AI NEVER (or very rare) begins crash research

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AI NEVER (or very rare) begins crash research - 3/29/2012 4:36:31 PM

WiZz

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
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In my last games I decided to look how AI handle empire on full automate. The beginning results were not very good. Autocolonize was very sloooow. I decided to help him - found a few colonies, destroyed main enemies and turned on full automate again. For now my empire was stronger then neighbors, have a lot of cash and show no signs of falling. Interesting things began, when I looked why research progress went so slow. It seems that my AI didn't want to begin crash research or simple didn't know about this feature. Cash was present (~1.500.000-2.000.000 credits) and my empire had 10-12 research stations with talent scientists.

And I have question for developers: are you planning to fix this limitations in game? AI is so weak, even with a lot of money.

< Message edited by WiZz -- 3/29/2012 8:16:39 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: AI NEVER (or very rare) begins crash research - 3/29/2012 7:01:30 PM

ASHBERY76

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From: England
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RE: AI NEVER (or very rare) begins crash research - 3/29/2012 7:19:46 PM

WiZz

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
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Any other replies except this picture?

< Message edited by WiZz -- 3/29/2012 7:20:35 PM >

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 3

RE: AI NEVER (or very rare) begins crash research - 3/29/2012 7:59:46 PM

Modest

Posts: 172
Joined: 11/26/2011
From: Warsaw, Poland
Status: offline

It is true that AI is not the best and it could do things a lot better. Also I do agree that crashing research is putting AI in even worse situations (not only economically and military but also technologically). That is why I do not use crash research myself (I do know that is not solution, it is only my way to live with AI weekness). But don't You think that Your message is not nice one? I know that You may feel frustrated, but in my opinion Your message was very unplesant. To be more specific, this big, fat, ending question sounds (reads?) extremly not nice... It could be asked more official or a lot more plesant.

And if by this message I offended You by any way - I am sorry, I did not mean to do this. As a matter of fact I hate to hurt anybody's feelings.

(in reply to WiZz)

Post #: 4

RE: AI NEVER (or very rare) begins crash research - 3/29/2012 8:21:57 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
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His attitude in recent weeks has become trolling bad.People forget this game is only a 1 man show and Elliot has done a great job with this game.

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RE: AI NEVER (or very rare) begins crash research - 3/29/2012 8:22:59 PM

WiZz

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
Status: offline

Sorry by that. I was very impressed, when I found on one forum comment from user, who reveal game source code.

quote:

I revealed source code of game and found many-many interesting things. For example, there are some limitations, that let AI to begin crash research with probability ONLY 25% even if AI has enough money. And AI has some limitations with price of crash research. AI begins crash if crash research costs less or equally half of value present AI cash. For example, AI has 1000000 credits, research costs 400000, so there is POSSIBILITY OF 25%, that AI begins crash.
And AI also check price of research only after choosing tech. So, we can get such situation. AI has 3 variants of crash techs. It has enough cash for first and second research, but not for third. AI chooses third tech, check price - no enough money, end - crash program is canceled, although it has enough money for first or second tech.

Just wondering, is it a truth?

ASHBERY76

Please, don't confuse "trolling" and will to help to make game better.

< Message edited by WiZz -- 3/29/2012 8:29:05 PM >

(in reply to Modest)

Post #: 6

RE: AI NEVER (or very rare) begins crash research - 3/29/2012 8:41:39 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

Everybody can see the edit.

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RE: AI NEVER (or very rare) begins crash research - 3/29/2012 9:11:58 PM

Modest

Posts: 172
Joined: 11/26/2011
From: Warsaw, Poland
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Well, I think that everybody has his worse days from time to time. I am sure that everybody can understand it. Just please - became again the same, old WiZz which "invented" Silvermist...

Well, I do not know is it true, or not - my computer skills aren't so good to check that. But I bet that it is true. Maybe not all of it, maybe not exacly as it is written, but I bet it is more true than not. But this is only my thinking, not the facts. It would be best if creator of DW would comfirm that or not comfirm... But it is not a corthouse, making such limitations is not a crime, and we do not have right to demand such answers. We may just ask, and hope that it will be answered. And if it will be confirmed we can simply ask for removing limitations for AI (or making them more liberal), and encourage other users of this forum to join this idea. Also I think that it is very good that You decidet to show us what You found - it is good to know about it. At least I am glad to know that such limitations may exists.

And by the way, I did not know that DW was done by only one person... I was thinking all the time that it was done by 3 or 4 persons... And I agree - it is great work and everytime when I see some Polish article about "Top 10 Independent Games" I alweys ask in a comments why DW is not there, and show a link to proper internet site where people may read about it and know it. Now I actually think it is even better since I learned it was made by Eliot alone... It is important to rememmber about that.

And one more think to remember for everybody - including myself (and I have tendency to forget about it sometimes). DW is great, it have also it's weekness, can give a lot of fun, and some frustrations sometimes... But it is ONLY a game... Let's not forget about it. It is not worth fighting and... Ah! Bla, bla, bla... I am sure that everybody will understand what I ment. I just hope that also everybody will agree.

Oh... And now it looks a lot better :) Good, clear and to the point without any bad emontions :)

ASHBERY76, could You now do something about that picture which You put as Your first answer? I know that I do not have any right to tell You what to do... Just since WiZz changed form of his first question to polite one I think it would be fair to change picture or delete it, or something... But of course it is only my proposition. I do not want to impose anything or demand... It is only a polite suggestion and nothing more... I am sorry if it sounded like anything else.

< Message edited by Modest -- 3/29/2012 9:22:39 PM >

(in reply to WiZz)

Post #: 8

RE: AI NEVER (or very rare) begins crash research - 3/29/2012 9:57:01 PM

WiZz

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
Status: offline

Try to understand my position. Almost of 4x space strategies had a weak AI and I don't want such destiny to DW.
AI in original game and ROTS was challenging and smart (in most cases). And everyone (especially gamers of original game and ROTS) can see, that game became easier. I created a few topics about this. I wrote, that it seems that AI couldn't handle with all new features correctly and effective.
I understand, that game must be more friendly for newbies, but not in such way, I think. If you are new player, have fun on "easy" difficulty, use automate at all.
If it's too difficult to remake AI, just transfer this options and values (ai crash research, money etc) to modable files, that everyone can mode the game on his own wish.

< Message edited by WiZz -- 3/29/2012 9:58:21 PM >

(in reply to Modest)

Post #: 9

RE: AI NEVER (or very rare) begins crash research - 3/29/2012 10:46:40 PM

Modest

Posts: 172
Joined: 11/26/2011
From: Warsaw, Poland
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I think that I am not qualified for such discusion what may be modded and what not. Also I do not know how much trouble is to make good AI. The only reason of my reply here was form of the discusion, not it's meritorical side. But... One thing... AI actually got better in Legends than it was in ROTS or just in DW. It's attacks are far more coordinated, it's fleets are most of time fueled (in ROTS that was te biggest problem of AI at war - powerfull fleets without fuel). I would bet that AI problems are mostly because of new features such as border systems (which is great in my opinon and works very good) or lack of recruited inteligence agents and so... So I assume that taking old AI to this new features would not work... Also I do believe that with time Eliot will take care about AI also. Right now there is a possibility to make AI players build human designed ships, right? So the game is still evolving and I suppose that it goes in really good way. Also we must remember that Eliot is but one person - His time and abilities are not inffinitive. But it is good that You are pointing problems - this helps a lot as long as it will be written in a way that peoples will want to read it and discuss. I am sure that sooner or later it will bring attention. I only reacted on form, not anything else.

And as for AI in other 4x games... I will tell even more - AI is the problem of most of games, not only 4x games. I do not remember when I saw a game with really good AI for the last time... Very big problem is that we actually learn to fast for AI - at least for now.

(in reply to WiZz)

Post #: 10

RE: AI NEVER (or very rare) begins crash research - 3/30/2012 10:36:02 AM

WiZz

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
Status: offline

I'm slightly disagree with you. When I told about weak AI, I meant enemy AI, not AI, that assists player. Enemies in DW and ROTS were more dangerous, than in Legend.

(in reply to Modest)

Post #: 11