiving any joy on getting the air-to-air fixed? It would be a crime against humanity for this AAR to be stopped at this point.

Cheers,
CC



Not at all unfortunately...i think it's almost impossible to fix it without a massive testing behind any new code modifications...


I do not see any feedback in the Tech Support section that anybody to working on the problem or a plan ... Hopefully it is fixed or at least works better when I get to '44 ... or this journey will suck in a way to get so far and yet find a design bug ..

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6642
RE: another disaster - 2/26/2012 6:43:12 AM   
cwDeici

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 12/6/2011
Status: offline 		Personally I stopped reading right before the difficulties (just checking in a second and last time) because of all the one-sided HRs (and I'm not alone in this among the readers of the forum I frequent). I hope they manage to fix it up and have fun and report for those who are still reading though, of course.

Best Wishes

< Message edited by cwDeici -- 2/26/2012 6:47:37 AM >

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 6643
RE: another disaster - 3/8/2012 12:29:49 PM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		I'll dip my toe in this as I haven't had the time to read this whole thread to do a proper analysis. But here are some thoughts. If you've read my post on themain forum :

1. We're at ludicrous speed here

2. This isn't a bug. Not to say a bug isn't involved at some level, there are always bugs, but this is clearly a design limitation. We have exceeded our Q factor with this combat.

3. Also the firing passes etc, discussion is off. This is a time/Airspace issue. When a raid is detected you are given a Time to target. That delineates when a raid is first detected. The only CAP that can react to that raid immediately are those that are airborne. The rest have to scramble with associated delays to get to the bombers. If they dont do it in the time alotted then guess what...Ka-Blammo (tm)!!!!!

4. To those who say "this needs to be fixed" let me ask you this. Within the bounds of sanity how many aircraft do YOU think is reasonable in a given Combat? 100? 1000? 100,000? how bout a 1,000,000? Think about what you are saying.

5. We made changes to the system to try to break down Air Combat into more manageble chunks, or packets if you will. Large air Battles, in theory, could be chewed one bite at a time instead of all at once. But these two have managed to choke the game. The CAP ran out of time. This MAY be due to a previously unhighlighted design oversight, into which I have begun an inquiry. But suffice it to say the most obvious oversight was this: I don't think anyone thought players would ever be able to accomplish something like this. to that I would say : You can code a game and plan for as many wild and crazy permutations as you want, but you can’t code a human being’s play nor his propensity to try and game the system

6. Finally, I honestly don't think there is a fix for this that would make everyone happy. Making everyone happy is tough enough, but in this case even if a battle like this were played out as historically as was possible I still think the respective players would be disappointed. Why? Because it would still be retarded armageddon.

To those that lament that "the Bombers got through!", guess what. They usually did. THAT was reality. They didn't always get through in good order, but they GENERALLY always got through. Those who say otherwise are ignorant of historical fact, and are not providing constructive criticism.

Finally, and some of you will find this insensitive or whatever, but I just read the CR and after nearly $#!tt!ng myself I just laughed for about five minutes....sorry Greyjoy/Rader I don't mean to make light of your issue, but this is crazy. I am not going to go back and read your entire AAR, but however you got to this point, congratulations.

I'll look into this and see what can be done, but you all have to help me out...

_____________________________

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES



(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 6644
RE: another disaster - 3/8/2012 2:45:44 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

but this is clearly a design limitation. We have exceeded our Q factor with this combat.


You have a very unique set of conditions here by my limited research... First, a game actually played to almost the bitter end. In reading this forum that is a pretty rare occurance. Given the time investment of this game and other factors .. I believe such input would be very valuable .. I am not perceiving the understanding of this value ...

So would this behavior this occur in scenrario #1? If not then it is a limitation to ahistorical scenrarios? If it is likely in a scenario #1 then is the game desgined to fail? Is it because the Allies have planted so many airframes so close to bases within the Home Islands, which has not been tested?

I believe you might have hit upon a great point. One, games do not make great similations and great similations tend not to make great games.

BTW) If this is a similation I wonder what references were used to construct the probability curves? Does your modelling fit those curves?
I would believe a simulation would use the Circles of Apollonius intercept model rather than more abstract "what is around the target that can get there at one point of time ... " For example, I have not had aircraft between the target and the enemy airbase intercept incoming aircraft only aircraft within the circumference of the target, but maybe you all have figured out to have a probablity fit using that model? Just a thought ..

BTWII) I believe the forum would agree that there are problems with the model from the Allied flak and the 5" proximity fuse ... thus a lot more IJ aircraft make it through than my historical research .. but N=1 ...

BTWIII) As an ex-Architect I might not be so "and this is the way it is," and a little more "this is how I designed it and help me understand how to make it better ." . you might not change anything but the tone suggest even if I were to come up with the most brilliant suggestion .. the team is pretty much entrenched into the current design .. which is ok then the market decides the worth of the product at face value ..

.just my .02 cents ..

(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 6645
RE: another disaster - 3/12/2012 5:20:05 AM   
Grunt


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/17/2004
From: Idaho, USA
Status: offline 		I don't know my Q Factor from my Circle of Appollonius but I do know I enjoyed this AAR immensely. I declare Greyjoy the winner and think they should turn the chessboard around and play again from the other side. What do you guys think?

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 6646
RE: another disaster - 3/12/2012 2:36:24 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		No offense to GreyJoy, but that sounds like an extremely one-sided game, given Rader's familiarity with the Japanese industry.

Agreed, though. Epic AAR, it's been a pleasure to read (a couple pages of) both sides ;).

(in reply to Grunt)
Post #: 6647
RE: another disaster - 3/12/2012 6:32:47 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grunt

I don't know my Q Factor from my Circle of Appollonius but I do know I enjoyed this AAR immensely. I declare Greyjoy the winner and think they should turn the chessboard around and play again from the other side. What do you guys think?


GJ is declared winner? Why? Because Rader bogged down his invasions and wiped out the Allied fleet? There are some factors why this happened but hey ho, declaring Rader losing (by saying GJ won) because of those factors would be too much.

_____________________________


(in reply to Grunt)
Post #: 6648
RE: another disaster - 3/12/2012 7:33:54 PM   
Grunt


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/17/2004
From: Idaho, USA
Status: offline 		I meant no disrespect to Rader. He played an outstanding game...surpassing anything I could have remotely accomplished. Both sides deserve tremendous credit. But I think a consensus (I could be wrong) is that GJ could have sat back and bombed Japanese industry to dust. But he chose to advance further, and take risks, to give us readers a more entertaining AAR.

And obviously I have no power to declare anybody anything. Just a bit of hyberbole.

< Message edited by Grunt -- 3/12/2012 7:35:09 PM >

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 6649
RE: another disaster - 3/13/2012 5:55:59 AM   
jeffs


Posts: 644
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Tokyo
Status: offline 		Yeah...But GJ could always just Nuke Japan when the time comes.....Forget about points...Any country that has 10 cities nuked is not a winner in my
world view...

_____________________________

To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

(in reply to Grunt)
Post #: 6650
RE: another disaster - 3/13/2012 11:48:21 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Those debating about who won or lost should bear in mind that GJ made a choice to invade Hoshu after securing Hokkaido to keep the game entertaining for all not because it was the wisest choice in regard to a method of winning. He could have sat back and strategic bombed Japan into oblivion, but wanted to present a more exciting game for all of those sitting ringside.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to jeffs)
Post #: 6651
RE: another disaster - 3/14/2012 1:30:02 AM   
vicberg

 

Posts: 1176
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

6. Finally, I honestly don't think there is a fix for this that would make everyone happy. Making everyone happy is tough enough, but in this case even if a battle like this were played out as historically as was possible I still think the respective players would be disappointed. Why? Because it would still be retarded armageddon.



How about limiting the sizes of airbases. Seems like a simple solution that works within the combat model? Level 9s don't hold an unlimited amount of planes. Forces distribution, causing greater coordination issues and less planes in combat.

(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 6652
RE: another disaster - 6/7/2012 2:22:46 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Bump.

I'm gonna PM GreyJoy and encourage him to return to the Forums.  He must've OD'd his first time around and sworn off the game...

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 6653
RE: another disaster - 6/7/2012 2:38:24 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		His GF probably forced him to marry or some other insanity!

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6654
RE: another disaster - 6/7/2012 2:41:25 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grunt

I don't know my Q Factor from my Circle of Appollonius but I do know I enjoyed this AAR immensely. I declare Greyjoy the winner and think they should turn the chessboard around and play again from the other side. What do you guys think?


GJ is declared winner? Why? Because Rader bogged down his invasions and wiped out the Allied fleet? There are some factors why this happened but hey ho, declaring Rader losing (by saying GJ won) because of those factors would be too much.


BTW) Castor Troy .. the last devastating raid on the Allies was a combination of game engine inadequacy [Rader flew over multiple bases to stage aricraft in the rear and then lauched the second day ] and using the 2-day turn .. then the "Q-factor" as "the elf"frames it -- resulted in Allied fighters not engaging resulting in a most bizzare result ... the dialogue after that pushed Grey Joy away from the game ..

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 6655
RE: another disaster - 6/12/2012 12:23:11 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I wanted to post excerpt from a message I received from GJ today. I posted this in another thread about GJ, but it needs to be here also. I didn't receive permission from GJ to post this publicly. I'm sure he wouldn't mind, but for the sake of caution I will summarize most of the message and only quote those parts directly aimed at the Forum community

"Hi Dan!

Well, you're right. I've been MIA for a lot of months... it's been a strange 2012 so far for me...[here GJ goes into some detail about how hectic 2012 has been for him, in particular do to some very good but demanding things at work].

....Anyway, i'm seeing a little llight at the end of the tunnell and maybe, by the end of summer, i'll be able to start living again like a normal human being (finger crossed)!

Thanks a lot for your kind words Dan...i have to admit that often my mind goes back thinking at those great days of the epic match with Rader...the forum...the AAR thread...the excitement of making secret plans... and all those good friends i've met there... that place is simply magical...

I thank you a lot for remembering me. I haven't forgotten you either! It's been a pleasure to meet you (unfortunately only virtually) and a priviledge to been considered part of this great community.

I hope to get back anytime soon...even if only to say hello.

Please, bring to the guys on the forum my best whishes and tell them....SCOOOODRAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ciao my friend!

Nic

Long live Scoodra indeed!

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 6656
Officially OVER - 6/13/2012 5:09:08 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		Hi guys,

i think you all deserve a frank and pubblic declaration.

This game between me and Rader is officially over.

After more than 4 months of halt, our energies, our wills, are completely overwhelmed by real lifes necessities.
Personally i feel i don't have any more "fuel" left to play this game (not only this match).... probably i will get back on it, but not anytime soon...

I take this chance to thank, from the deep of my heart, all of you for the amazing journey we've had togheder.
This AAR has been an incredible experience for me and that's just because of you. Every single one of you.
Readers, lurkers, contributors, "affecionados". Everyone. You've been great and, for what it's worth, i really feel bound to this Community after this amazing year spent togheder.

Today i sat down and read back few pages of this thread.... man, what a trip!!!

We've laughed, we've cried, we've fought, we have critizied, we have warned.... but, above all, we became friends (i know, virtual friends, not real friends...blah blah blah...well, you know what i mean).

I should thank each of you personally....but i'll forget for sure too many names...

Just know that, for me, this has been one of the best social experience i've ever had (well, as you now, auto-herotism isn't included in this list).

Thanks, again.

And a special thanks goes to Rader...the best opponent i could ever dream to have. A partner more than an opponent....and, above all, a friend.

Who won?..... in Italy we should say "STICAZZI CHI HA VINTO"....which could be translated in something like "WHO GIVES A F.U.C.K. who have won!?" ....we had fun, and that's what it only matters.

See u around guys!

GJ

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6657
RE: Officially OVER - 6/13/2012 5:29:14 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		Thanks GJ. It was a very fun ride!

All the best for your upcoming trials and we do hope to see you again one day.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6658
RE: Officially OVER - 6/13/2012 5:36:01 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Personally, I insist that everybody agree with me that GJ won! 

The AE community is still vibrant and hopefully will produce many more epics in comnig years, but i wonder if "The Power of Inexperience" will be the AAR that all others will be judged by, just as "Small Ship, Big War" was for WitP?

Of course, there is room for other nominations:  "Beer Made Me Do It", "The Dark Side of the Moon," anything authored by Cap Mandrake, and lots of other AARs have been mighty interesting.

GJ's current situation reminds me of the experiences of Grotius, another person who loved the game, but perhaps loved it so much he flamed out. Grotius comes back on occasion.  He even tries to get back into the game.  But each time he quickly fades away. 

Here's hoping GJ rejoins at some propitious time down the road.  Salute!

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6659
RE: Officially OVER - 6/13/2012 8:57:16 PM   
khyberbill


Posts: 1941
Joined: 9/11/2007
From: new milford, ct
Status: offline
quote:

Personally, I insist that everybody agree with me that GJ won!


GreyJoy did show that no matter how far down the Allied player can be driven, and he was driven hard and then put away wet, they can come back considering the amount of material they get in late war.

I personally hope you come back, make a lot of critical mistakes in the early game and then..... some more spelling bee times!

_____________________________

"Its a dog eat dog world Sammy and I am wearing Milkbone underwear" -Norm.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6660
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