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RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/16/2012 11:53:34 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

Alfred: It appears to the TWITs that the NW hexside is both allied and Japanese contolled, Is this possible without an IJ LCU ever crossing that NW hexside?


For ownership purposes and the impact it has on the movement of LCUs from one hex to another hex, you have to think of inner and outer doors.

The Kukong hex has only a single NW hexside which is coloured red. That is the inner door. The hex (NB not the hexside) to the NW of Kukong, where the Chinese relief column is currently located, has its SE hexside coloured green. That is the outer door for the Kukong garrison.

It is the inner door ownership which determines the route a LCU can take.

There are two ways the NW Kukong hexside became red. Japan owned the Kukong hex first, in which all 6 hexsides automatically became red. This is not the case here as the base itself is Chinese owned. the other instance is that one Japanese unit marched in to Kukong from the NW, thereby gaining ownership of the inner door.

That inner door will remain Japanese until either a Chinese unit travels through the outer and inner doors, or the Kukong garrison totally ejects the enemy forces from Kukong, at which point all 6 inner door Kukong hexsides revert to green colour.

Alfred

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 541
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/17/2012 12:11:10 AM   
zuluhour


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Thanks Alfred (sticky note)
time for an advertisment.

Joe, keep a sharp eye on emperor; he's a tricky sort.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 542
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/17/2012 3:41:02 AM   
DOCUP


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The MKB will be watching empty ocean for awhile.  The only ships I have close to it is 2 DDs that are moving away from it.  The rest of my ships are at the moment under LBA.  If he wants to come in and take a shot, let him come. 

I just hope 70 4Es can do some damage to Kendri's AF.  I think I will try a fighter trap.  I want to put some more supply at Lautem.  Then bring in some fighters then bring in a small supply TFs and let him attack into my CAP.  I don't hold much hope for a nav bombardment.  I have never got them to work.

China
HMM  I will have to look at this closer now.  

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 543
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/17/2012 4:03:34 AM   
DOCUP


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Stuck at the In Laws House.  They are watching some stupid show.  Atleast I have the computer  So I am bored to death

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Post #: 544
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/17/2012 4:25:51 AM   
zuluhour


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70 4Es without escort will teach him a lesson. I like 9ooo'.

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Post #: 545
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/17/2012 4:08:50 PM   
zuluhour


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quote:

Stuck at the In Laws House


(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 546
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/17/2012 5:26:16 PM   
DOCUP


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3rd June

KB unknown
MKB NW coast of Oz

Hankow
Hit by our bombers.  Finally.  32 runway damage.

Changsha
Swept by 107 Oscars. 8 Oscars are shot down.  We lose 9 P40Es, 7 P40Bs, 6 P39s.  Some of the P40Es are fairly green with just arriveing in country.  Welcome to China boys.

Rangoon
Hit by our bombers.  2 Oscars shot down by B17Es.

Turk
US sub sinks a PB.

Derby
A TF is spotted close to Derby.  This is the first time this has happened the MKB is to far away to have spotted it.  I am also missing the TFs from yesterday.  Is the KB around?   Ops suspended for now. 

Darwin
APDs are running hard and the minor damage is showing on the ships.  Might have to stop for a day or so to get there damage down.

Adak
18 DBs with 40 fighters are present now.  With another 26 or so DBs close by.


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Post #: 547
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/17/2012 10:23:06 PM   
DOCUP


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Got interrupted during the last post.

Katha
4 bettys and 8 Sallys are shot down.

AF bombings
10 Oscars are torched on the field with 10 Babs.

Turk
Sub sinks a PB.  Thats 2 in 2 days.

Looking around I see that flak has destroyed 93 planes.  211 destroyed on the ground or in transport ships.  Almost 1,000 shot down A2A.

85 Japanese ships sunk.  Most of these have been sunk in the DEI.  Most notably around Ambon and Kendri.  4 of the plane carrying subs are sunk.  Glad to get rid of these.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 548
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/18/2012 3:39:35 AM   
DOCUP


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4th June

KB unknown
MKB IO moving towards Java

Hankow
P38s and P40Es sweep.  They shot down 28 Oscars.  1 P38 crashes on landing and 1 P40E is shot down.

Thats about it folks.  Moving stuff into postion for future and on going objectives.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 549
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/18/2012 4:53:22 PM   
DOCUP


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6th June

KB unknown
MKB IO NW Oz

Saumlaki
Japs attack our AF.  8 Zeros and 6 Bettys go down in flames.  We lose nothing.

Waingapoe
Koniu must have float planes here.

Luganville
Japs attack an ASW force and miss.  Fighter will be here tom, when an TF unloads at Noumea.

CBI
Troop movements and some bombings.  SSDD

< Message edited by DOCUP -- 3/18/2012 4:57:23 PM >

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Post #: 550
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/20/2012 12:37:54 AM   
DOCUP


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5th June

KB unknown
MKB unknown

Ambon
Japs laid some mines.  Our APDs hit 2.  Then his Bettys come in.  2 APDs sunk with 2 more heavly damaged.  I am not happy about this at all.  I had 100 mines in port and he dosen't hit one of them.  He has sent his ships into ports and hexs mined by me and only had 2 ships hit mines.  BULL  Also these mines didn't show up yesterday.  Did he just lay them or have they been there?

Burma
We send 50 2E bombers to hit 3 units in a jungle hex.  They hit nothing.  No AA or fighters to stop them, just overcast.

Kukong
Japs come in and strike and kill hundreds as is usual.  Lv 6 forts in jungle hex.  Yes he is sending in more and might be better trained.

We hit an AK off Japans coast with a live TT.

We also sink an RO boat off Sydney.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 551
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/20/2012 5:57:56 PM   
DOCUP


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Combat replay only today.  Koniu always has alot of stuff to do on Tues

7th June

KB unknown
MKB unknown

PH area
A CA takes to fish in the gut heavy damage reported.

China
We have a a few air battles over the trapped Chinese LCUs.  I saw 6 Oscars go down and a handful of bombers.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 552
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/21/2012 2:11:40 PM   
zuluhour


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Are you attempting a breakout from the pocket? Any decent combat units outside the pocket to assist? On the north-south roads from the Yangtze river I usually trail one or two weeker corps by a hex to prevent/warn me of the sneaky IJA trait of infiltration.

ps. I am not going to read in your opponents AAR (its been a awhile) so after a couple of more Thursday night billiards drinking fests, I will have completely forgotten what he was planning or passed that point all together. To be honest, I don't remember much already, but enough to be quiet for now.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 553
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/21/2012 10:08:05 PM   
DOCUP


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Question guys.

I have a force that might be able to escape from Kukong.  1,600 AV.  Kukong has 6 forts with 7k supply.  I am tieing up multiple IDs, IR, and arty.  I figure if they do get out they will have to march deeper into China away from our lines and Japans mobility will just cut them off with no forts or supply.  Hmm Might of just answered my own question.  Tell me your thoughts.

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Post #: 554
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/21/2012 10:52:20 PM   
zuluhour


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Request current map of Kukong situation.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 555
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/22/2012 3:41:51 PM   
Alfred

 

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I thought my posts #537 and #541 answered the question. Currently the Kukong garrison can only escape via the SW hexside which is away from the Chinese frontlines. Not a very clever approach to take when alternatives exist.

To escape to the NW back towards the Chinese lines, a single unit of the relief column currently situated in the hex to the NW of Kukong has to move first into Kukong to turn the inner door green.

Because there is a Japanese force in the hex NE of Kukong, DOCUP must retain most of his relieve column stationary in the NW hex otherwise the adjacent Japanese force could move due west and then enter through both the outer and inner doors into Kukong thereby totally negating the NW escape route.

Alfred

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Post #: 556
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/22/2012 9:14:56 PM   
DOCUP


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Alfred, you did answer my orginal question of how they can escape.  I was wondering if it would be better to keep them in Kukong behind the 6 forts, instead of moving  them out via the SW hex.  I am sorry for the confusion.  I think it would better as you stated its not a smart move.  I can't keep any LCUs in any other hexs for a long period of time.  Kukong has 4 IDs with arty.  I think there is also another 3 or so IDs in the surrounding hexs.  Every time I have moved in an LCU to free this garrison they get knocked out of the hex by a larger Jap unit.
Thanks as always Alfred

8th June

KB unknown  (Turk?)
MKB unknown

Ambon
Port sinks the 3 wounded APDs.

Terapo
I tried to sneak in a single AKL with supplies it didn't make it.  Koniu also gets another one  moving to Horn Island.

Pago Pago
Koniu moves his subs into the shallow water misses all shots but no response by my ASW.

China
Bombings and sweeps the usual.

Shwebo
We sweep empty ski's and kill almost 200 troops on the ground with bombers.  I will attack again tomorrow.

Lots of sub and ASW activity.  We sink an AKL an Koniu sinks an AKE (off Hawaii in blue water).

Nor Pac
More fighters and DBs have been sent up here. 

Op Dumbo
Ships, troops, supplies etc are marshalling now.  It won't be long.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 557
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/22/2012 9:55:28 PM   
zuluhour


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Joe, I believe that was addressed for the TWITs. I have to take a look again. I thought if you moved a unit from the NW into Kukong with another trailing behind you could open the door to the NW and make escape feasable.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 558
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/22/2012 9:56:35 PM   
DOCUP


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It looks like Koniu has moved his bombers from Kendri to Makassar.  This takes away my chance of knocking some bombers off on the runways.  I still get a shot at the fighters.  Even if he moves the fighters to Makassar.  He will have to use drop tanks and the fatigue will go up morale will go down and so will his planes.  I have 2 mine sweeping ships moving to Ambon to clear out those mines. 

I think Koniu is prepareing to make a move on Terapo.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 559
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/23/2012 4:47:05 PM   
Alfred

 

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Ok guys, I'm starting to become confused as to what are the problems both DOCUP and the TWITS of zuluhour see. I reporduce the last screen shot of the situation in the vicinity of Kukong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP





1. Kukong has about 1600 Chinese AV present.

2. There are Japanese land forces located in the Kukong hex itself, and the hexes immediately to the NE and SE of Kukong. The size of those Japanese forces in all 3 hexes is not specified.

3. The Kukong hex has only 2 inner doors coloured green. One hexside coloured green is the SW hexside, the other is the NE.

4. If forced to retreat, the Kukong Chinese garrison has only one escape route viz., through the inner door of the SW hexside. The garrison will not retreat through the inner NE hexside because there is a Japanese force in the NE hex.

5. There is a Chinese relief force in the hex NW of Kukong.

6. Barring any Japanese moves, and the reproduced screen shot shows there are no Japanese moves in motion at the present, if a single Chinese unit moves through the outer door into Kukong, the Kukong garrison will acquire a more direct retreat path back to the main Chinese MLR.

Now it seems to me that DOCUP has raised a new question viz., whether the Kukong garrison should stay in situ or move out. My main confusion arises from his statement that when he moves a Chinese unit into a besieged position, it immediately gets kicked out.

This is how I would approach the situation.

(a) Currently the Kukong base will only receive supplies through the SW hexside. This is a long and inefficient route for supplies to get in, assuming there are any surplus supplies which can be automatically transported.

(b) By moving a single LCU from the relief column through the outer door, the supply path is considerably shortened. When that is accomplished, the Kukong base will receive any overland supplies automatically through the NW hexside. This also opens up the NW hexside for retreat if it becomes necessary for the Kukong garrison.

(c) The single LCU moved through the outer door will not be kicked out by a Japanese attack at Kukong. Upon arrival at Kukong, the unit immediately assumes the base fortification level. It will only be forced to retreat if all the other units present at Kukong are also simultaneously forced to retreat and the base itself is captured by Japan.

(d) In a perfect world, all of the relief column, excepting the one unit sent to Kukong via the outer door, would march due east to pin the Japanese forces in the Kukong NE hex from moving due west. It is not immediately obvious to me that once the relief column arrived in the eastern hex, the Japanese forces currently in that hex would be sufficiently strong to immediately eject the newly arrived Chinese.

Doing all this gives you the option to remain in Kukong. Whether you should remain depends largely on the undisclosed strength of the besieging Japanese force. However if you do not open a better supply route into Kukong (which can double up as a retreat path too), then the question of a voluntary withdrawal from Kukong before you are forcefully ejected becomes a valid question.

Alfred

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 560
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/23/2012 9:28:15 PM   
DOCUP


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Alfred, yes I have confused you.

The LCU that was north of Kukong didn't make it into Kukong.  It was kicked out of the hex north of Kukong.  When a Jap LCU came into it.  Now I still have the SW hex to retreat to, but It has 2 Jap units in it.  I am thinking that it is better to stay in Kukong with the 7k of supply and 6 forts.  I am tieing up around 6 IDs and a bunch of other units in this area.

9th June

KB unknown
MKB unknown

Timor AO
Koniu sweeps Samulaki and Lautem.  He shots down 26 P40Es and Kitty Ia's.  We down 19 Zeros.  Lautem has Jap mines in the hex now.  But I have a sweeper picking those up as we speak.  I think Koniu is getting ready to reinforce Ambon.  He hasn't attacked or bombarded Ambon for a few days.  I bet hes out of of supplies.

Kendri
180 fighters with 130 bombers and 128 aux.  I am thinking of unleasing my 4Es now.  What do you guys think.  Its a lv 4 AF so he has to be overstacked.

Tahiti
Jap sub makes it into the harbor and sinks 2 empty xAKs.  It didn't hit one mine.  ASW didn't do anything either.

Shwebo
We attack the 16th recon unit again.  Its now retreating from the this hex.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 561
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/24/2012 4:36:24 AM   
zuluhour


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Alfred, I know you must have doubts, but I believe it has sunk in. Danke!

Joe, Alfred, Any good threads on paradrops? I've never done it and I may have a chance to cut off some IJA formations and force the the IJA 15th Army to draw more troops into Burma or at least move some of the 65ooo-+ off the coast. I'm all ears. Joe your tempo with this game is high and I suspect the Emperor did not expect so many counters to his objectives. It is a very interesting conflict; which is why I chose to peek at the other side. This might sound a little OT, but I think your style of play, would unbalance Nemo, so long as you maintained solid mechanics with brash daring do. 2 cents from the peanut gallery. OH YEAH, Ive been taking deliveries of this beauty on Yorktown.




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Post #: 562
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/24/2012 8:53:40 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

... Joe, Alfred, Any good threads on paradrops? I've never done it and I may have a chance to cut off some IJA formations and force the the IJA 15th Army to draw more troops into Burma or at least move some of the 65ooo-+ off the coast. I'm all ears...


This is a subject which regularly comes up but IMHO there is no really good comprehensive thread on the subject. Nothing like LoBaron's air coordination sticky or like one of my 101 threads. And before you even ask, no I don't envisage having any time soon to prepare a comprehensive 101 guide on this topic. I currently lack the time to properly revise my existing 101 guides and the AE Grandmaster thread and they have a higher priority.

When the subject is raised, more often than not it quickly falls into a "is it gamey" discourse.

The actual mechanics of dropping paras is really not that difficult. Just be certain that:

1. The unit in question is really a parachute unit. Don't just rely on its name. Check the unit symbol and description, and

2. You have read s.7.2.4 of the manual

That being said I think you might the following thread to be of more use than reading another is it gamey focussed thread on paradrops.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2596733&mpage=1&key=paradrop�

If you really want more, there is a 3 year old thread before the release of AE which might be of benefit. It however quickly dropped within its 3 pages into a discussion of real world paradrop doctrine. Interesting but of limited value regarding the game itself other than canvassing what is gamey or not.

Also closely related is the question of airplane capacity. You can do a search on several of my posts regarding that issue.

If more info is required, I suggest providing additional data in the respective AAR.

Alfred

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Post #: 563
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/24/2012 9:17:22 AM   
Alfred

 

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DOCUP,

If now understand you correctly now, you are now surrounded on all sides and if defeated in battle at Kukong, resulting in losing the base, the entire Kukong garrison will be forced to surrender. Under those circumstances you may as well hunker down in Kukong. Afterall, if you are surrounded on all sides, are out of ammunition and both your left and right flanks have disintegrated, you are in perfect condition to attack.

1. The amount of supply in Kukong will suffice for 1-2 months. Add in the organic supply carried by the defenders themselves gives you roughly another month.

2. Subject to any combat and air strikes which can speed up the consumption alarmingly, it might be some 4 months before your Kukong garrison is completely out of supply.

3. Once totally out of supply, your 1600 AV garrison is adjusted down to 400 AV. Add in level 6 forts (which may have been dropped during the siege, perhaps to zero) the next adjustment brings up the AV to 900 AV. Then there is the further upward adjustment provided by terrain.

I would expect 6 category one Japanese divisions to be able to defeat your Kukong garrison. However that is a lot of quality Japanese troops which are not available for use elsewhere and it affords you a good opportunity in the meantime to do something useful with the Chinese army both locally by sending a relief column and at the same time elsewhere. However just sitting in Kukong and remaining passive elsewhere would not be a good idea.

The time bought at Kukong must be utilised elsewhere. Perhaps a drive on Pakhoi using the units to the southwest of Nanning. A port would allow you to send in supply via subs. It can also provide you with some naval search to greatly aid your sub hunting program.

Alfred

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Post #: 564
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/24/2012 1:00:03 PM   
DOCUP


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Alfred, I am trying a diversion at Wuchow.  I am now ordering recon flights over Pakhoi.  A large force is begining to move towards Kukong.  You are a smart one.

Zulu, Thanks for the comment about unhinging the emperors objectives.  I hope that is right.  Unbalanceing Nemo, don't know.  But I do agree with him you must do some unconventional things to keep your opponent honest.  I miss his AARs.  "Those who dare, win"  I actually think the tempo is low.  I think I am playing a little on the safe side.  Once I get use to the game mechanics, units and such I will probably be more aggressive.  I know in the begining that I was throwing Koniu off his plans.  Now not so sure that.  But thinking about it, it is about time for a crazy Ivan.

So let the steal rain fall over Kendri.  82 4Es are ordered to fly tomorrow. 

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 565
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/24/2012 1:48:21 PM   
zuluhour


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quote:

So let the steal rain fall over Kendri.


"let them pray"

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 566
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/25/2012 6:15:30 AM   
DOCUP


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10th June

KB unknown
MKB unknown

Pago Pago
An I boat takes 3 hits. Still no mine hits.

China
More bombings.

Kendri
Steel rain. 40 some Zeros are destroyed 6 in the air and the rest on the ground. 15 Bettys and 11 Nells are destroyed on the ground. We lose 13 B17Es and 3 LB 30s. 31 hits on the AF are seen. Intel says 112 fighters are left with 80 bombers and 40 aux. We will attack tomorrow. This time we will bomb from higher Alt. Koniu had his fighter 68 of them stacked from 4k to 17k. I am surprised he had some CAP up.

I am away from my computer, so some of my numbers may be off.

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Post #: 567
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/25/2012 6:49:09 AM   
Alfred

 

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Having mutiple minefields is better than having a larger single minefield. There is no difference in the rate of mine decay between having a single and multiple minefields at the same location.

If you have say, 3 subs loaded with 60 mines in aggregate, you are better off sending 3 separate sub minelaying TF to the same destination than sending a single sub minelaying TF which contains all three subs. Although the three minefields are sized only 20 mines each, enemy ships will have to run the minefield gauntlet algorithm three times.

Alfred

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 568
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/25/2012 7:36:00 AM   
DOCUP


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Nice to know that Alfred. Wish I would of known that a turn ago. Oh well live and learn.

I am nervous for the next few turns. I have this bad feeling that my amphib TF is going to get slaughtered at Ambon. I can see the ships getting bombed, when I sleep. Is that a bad thing. I am bringing in as many fighters as I can. I need supplies at Ambon bad.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 569
RE: Operation Dumbo - 3/25/2012 3:01:04 PM   
zuluhour


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]
quote:

enemy ships will have to run the minefield gauntlet algorithm three times.


Stricky note!!

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 570
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