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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/27/2012 10:18:06 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 61

German armament Pts in pool: 0
German manpower in pool: 65,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 140
SHC units in a pocket: 4
Enemy KIA this turn: 72,000 Enemy KIA: 5,522,000
SHC OOB: 6,927,000
SHC net OOB change: +38,000
GHC KIA this turn: 35,000 GHC KIA:2,187,000
GHC OOB: 3,313,000
GHC net OOB change: -27,000

AGC: I Corp. and 4th PG starts pushing to striaghten the lines toward Moscow. The one down side to going all rifle divisions and tank Corp. is that the Russian lines can be easly pushed back along any front, if the German player wants to push for a single objective. I can attack about 20 times per turn vs divisional stacks and my OOB will grow 12k to 15k per turn. It would appear to me a more balanced approach would be better.





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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/27/2012 10:22:53 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		AGS: Offensive operations almost complete.

By the first snow turn I should have 4 lines of level 2 and 3 forts from the land bridge south. 2 belts of the Western Wall and 2 belts at front lines.
I will also have a reserve of 2 full Infantry Corp. for plugging holes and 5 Panzer Corp. for counter attacking.




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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/1/2012 3:24:14 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 62

German armament Pts in pool: 0
German manpower in pool: 65,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 144
SHC units in a pocket:
Enemy KIA this turn: 60,000 Enemy KIA: 5,580,000
SHC OOB: 6,971,000
SHC net OOB change: +41,000
GHC KIA this turn: 18,000 GHC KIA:2,205,000
GHC OOB: 3,325,000
GHC net OOB change: +12,000

AGN: The push for Moscow begins. I started out operations to gain some space, but seeing it was so easy to push around 8421 units and keep my OOB growing or static I have desided to push for Moscow and the 200ish manpower points in the area. 1/2 of 18th is here so the route the first row of hexes and mech units push another set of hexes east.
The rest of 18th will arrive over the next few turns along with several PZ Corp.

As I push east I will try for pockets on the flanks, but the first goal each turn is 2 hexes deep 3+ wide east. That should put me close to Moscow before mud. During mud and snow my high morale infantry units will take all replasements so they will be at 100% toe during city assault. Max poineers, artillary and air support. I will assault the city during blizzard as rivers will be froozen. Looks like 8421 is getting about 120,000 replasements per turn so that should take 15,000 at least off the replasements per turn.

Thats the plan anyways.




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< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/1/2012 3:25:55 PM >

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/1/2012 3:27:08 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		AGS finishes off pocket and starts digging in.




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Post #: 124
RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/1/2012 3:37:13 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 63

German armament Pts in pool: 0
German manpower in pool: 65,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 144
SHC units in a pocket:
Enemy KIA this turn: 28,000 Enemy KIA: 5,608,000
SHC OOB: 7,040,000
SHC net OOB change: +70,000
GHC KIA this turn: 15,000 GHC KIA:2,220,000
GHC OOB: 3,335,000
GHC net OOB change: +10,000

Most of the front lines I would like for 42/43 winter are in my hands. My OOB is rising about 10k per turn. 5 panzer Corp and 4 Infantry Corp. are being refitted for counter attacking from Tula South.
I am hoping to trade the buffer in center over the winter fort belt at front will be 2 deep before mud. As I retreat to the Wall my lines will shorten. The 30 divisions in reserve will be used to counter the standard blob push in center most Russians use to push past fort belts.

Then hold fast at the western wall unit until 1944, the wall is 2 deep alrdy of forts. German OOB grows quickly during 43.


The Drive on Moscow started last turn and seems to be driving forward nicely.

I should be able to conduct 10 -12 attacks per turn and keep OOB growing. These attacks will keep my morale up also.
The main objectives are the 171 manpower points between the Moscow front and the towns close to Moscow itself. At this time 8421 is receiving about 100k-120k replacements per turn, before any kind of loses. The loss of the manpower points would be a large hit over the rest of the war.
About 160 hexes need to be flipped.




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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/2/2012 1:03:23 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 64

German armament Pts in pool: 5000
German manpower in pool: 65,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 144
SHC units in a pocket:
Enemy KIA this turn: 37,000 Enemy KIA: 5,645,000
SHC OOB: 7,099,000
SHC net OOB change: +59,000
GHC KIA this turn: 17,000 GHC KIA:2,237,000
GHC OOB: 3,350,000
GHC net OOB change: +15,000

AGC forses drive another 20 miles towards Moscow and more forses arrive at the front. Both OOB's are growing at a steady pase.




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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/4/2012 7:23:02 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 65

German armament Pts in pool: 5000
German manpower in pool: 42,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 144
SHC units in a pocket:
Enemy KIA this turn: 36,000 Enemy KIA: 5,681,000
SHC OOB: 7,198,000
SHC net OOB change: +90,000
GHC KIA this turn: 26,000 GHC KIA:2,253,000
GHC OOB: 3,351,000
GHC net OOB change: +1,000

AGC another 2 miles closer.






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Post #: 127
RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/4/2012 7:24:31 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		AGS pushing south east to see if I cant straighten lines a little.




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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/7/2012 5:44:59 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 66

German armament Pts in pool: 5000
German manpower in pool: 42,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 144
SHC units in a pocket: 11
Enemy KIA this turn: 53,000 Enemy KIA: 5,734,000
SHC OOB: 7,136,000
SHC net OOB change: -60,000
GHC KIA this turn: 29,000 GHC KIA:2,282,000
GHC OOB: 3,347,000
GHC net OOB change: -4,000

AGN units push another 20 miles closer to Moscow.




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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/9/2012 1:25:49 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 67

German armament Pts in pool: 5000
German manpower in pool: 42,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 144
SHC units in a pocket: 11
Enemy KIA this turn: 50,000 Enemy KIA: 5,780,000
SHC OOB: 7,157,000
SHC net OOB change: 20,000
GHC KIA this turn: 38,000 GHC KIA:2,320,000
GHC OOB: 3,326,000
GHC net OOB change: -20,000

The Battle for Moscow rages on! 8421 makes a thrust on the northern side and gets a breakthrough with 5 tank Corp.

On the south side he reopens the pocketed infantry units.

At the front of the bulge the German units are only 20 miles from Moscow!

This SS is before my moves.




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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/9/2012 1:36:39 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		After my moves 8421 tank thrust is cut off again and infantry sealed off.

This is I beleive the 8th tank/cav breakthrough 8421 has tried and all have ended in the loss of many Corps. 20+ anyways.

I am very very happy to have removed all these units before late 43. Not sure what the effect will be, but cant be anything but good for me.

I am guessing i the past this has worked for him. With mud around the corner I will be preparing my mech units to make counter attacks vs this tactic 8421 can't seem to stop himself from doing over and over to my delight.

The game is in the balence for sure. As the prize Moscow is so close, but yet very far away.

I am going to have to retool 18th army at somepoint to make the final push during 43 and move 1/2 my panzer units area to take adavantage of these tank thrust I am 100% sure I will be seeing during blizzard.




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< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/9/2012 1:39:01 AM >

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/9/2012 11:27:28 AM   
Josh

 

Posts: 2576
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline 		Balanced or not it's a darn creepy SS ... your opponent can afford his losses, whereas if he succeeds in that encirclement...  He probably won't, but still quite a hair raising situation you've got there.

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Post #: 132
RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/9/2012 12:15:05 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 68

German armament Pts in pool: 5000
German manpower in pool: 52,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 148
SHC units in a pocket: 4
Enemy KIA this turn: 120,000 Enemy KIA: 5,853,000
SHC OOB: 7,158,000
SHC net OOB change: ,000
GHC KIA this turn: 23,000 GHC KIA:2,353,000
GHC OOB: 3,295000
GHC net OOB change: -30,000

All five tank Corp. are destoryed and 4 rifle divisions completely cut off. The down side for 8421 is yet another loss of trucks and tanks, but he was able to stop the march east as my forses had to wipe out the counter attack and sure up the flanks before mud hits.

Also strong russian forses are building up east of Rzhev, 1 infantry corp and 2 panzer corp are moving to this area to sure it up before mud.

Once the 4 rifle divisions are gone next turn this will shorten the front and free up some units I can move to the north side of the operation.

Most of the front north and south of The Battle for Moscow is quite other then the sound of shovels digging and units refitting.




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< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/9/2012 12:17:07 PM >

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/10/2012 2:47:27 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Game will be on hold until they get server fixed, I have played turn 67 several times, turn 68 a few, turn 69 and turn 70.

Game is now back on turn 68 again.

Guess I will take a 1 week time out until they can get the server protected.

Each reset goes back to turn 68, can anyone say GROUND HOG DAY!!






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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/11/2012 2:19:24 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 69

German armament Pts in pool: 5000
German manpower in pool: 52,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 152
SHC units in a pocket:
Enemy KIA this turn: 65,000 Enemy KIA: 5,915,000
SHC OOB: 7,191,000
SHC net OOB change: 33,000
GHC KIA this turn: 20,000 GHC KIA:2,373,000
GHC OOB: 3,315,000
GHC net OOB change: 20,000

M60
Turn 69
Russian units destroyed after November 1st 1941= 190
Russian Total dead: 6,322,000
Russian OOB: 6,116,00
GHC OOB: 3,583,000

M60 had the better 41, but was not able to follow up with a good 42.
8421 had a poor 41, but was able to strip units and had a good layered defence during 42.
M60 loss about 400,000 more units and his OOB is about 1,000,000 less. I am guessing a big part of the difference is 8421 was able to hang onto more manpower centers as both players lost next to nothing in armament pts.

Q-ball and a few others have games in AAR's that are very similar to my game vs 8421. Only difference is I have kept attacking until mud season as they went over to the defensive mid summer.

The main thing I am learning from these games is Moscow is there for the taking come 42. I should have gone for it first thing. I would have easly taken it seeing how easy it is to push around this rifle divisions layered defence late summer. There are costs for sure, but if you have to push as the German you should just go right for Moscow first thing. With out 20 or so rifle corps there is no way Moscow can be held during 42 with only rifle divisions/ tank and cav Corp.

I still might be able to take it before January, but its not looking to good at this point.

I was able to hold 8421 OOB static during 42 and mine has done the same. I gained some space and have 4 layers of forts form Vyazma to Azov sea. If I would have stopped attacking in mid 42 8421 army would be at 8,000,000 +. German moral is high from top to bottom with only a hand full of units under 70 Moral.

I have set fort toe to 100%. Before the end of mud all with be at 100%. At that pt I will set it to 50 an all replacements during winter will go to front lines.

German OOB will grow quickly, as units hit 90% toe and are in forts they will go over to static mode. I am going to try and hold lines east of the rivers units spring of 44. Lol that’s allot of turns heheh.





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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/11/2012 2:30:38 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		AGC: Several layers of forts. 2 Corp will be put in reserve come winter.

Hopefully over the winter I can keep 8421 just east of The Pelton Line. Once 43 summer hits I will us rivers ect as defensive lines.




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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/11/2012 2:33:30 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		AGS: Again atleast 4 layers of forts. This area alrdy has 4 Panzer Corp. in reserve, plus minor allies. Most of new infantry units will be sent into this area.

Goals are to hold 8421 east of rivers until summer of 1944.




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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/11/2012 2:34:08 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		The dead, dieing and cring.



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< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/11/2012 2:35:25 PM >

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/11/2012 2:34:56 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		OOB




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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/18/2012 2:41:28 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 75

Not much to report the last 5 turns. Both sides are getting ready for 1943.

I have completely reorganized my army from an offensive forse to a reserve mode counter attacking army.

Going with the standard package high initiative:
OKH 9
AG 8
Armys 7 or 8
Corps 7

4 panzer or mech per army.

My lines are a little long as per the bulge in center, but I can easly retreat to the Pelton Line behind it to shorten lines as needed.

I am saving up to 300 AP so I will be able to put 50 to 60 divisions in static mode and could if needed release everyone in a single turn.

Once I have the 300 saved I will start building the 1944 river line.

This up-date is 5 turns behind game so everything is in plase by now.

I also have a reserve behind the lines rdy to commit where needed.




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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/18/2012 2:50:00 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		This game kinda reminds me of my game vs Hoooper minus the 1v1=2v1 and my game vs Kamil minus the old manpower * numbers.

Be interesting to see how this plays out.

I pushed until late 42, unlike both Hoooper and Kamil keeping Russian OOB lower and over running more manpower centers.

I also know how to use reserve mode this game.

I am guessing based on past numbers a minor German win is out of the question unless 8421 really screws up.

I probably have a 33% chance of a draw, but I am just not sure.

I have tried going over to defensive in early 42 and mid 42 and both failed.

Should be a very interesting out come.

8421 only mistakes have been his tank breakthroughs and a poor 41, but he hung onto Moscow and knows better then most how to get the most rifle squads out of the red army.

Pelton

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/18/2012 5:16:06 PM   
henri51


Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline 		Six million Soviet losses - OUCH! Can the Soviets survive those kinds of losses? I was under the impression that a loss ratio of 10:1 would practically ensure a German victory, but you have 20:1!

Henri

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Post #: 142
RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/18/2012 5:49:07 PM   
Karri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

Six million Soviet losses - OUCH! Can the Soviets survive those kinds of losses? I was under the impression that a loss ratio of 10:1 would practically ensure a German victory, but you have 20:1!

Henri


It's 2 to 1, not 20 to 1.

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Post #: 143
RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/18/2012 7:01:19 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Its 2.49 to 1 which is about at the knifes edge as far as ratios go.

Game vs M60 the ratio is 3.01 to 1.

2 to 1 is clearly in Russian favor
2.5 to 1 is borderline
3 to 1 is clearly in German favor

These ratios are effected by armament and manpower pts over run also. Plus units pocketed after November 1st 1941.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/18/2012 7:04:10 PM >

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/18/2012 11:04:07 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri


quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

Six million Soviet losses - OUCH! Can the Soviets survive those kinds of losses? I was under the impression that a loss ratio of 10:1 would practically ensure a German victory, but you have 20:1!

Henri


It's 2 to 1, not 20 to 1.


Two to one losses and 3 million German losses -OUCH! Can the Germans afford such losses?

Henri

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Post #: 145
RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/20/2012 2:55:57 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Quick up-date. The front has been completely static for the last 8 turns.
But the 2nd turn of 1943 after buying infantry Corp. 8421 opened up his winter offensive at the spot I predicted ehehehe.

Not sure why 8421 desided to hit me here, but any ways.

His first attack he won, but the next 4 were all hold results. One hex he attacked twice and still lost heheh.

Turn 82 only: 1 retreat and 4 helds
SHC Loses: 17,260
GHC Loses: 4,370
Ratio: 3.97 to 1

I have been sending all my new units to this area for the last 6 turns heheh. Terrain up here make defending easy, you can't sapper out woods and swamps.

It is very early and I expect his forses to be balanced out better then they are and attacks to be in areas that are not so easly defended hehehe

I be posting a full run down every 10 turns starting turn 85. There will be a 3 or 4 turn delay as I have reserves that will be moving around looking for a nice spot to bag treats.





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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/20/2012 3:54:35 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Looking at the 5 battles

1 retreat had no reserve help, there WAS no units in reserve mode. A opps on my part.
1 held had no reserve help
3 helds had reserve help

Of the 4 battles that had units in reserve in same army and withen range thats a 75% success rate.

Not bad. I still do not have every single Corp and army at 7 yet.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/20/2012 3:56:44 PM >

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/21/2012 7:13:12 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Loss ratios are in of themselves meaningless. The true aim of the Soviet player is to stress the Axis replacement capacity and inflict losses beyond them so as to gradually diminish German strength.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/21/2012 8:11:14 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		All about moral really and not ratios or replasement capacity.

If your infantry have 100% toe and are under 60 moral they are usless vs stacks of 50 cv.

As I and others have tracked, it takes atleast 18 to 22 attacks per turn to lower German OOB. 15 wins 5 loss ect

Even then the OOB goes down slowly very slowly and is kind meanless also. Many times the German army is down to 3.1 to 3.3 million by end of 41 summer and blizzard, but moral is high and so is CV.

Its the hard wired German moral and the 5 to 7 russian wins per turn during 43 that destory the infantry CV before 44.

The major thing that matters is German moral, the rest of the stuff is minor.

8421 has done everything right to date other then throwing away 20 tank and cv corp. But I think hes learnt his leason and has them 10+ hexes from front training.
Hes just pounding hexs now striping moral some before 44 and tring to make the red bulge in line. Standard russian MO for cracking lines hehe.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/21/2012 8:14:29 PM >

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 3/21/2012 8:20:47 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Keys for German if you dont get a white flag in 41 or 42

1. manpower centers Moscow being the tipping point, lowers replasemnts from 120k per turn to under 100k
2. armament centers 80+ the effects are felt in 42.
3. AP crunch pocket 200+ units after nov 41
4. Russian player that builds wrong units.

Generally speaking 1 will not be enough for a long game win, but atleast 2.

1-3 delay the build up and starting of steam roller.
4 is a gift which again delays build-up and or speed of russian advance during 44 -45.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/21/2012 8:27:36 PM >

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