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OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg

 
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OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/20/2012 10:12:10 PM   
Canoerebel


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(I am interested in your opinions - rather than opinions from the "General" Matrix forums - because I know most of you and therefore know the reliablity of what you might post).

Who do you think was most culpible for the Confederate defeat at Gettysburg?

Shortly after the war, Jubal Early blamed Longstreet for failing to move with alacrity on the right flank on the second day of the battle.

A bit later, Longstreet had some pretty harsh criticism of Lee in choosing to fight an offensive battle when the circumstance, so Longstreet thought, called for a defensive battle.

Today, I think the weight of opinion is that Ewell carries the most blame in failing to attack the Union left on Cemetery Hill at the close of the first day.

We just received a manuscript at the magazine I work for intimating that Jubal Early is most culpable. This caught me by surprise and I'm trying to figure out if the writer has a legitimate theory. He says Early failed miserably in attacking Cemetery Hill on day two. But I've always felt that Early had a nearly impossble task - assaulting a well-dug-in enemy on the high ground.

Do any of you guys think Early is at fault? Or do you think that's a real stretch?

If not Early, who then? (I say Ewell, but that may be a shallow adoption of a commonly accepted but not necessarily well thought out theory).
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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/20/2012 10:19:27 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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Interesting post Canoerebel. For a Canadian, I have read quite abit on the Civil War, Foote and Catton being the main ones. Do you think blame can be laid at the door of any one Confederate General? My gut feeling would be to they were all at fault at some point during the battle, as they all seemed to have dropped the ball when called upon to make the proper decision on any of the three days of the battle.

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/20/2012 10:33:53 PM   
Canoerebel


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As a complex and dramatic battle, there might have been dozens of "turning points" or decisive moments - you know, the kind of thing where "for want of a nail the shoe was lost..."

I think history proved Longstreet right - that a defensive battle would have been better.  So Lee might take blame on the operational level.  But Ewell deserves a healthy dose of blame.  Had Stonewall Jackson - dead just six weeks - been available the battle might have been very, very different.

In the end, though, George Pickett was problably right when he said, 'I think the Yankees had something to do with it."

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 3/20/2012 10:35:23 PM >

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/20/2012 10:36:53 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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I suppose you mean tactically because the valid quesiton of whether Lee should have fought any battle in that incursion is open. But that's a different article.

I'd also have to review my history books and ponder your question about who lost it, but I can tell you, after living here for almost twenty years, that Minnesotans are pretty sure who won it--the First Minnesota Volunteer, on the second day, on Cemetary Ridge. They took 83% casualties, still the highest in US history I believe, and their flag rests in the state Capitol.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 3/20/2012 10:38:44 PM >


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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/20/2012 11:18:51 PM   
Canoerebel


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Pfft!  Minnesota.

Most of you gents may know that Pickett's Charge is said to have represented the High Water Mark of the Confederacy.  That is, it was all downhill from that point to the end of the war.

I don't think many people are aware that a Georgia brigade covered the same ground that Pickett did, but a day earlier.  In fact, Wright's Georgia Brigade possibly went just a bit further.

Georgia, Virginia and North Carolina contributed the most troops to the Confederate militiary (no surprise, since those were probably the three most populous CSA states).  But Pickett's Charge was comprised almost entirely of Virginians and Tar Heels (with a smattering of other states, including Tennessee and Alabama, thrown in).  But there were no Georgians involved, unless you count Longstreet and Col. Porter Alexander, who commanded the artillery barrage that preceded the charge. 

Most or all of the Georgia brigades were too depleted from fighting on the first and second days of the battle, while Pickett's Charge was made up mostly of fresh or rested units.  So Georgia brigades like those of Wright, Benning, Gordon, Thomas, Doles, Anderson, and Semmes weren't involved.

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/20/2012 11:31:11 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Pfft!  Minnesota.

Most of you gents may know that Pickett's Charge is said to have represented the High Water Mark of the Confederacy.  That is, it was all downhill from that point to the end of the war.



Pfft, sir? I pfft you in return and raise you a small history lesson:

"July 2-3, 1863 – BATTLE OF GETTYSBURG
During the second day (July 2,’62), the Confederates had broken through Sickles’ position. With a failed attempt at rallying Sickles’ men, General Winfield S. Hancock had ordered the First that was held in reserve nearby to counterattack and fill the gap in the Union line until reinforcements could arrive. During the attack, three companies ‘C’, ‘F’, and 2nd Minnesota Sharpshooters Co. ‘L’, totaling some 73 men, had been detached. Out of the 262 men remaining that attacked to delay the rebs and restore the Union position, 215 were killed, wounded, or missing. Earlier in the day, Col. Wm. Colville had been relieved of arrest and resumed command the regiment. Gen. W.S. Hancock whose order “Colonel, do you see those colors?” (pointing at the advancing Confederate forces) “Then take them!”, later stated:

“I had no alternative but to order the regiment in. We had no force on hand to meet the sudden emergency. Troops had been ordered up and were coming on the run, but I saw that in some way five minutes must be gained or we were lost. It was fortunate that I found there so grand a body of men as the First Minnesota. I knew they must lose heavily and it caused me pain to give the order for them to advance, but I would have done it (even) if I had known every man would be killed. It was a sacrifice that must be made. The superb gallantry of those men saved our line from being broken. No soldiers on any field, in this or any other country, ever displayed grander heroism.”

Bruce Catton stated in Glory Road:

“The whole war had suddenly come to a focus in this smoky hollow, with a few score westerners trading their lives for the time the army needed…They had not captured the flag that Hancock had asked them to capture, but they still had their own flag and a great name…”

Lt. Col. Joseph B. Mitchell in his Decisive Battles of the Civil War stated:

“There is no other unit in the history of warfare that ever made such as charge and then stood its ground sustaining such losses.”

The attacking Confederate forces consisted of Wilcox’s Brigade, Anderson’s Division, A.P. Hill’s Corps. Wilcox had begun the days fighting with some 1,800 men in his unit although it is not known exactly how many were left at the time of the action with the First Minnesota. There are also indications that the 39th and 11th New York Regiments began the attack on the left of the First, while the 19th Mass. and 42nd New York were on the regiments right. In all these instances these supporting units fell back before completing the charge so that the First went in on its own. The First Minnesota has the distinction of sustaining the highest regimental losses in any battle, in proportion to the number engaged, in the Civil War.

On July 3rd the First found itself on the receiving end of Pickett’s charge. Co’s ‘C’ and ‘F’ had rejoined by this time and another 45 men became casualties. Thus by the end of the battle 64 men had been killed and 160 men wounded for a total of 224 casualties. By the end of July, Regimental strength stood at 175 men, but this included some of the slightly wounded who had returned to duty by this time. On top of such losses for the battle the First did manage to share in the glory of the Union Victory. Pvt. Marshall Sherman of Co. ‘C’ had captured the 28th Virginia’s colors and Cpl. Henry O’Brien spurred on the men with the colors and its shattered staff. Both would later receive the Medal of Honor for their feats."

http://www.firstminnesota.org/history/first.html

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/20/2012 11:35:04 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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I used to play a computer game on Gettysburg by the title of "Sid Meier's Gettysburg" and even joined a clan to play multiplayer battles. I think my callsign was Clayton, as we were limited to officers from Tennessee since that was the pretense for the clan. We were the AOT (Army ot Tennessee) Clan. Playing that game was a great way to learn about the individual brigades and their leaders. Too bad it was Windows 95, I'd love to still be able to fire it up. I played almost every night while attending a technical college.

Earlier than that I used to play the Avalon Hill boardgame "Gettysburg" base on an actual topographic survey of the battlefield. It was a monster game but again a great way to learn about the terrain and battle as it developed.

I remember years ago seeing a diorama on the battle. The owner showed various actions from all three days of the battle and used over 10,000 figures on his display. He actually used cardboard to build up his terrain based on the map from the game I mentioned above. One layer of cardboard was 20' I believe. He had the topo all done perfectly and resin streams and the entire Town of Gettysburg built up. It really was an amazing display.

Sorry for the hijack. I just really enjoy the whole history of the Civil War and the Battle of Gettysburg in particular. A lot of my interest in history has been influenced by a number of wargames over the years, and I'm finding WitP AE is no different. I've never read as many books as I have now on the Pacific War since playing this game.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 3/20/2012 11:40:51 PM >


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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/20/2012 11:42:02 PM   
LST Express


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I'm not qualified to place blame but in my opinion the battle was lost on day one when the high ground was taken by the Union army.  After going there and walking the grounds, it's hard for me to imagine the Army of Northern Virginia ever taking those positions. But I'm curious to hear what you more knowledgeable guys have to say about it.

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/20/2012 11:44:02 PM   
Canoerebel


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Okay, Bullwinkle, I suppose I need to acknowledge that Minnesotans did play an important role in the battle.  For one thing, Wright's Brigade was one of those involved in the "breakthrough" referred to in your reference:  "During the second day (July 2,’62), the Confederates had broken through Sickles’ position." 

On that note, had the Union managed to lose at Gettysburg, Sickles would have taken a fair bit of the blame.  For reasons unknown, he advanced his division well to the front of the Union MLR on the second day of the battle.  His division got mauled as a result.  (He was primarily a political appointment, so he had little military training).

But the Minnesota troops were some stout men.  Darn them.

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 12:17:17 AM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

Do any of you guys think Early is at fault? Or do you think that's a real stretch?

If not Early, who then? (I say Ewell, but that may be a shallow adoption of a commonly accepted but not necessarily well thought out theory).


In my view the problem lay with Stuart. The main chance to unhinge Meade came on Day 1, but absent any sort of recon it was a meeting engagement that combined discovery of opponent's disposition with the moment of engagement. Once Meade had settled in, the Army of the Potomac was basically an immovable object.

But as to calling it a matter of blame... ultimately, Lee chose to make the fight on that ground against well prepared US forces on Day 2 and Day 3. I'd say that the blame lies with him. Day 3 was especially ill advised.

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 12:21:45 AM   
Sardaukar


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I am speaking very bluntly now:

This is totally OT, does not belong to forum about Pacific War, does not have anything to do with air, land or naval Pacific War. In addition, while military, it has bad habit to get into political discussion.

Lock this.



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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 12:26:53 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I am speaking very bluntly now:

This is totally OT, does not belong to forum about Pacific War, does not have anything to do with air, land or naval Pacific War. In addition, while military, it has bad habit to get into political discussion.

Lock this.




It's marked with an OT.

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 12:29:27 AM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I am speaking very bluntly now:

This is totally OT, does not belong to forum about Pacific War, does not have anything to do with air, land or naval Pacific War. In addition, while military, it has bad habit to get into political discussion.

Lock this.




It's marked with an OT.


As in past others that did degenerate to "****-fest"...


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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 12:36:00 AM   
JeffroK


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A long distance point of view, and I dont think there is an answer.

The battle was unplanned, was it Heth's Division which went to Gettyusburg looking for boots?

Stuarts absence meant that little recon (maybe why the Union left a Sqn sized cavalry unit with many Divisions) was done to ascertain Union movements.

For the South, Buford's Div was the wrong unit in the wrong place at the wrong time, an easy walk into Gettysburg and swipe the boots turned into a major engagement.

Its always possible to blame Divs/Corps for pushing hard enough on Day 1 or 2, how far had they marched and did they know what was ahead of them (we do, 150 years later) Again, were was the Cavalry.

I think Lee missed Jackson, his other Commanders pale into insignifigance.

Why not a slip to the right, copying Jackson's move at The Wilderness, again, where was Stuart plus a little less intel on enemy ground.

Pickets Charge was stupid, Lee should have cut his losses.

I think Lee erred in fighting this battle, he should have chosen his ground as at Antietam, even picking the right place for an attack.
Stuart is culpable for swanning off earning glory instead of being the eyes and ears of the Army, even detaching a Brigade might have made a major differance.
Lees Commanders were not exactly the epitome of being good subordinates.
Meade (or Hancock) found the right place to take on the South, and were lucky the South wasnt having its best days.

I dont know anyone is to blame, lots of people contributed to the failure of the Southern attacks and the succesful defense by the North, maybe you should blame Chamberlain!

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 12:44:58 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I am speaking very bluntly now:

This is totally OT, does not belong to forum about Pacific War, does not have anything to do with air, land or naval Pacific War. In addition, while military, it has bad habit to get into political discussion.

Lock this.




It's marked with an OT.


As in past others that did degenerate to "****-fest"...



Not always. I refer you to the thread right below this one, about the Elf on the Abe (Not marked 'OT' BTW.) That could go to the Iranian situation, but it probably won't. Just like htis one won't lead to a bunch of crazed rebels heading north with Rifles by WalMart. IMO of course.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 3/21/2012 12:47:41 AM >


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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 1:04:49 AM   
pmelheck1

 

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I also agree that failure to seize the high ground was not good for the south. Their is also more than enough mistakes to go around. I remember reading about a rifle that the union had that was an advantage at this battle as well. As for this being off topic I'm sure there others here who have other area's of historical interest besides WW2 in the pacific. Hopefully that interest in other history can keep any such discussion pleasant.

< Message edited by mullk -- 3/21/2012 1:07:44 AM >


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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 2:11:03 AM   
Blackhorse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

On that note, had the Union managed to lose at Gettysburg, Sickles would have taken a fair bit of the blame.  For reasons unknown, he advanced his division well to the front of the Union MLR on the second day of the battle.  His division got mauled as a result.  (He was primarily a political appointment, so he had little military training).


Sickles' advance made sense, in isolation. He advanced to more defensible terrain (Cemetery ridge petered out just north of his assigned position). IIRC, he consulted with reknowned Union artillerist Henry Hunt before shifting his position. Sickles' unforgivable military error was in not first getting permission from Gen'l Meade, or at least coordinating with Hancock to his right before moving forward into a position with his 'flanks in the air.'

To your original question, I'd find it hard to blame Early for failing to take Culp's Hill on day 2. There were weaknesses in the Union position, particularly south of the hill, but the whole Union army was near there in a bunch, and reinforcements could have been rushed to conatain any CSA breakthrough. Whatever Meade's failings on that battlefield, he was quick to reinforce threatened sectors.

If we're looking to apportion blame for missed opportunities, I'd go with 1) Ewell for failing to pursue the broken XIth Corps on Day 1, 2) Stuart, for his third attempt to ride around the Union Army, 3) -- as much as I hate to say it -- Lee, for ignoring Longstreet's advice to march around Meade's southern flank, and for asking too much of his men on the third day.


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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 2:14:01 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

(I am interested in your opinions - rather than opinions from the "General" Matrix forums - because I know most of you and therefore know the reliablity of what you might post).

Who do you think was most culpible for the Confederate defeat at Gettysburg?

Shortly after the war, Jubal Early blamed Longstreet for failing to move with alacrity on the right flank on the second day of the battle.

A bit later, Longstreet had some pretty harsh criticism of Lee in choosing to fight an offensive battle when the circumstance, so Longstreet thought, called for a defensive battle.

Today, I think the weight of opinion is that Ewell carries the most blame in failing to attack the Union left on Cemetery Hill at the close of the first day.

We just received a manuscript at the magazine I work for intimating that Jubal Early is most culpable. This caught me by surprise and I'm trying to figure out if the writer has a legitimate theory. He says Early failed miserably in attacking Cemetery Hill on day two. But I've always felt that Early had a nearly impossble task - assaulting a well-dug-in enemy on the high ground.

Do any of you guys think Early is at fault? Or do you think that's a real stretch?

If not Early, who then? (I say Ewell, but that may be a shallow adoption of a commonly accepted but not necessarily well thought out theory).



Early should get a good portion of the blame for convincing Ewell that assualting Cemetary Hill on the first day was "not practicable". Ewell was still rather unsure of himself as a Corps Commander, and leaned on Early for advice.

Lee should be blaimed for letting Stuart go running off on his own, and for forgetting to bring up his other three Cavalry Brigades to make up for Stuart's absense. And if he REALLY wanted Cemetary Hill taken on the first day, he should have gone in person and ordered Ewell to move. Overall, Longstreet was probably right that the Confederates should have sought a defensive battle once on Northern soil.

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 2:28:52 AM   
BeastieDog


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Lee - against interior lines on high ground - should have passed

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 2:50:28 AM   
Capt Cliff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I suppose you mean tactically because the valid quesiton of whether Lee should have fought any battle in that incursion is open. But that's a different article.

I'd also have to review my history books and ponder your question about who lost it, but I can tell you, after living here for almost twenty years, that Minnesotans are pretty sure who won it--the First Minnesota Volunteer, on the second day, on Cemetary Ridge. They took 83% casualties, still the highest in US history I believe, and their flag rests in the state Capitol.


Hey Bullwinkle, the 1st Minnesota held the line at Plum Run on the 2nd day, that is a bit north of the Devils Den and east of the Wheat Field. A single Union regiment took on a full brigade (Wilcox's I think)an stop them. Definitely the last full measure of devotion.

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 2:52:35 AM   
tocaff


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Outnumbered, outgunned, against dug in interior lines on high ground clearly called for a pass.  Offensive attacks were horribly bloody affairs. Lee should have moved the army off towards Washington forcing the Meade to follow.  He then could have picked some terrain and fought what he did best, a defensive battle. 


< Message edited by tocaff -- 3/21/2012 2:54:22 AM >


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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 3:08:59 AM   
JeffroK


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But,

The Southern Armies under Lee had been whipping the Union Armies prior to this, what changed!!

A better commander, Better defensive terrain, the Southern Armies were starting to tire, No Jackson.

PS If a mod wants to stop the thread, great, I wish everyone else would leave it to them.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 3/21/2012 3:13:24 AM >


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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 3:22:21 AM   
FDRLincoln


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A frontal assault on a prepared position: bad idea. Lee was the commander, the ultimate responsibility was his.

As for Sickles, he was physically brave and had some decent military instincts but he was a political appointee, untrained and impetuous. If he had been a trained soldier, he would probably have been an effective general. IIRC, his concern about the high ground in front of him was because his troops had suffered losses in a previous battle due to not having the high ground and he wanted to avoid a repeat of that. He was trying to do the right thing, but he didn't have the big picture in mind.







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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 3:26:58 AM   
FDRLincoln


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There was also an arrogance factor at work here, the idea that Southern soldiers were better than Northern ones. It wasn't true...the South had better generals early in the war, but when properly-led Union soldiers were just as effective.

Which sort of does get back to the Pacific War, doesn't it? You have one side with huge industrial capacity, and another side without it that tries to defeat the stronger power with bravery and bravado, but that eventually gets ground down once the bigger power is fully mobilized and properly led.

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 3:31:18 AM   
Chickenboy


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I don't consider myself an affectionado of the American Civil War. In fact, the subject is so distasteful to me that I have always had limited interest in studying its military ramifications (there were many) and history. Of the little that I do know of Gettysberg (and having been there a few times when I lived in PA), I agree with FDRLincoln.

Picket's charge across an open field, up a hill into fortified and prepared positions was folly. It should never have been ordered, let alone be the lynchpin for a Confederate plan. That it was ordered or attempted was Lee's fault. He gets the blame for it's failure.

"It's my fault, boys!" Damn straight.

Hear hear about the Minnesotans too. Stout men all.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 3/21/2012 3:33:34 AM >


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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 3:37:54 AM   
FDRLincoln


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I concur with Chickenboy in regards to this topic. Dangerous to comment further.

Rock Chalk Jayhawk.

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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 3:42:34 AM   
Canoerebel


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Thanks for insightful comments, gents, including one thoughtful PM on the subject.

I take from this a general feeling (from a variety of people ranging from barely familiar with the Civil War to men who are on a first name basis with everything that happened at Gettsyburg) that Lee, while a truly great man, made a serious error in judgment in attacking; that some of his generals contributed - Stuart and Ewell being the chief candidates, with Early, Heth and possibly A.P. Hill on a smaller scale.

I will look much more carefully at the allegation (made by the writer of the story submitted to our magazine) that Early was responsible. Unless I find some credible allegations out there, I'm going to ask the writer to back off that a bit and just say that more generally that Early jumped on Longstreet, but not to go so far as to suggest that Early lost the battle (I just don't see any way that claim can be made).

Also interesting to see how highly Longstreet is regarded by the AE forumites. He was reviled in the South in the late 1800s and first two-thirds of the 19th century, but his reputation seems to have been rehabilitated, in no small part due to Killer Angels, which is uncommonly beautiful writing (that book is literature).

I also take from this discussion a reinforced opinion that people have a deep appreciation for the Civil War and for the men involved.

Thank you, gents, for chiming in.


(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 27
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 3:47:08 AM   
FDRLincoln


Posts: 744
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From: Lawrence, KS
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I have considerable regard for Lee, but he messed up here. And he realized it himself, as the "it's my fault!" quotation shows.

This is one of the great tragedies of war and why it is something to be avoided. Even a great general can have a bad day, and thousands suffer and die for it.

I much prefer my wars on computer. :). Much better that way.

< Message edited by FDRLincoln -- 3/21/2012 3:49:33 AM >


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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 28
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 5:06:18 AM   
Spook043

 

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This certainly is stepping off the beaten path of usual "Who did what right & wrong in various Pacific operations," but what the hey....

Was an earlier time (before wife & kids) that I paid multiple visits to the Gettysburg battlefield to have a look-see and get a sense of the terrain and vantage points. Funny thing, though, in the more recent years with much done in landscaping and clearing to restore some of the battletime appearance, that I still haven't gotten over.

Anyway, for anyone wanting to get into reviewing the command decision perspective, Edwin Coddington's "The Gettysburg Campaign" is required reading. Some of its info is dated (first print was the 1960's), but the late Coddington mined down deep IMO on the notable decision points, as well as pointing out some others often papered over.

Case in point of Ewell: so often the view is of whether or not Ewell should have pressed on to take Cemetery Hill in the later hours of 1 July. Given that Early felt his division was too "disrupted" moving through Gettysburg's streets, I actually don't hold much against Ewell not pressing Early to push on. If anything, Lee could just as well pressed harder with the divisions of Johnson (Ewell) and Anderson (Hill) that had come up that same late afternoon and evening from Chambersburg Pike and the northwest. What I do hold against Ewell was his insistence to maintain an extended frontage that stretched out his corps. At one point on the night of 1/2 July, Lee actually ordered for Ewell to pull back and reform further to the south, more along Longstreet's argued scheme. Ewell, not wanting to "give up ground," offered to Lee that he would "demonstrate" aggressively on his front the next day during Longstreet's expected push, and Lee relented. Coddington noted all of this.

As to Stuart -- allowing for all the circumstances against him, his ultimate command discretion fell short. He should have recognized, especially with a campaign into unfamiliar Union territory, that the greater bulk of the ANV cavalry was supposed to function as a screen for Lee's columns (and thus maintained contact throughout) instead of slowing leveraging into being an oversized, unwieldly raiding party. However, one myth to dispel is of Lee being completly "blind." He did hold back some cav brigades from Stuart, and one such was even attached direct to Ewell. Yet, ironically, even those cav units available to Lee at the critical time before midday of 2 July were not used very aggressively at feeling out where Meade was and where he wasn't.

I think much of what was done postwar to pin blame on Longstreet was ridiculous. But "Ol' Pete" doesn't quite get a free pass either. His march and countermarch on 2 July was just plain clumsy and wasted too much time. Longstreet felt when being spotted from Little Round Top that he had to backtrack his whole corps (instead of just having the column "about face"), but his artillery chief Alexander didn't backtrack his own artillery but was able to find and use a backslope path that kept his own column covered.

But ultimately to Lee, his was the responsibility to get his commanders moving when he resolved to stay engaged. Some sources hold that Lee had taken ill on 2 July, and that has to be allowed for if true. But the way that time was just burned away on 2 July in the way that it was did the most to decide the battle's ultimate outcome. Even the Union 6th Corps had come up before Longstreet started attacking that day. Fairly said in hindsight, it would've been better to press immediately in the early morning of the 2nd from Seminary Ridge right towards Cemetery Hill. That morning was particularly foggy, and the "Sunken Lane" running southwest of Gettysburg could have afforded some cover before closing the final distance to the Union positions there.

Again, though, many things can seem more obvious in hindsight.

Pickett had one inspired comment about how the CSA lost at Gettysburg. "I think the Yankees had something to do about it." They did indeed. Sure, some like Sickles had their missteps. But many a Union leader rose to the occasion at the critical moment, all up and down the field, on each day. The Union troops and commanders showed themselves too tough a nut to crack on this field. And after the Union army's consolidation by the afternoon of 2 July, the best chances for Confederate victory had gotten by. Allowing Sickles' mistake of extending himself and the collateral damage to Union 2nd & 5th Corps to shore things up, the reserves and interior lines still favored Union recovery.

Not that victory was absolutely impossible for the CSA after midday on 2 July. War still allows for those outlier events. Just that the probabilities for success went down a sharp downslope afterwards.

And that ultimately was Lee's responsibility. IMO.

(in reply to FDRLincoln)
Post #: 29
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/21/2012 5:52:22 AM   
Torplexed


Posts: 305
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: The Pacific
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FDRLincoln

Which sort of does get back to the Pacific War, doesn't it? You have one side with huge industrial capacity, and another side without it that tries to defeat the stronger power with bravery and bravado, but that eventually gets ground down once the bigger power is fully mobilized and properly led.


Alas. The poor Japanese couldn't count on war weariness to put a peace candidate into office as the Confederates hoped would happen.


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