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Long campaign - 1/18/2001 9:10:00 AM

McGib

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From: Ontario Canada
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I've been playing SP ever since SP1 came out and have loved just about everything about the game but especially the long campaign feature. Something about taking your boys through the war and seeing your units upgrade etc etc was thrilling. I could hardly wait for the next battle when the next tank would become available. And with SPWAW, the things the Matrix guys have done with the game has made a great game even better. With one exception, the long campaign. For me this has been the biggest let down. I dont know exactly whats wrong, wether its unit prices or coding in the game, but the long campaigns are basicly unplayable. I have a German long campaign going now that I have tried to keep small. I have a FJ company (upgraded from a rifle co.), 2 sections of PZ IVd's, 1 section of Pz 35t's, 3 150mm howitzers, 2 37mm AA guns and two medium trucks. Against this in a delay mission in June 1940 the AI was going to send 45 S-35's!!!!!!! Plus at least a company of infantry, and some light arty. I'm sorry but 45 medium tanks that have over twice the armour of my tanks, I wont be able to scratch them unless I'm close enough to hand them my AP shells. Sure my infantry will get some, but each squad will probably only get one assault before its pounded by 12 - 15 47mm guns. I dont mean to sound down on the game, I enjoy playing WB's campaigns and the scenarios but unless something at sometime can be done about the long campaign to make it more historical not to mention playable a large part of the fun in this game is just not there for me. ------------------ McGib Ready Aye Ready

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- 1/18/2001 9:29:00 AM

orc4hire

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I think the AI point totals for campaign scenarios has gotten a bit wonky with 4.x... in 2.x I ran a German long campaign and ran into a force like what you're facing... but I had a full company of panzergrenadiers, a company of Pz IIIEs, and odds and ends like a platoon of Pz IVCs. I just recently tried playing a 5 battle campaign starting in 1939, starting with a small force... a platoon of infantry, a platoon of Pz Ibs, a section of armored cars, a motorcycle squad, machine gun section, a couple of 37mm AT guns, and a couple of mortars. I drew a Defend mission, but with only a couple hundred points for support... I took a platoon of 75mms for ofboard, a couple more 37mms, and 3 more rifle squads. And I was swamped by about a company of tanks and a battalion of infantry, with massive air and artillery support. It wasn't even a challenge, just tedious being buried under an unending tide of hostiles.

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- 1/18/2001 9:41:00 AM

Drake

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Will you guys should feal lucky, I normally set up the AI to get twice that and I still get all BVs, Its just a matter of useing the right tactics. I had real fun in france when I got 100 tank kills useing just 8 tanks. The only problem I had was that I was running out of ammo most of the time. What I would seggest is you chick a number of setting before you start the compaign that will cut down on the AIs numbers. The first is true troop cost, If your playing the Germans turn this off becouse the AI with its low experince Polish and Frinch units can buy more becouse of it. If your the alllies live it on if its in the early war. Make sure AI advantage is of or the AI will get extra units. You could also go into the editor and take away some of the AIs units, Tank has info on his site on how to do this.

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- 1/18/2001 9:53:00 AM

AmmoSgt

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"Boys, it is called a Target Rich Enviroment..Every Troopers Dream.." Gen. Geo. A Custer

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- 1/18/2001 11:13:00 AM

McGib

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Well Drake your idea of turning off the true troop cost worked to some extent ... I faced half as many S-35's as before. 23 S-35's is still quite a force but its better than facing 45 of them. I think what I might try is figuring out what point total my core force adds up to and then give the AI a point total similar to that. ------------------ McGib Ready Aye Ready

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- 1/18/2001 11:14:00 AM

McGib

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Your right Sarge ..... but look what happend to him eh? ------------------ McGib Ready Aye Ready

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Post #: 6

- 1/18/2001 4:56:00 PM

t-rex

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Hey you guys! Is it really realistic to meet over 100 french tanks in a single battle, come on!! These guys weren�t bathing in them historically! No, there must be some proportions!! ------------------ Sgt. A.Lassi 6th Company, 2nd Arctic Mortar Platoon I19/P5 Reg. Sweden

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Post #: 7

- 1/18/2001 9:39:00 PM

Warhorse

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Said it before, but here it goes, hack it!! Buy the AI's units,(more historical), redo map, add huge ones, change opponents, whatever. If you know a friend that has a half hour or less, send the edited scenario to him, let him deploy the forces you bought, maybe have them add a surprise or two, then name back to a save and let 'er rip!! ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

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Meine Ehre hei�t Treue
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- 1/18/2001 10:04:00 PM

Charles22

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Everyone seems to have a problem with the S-35s, and though they are the toughest opponent early on for the Gerrys, I will give you some ideas how I do it, and decisively, every time. The MOST important thing to realise about the French is that the gunners are quite inaccurate in S-35s, and also that they give up as a total froce, quite easily. The matter of inaccuracy in the S-35s, can be quite important, because the German armor is quite a bit more accurate. In other words, until they're within range of penetrating their hulls, concentrate on just a few of them, so that you start winning the suppression war, since at this point you cannot win the penetration war, thereby reducing their numerical advantage (should you not be able to follow the advice on the next paragraph in certain situations). In a meeting engagement, the best thing I figure, is to get some recon unit on a hill that has objectives on it and place the tank holding force behind the slope (of course getting any infantry to the hill and beyond it is a good help). When the recon unit sees the a great many S-35s have closed within 10-15 hexes of the hill, unleash the holding force tanks onto the hill, and start opening up on those hulls below. Part of the key here, is to get tanks that will open those hulls (PZIIIEs need not apply) purchased. I do advise to get maybe a section or two of PZIIIEs for the overall battle, not because they can penetrate anything, but because they come with so many shots that they are your main power of suppression, and also they can work well as the only units you might want to use so as to upset accuracy of enemy units during opfire. I don't believe there are any regular guns that (meaning non-88mm) can open the S-35 tops, as I don't know if I've ever seen them go down by this method, as in most battles against superior armor I can expect to see a few losses from that, but I may be imagining things. In any event you can't expect to destroy S-35s via top hits due to their not only being perhaps invulnerable there, but more importantly that they come in such hordes. One key element of being able to survive very well against the S-35s in a meeting engagement, is to take those objectives as quickly as possible, with something, anything, that can sneak back there and get the French held ones. This is important, because the French will fight as doggedly as anyone, since they can't surrender if they have any objecitves. Knock out half their tanks, while having all the objectives and they'll surrender. They may even surrender in those conditions, even if you've just destroyed 1/3 of their tanks. I don't think I need get into how helpful mines can be when the French are on the offensive, either. To me, the toughest the French are, is in a meeting engagement (mines are useless for one thing), because I do not have all the objectives to get a quick surrender, while if I'm on an attack mission, myself, puts me at superior amounts of armor, to nullify the problem of the hordes.

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- 1/18/2001 10:04:00 PM

Larry Holt

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The overwhelming number of enemy tanks in the first few long campaign battles, against poland and France has been noted before. This does not happen once you advance to fighing the Soviets. There the AIP buys a lot of weak T-60s, etc. even when T-34s and KV-1s are available. As the British, the AIP also does not load up on an overwhelming number of the best tanks either, although I've not played against the British AIP much so there could be glitches there also. I condsider it kind of like Arras. In any case, I've never lost in this situation. While the AIP has a lot of tanks, they just drive straight ahead. You don't have to kill them all at once so don't. Use terrain or smoke to mask some of them then eat the elephant bite by bite. Attack a few tanks with lots of yours, kill them, then move on to kill some more, a few at a time. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.

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- 1/18/2001 10:36:00 PM

orc4hire

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Larry, Unfortunately the time I got swamped by the entire Polish tank corp, I didn't have any gun armed tanks... I was trying an experiment to see how I could do with just AT guns.... and it might have actually worked out if one of them hadn't broken down on turn 2....

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Post #: 11

- 1/19/2001 1:41:00 AM

RockinHarry

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Hi there Unfortunately the only tactic of the AI opponent in SPWAW and others is "russian". ( = overwhelming numbers ) I guess it�s a serious problem to program a really tough AI opponent, but I think the "artificial incompetence" should be heavily worked over in future releases of SPWAW. It�s hard at times for me to get a human opponent for SPWAW here in my area and I even don�t have private internet access ( only via friend ), so I do more depend on a good computer opponent for lot of fun in SPWAW. So a better AI for SPWAW is on top of my wishlist for future releases. This would improve all types of games, not just the long campaigns. --------------------------- from the "Tiger" motherland RockinHarry

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- 1/19/2001 4:48:00 AM

ruxius

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Hi boys ..just to share my experience : I started the long campaign with the Germans..at the beginning I was assaulted by millions of Polish troops...after the first moments of panic I tried to survive...it had been hard and I lost a lot of units..but I kept that hopeless situation in my mind for a long time...I had bought poor units in order to upgrade them later and that was an error ! at the end I managed for a draw retreating and firing retreating trying to keep the distance again and using all ammo I had... I understand that was not an hystorical h a battle...everyone expects Poland on a defensive pattern..but I liked it so much that experienced that now that I am in 1943 and I am facing the soviets I play with GE 800 against SO 8400 battle points..and 23 air sections for the soviets !! AI is not very clever and this will be a non sense against a human opponent... In the last battle I stayed at about 10 minutes watching Sturmoviks bombing my units and then after that I saw hundreds of Js-II Kv-1 T-34 coming in front of me..WOW ! I discovered this possibility in long campaign by going in the preferences menu and changing the soviet battle points..if you keep the slot on xxx you will see only few soviet troops...(default is setted) but if you modify it during a battle you'll see consequences on the next battle.. I repeat that this is not hystorical but I don't want to point anything to anyone I enjoyed it and here I am just sharing my experience.. Bye !

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- 1/19/2001 4:50:00 AM

ruxius

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Italian Soldier,German Discipline!

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Post #: 14

- 1/19/2001 4:56:00 AM

ruxius

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ops..I am sorry for 'sharing twicly' this experience...(too many opened windows on my PC..)

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Post #: 15

- 1/19/2001 6:00:00 AM

crazyivan

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the best work around for the excesive AI units in a long camp is to adjust the core units it is alowed to a historical and realisitc leaveal also the purchase pionts the manual says that if you choses say 30 core units the ai is free to have the rest untill the game core cap is reached thats a lot of units man. for my self i find setting a core cap limit that allows for still genrouse ai purchase makes for a good camp you can adjust it according to your taste through out the camp.

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Post #: 16

- 1/19/2001 7:38:00 AM

Larry Wagner

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From: Orange Park,Florida,USA
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Guys, After trying my hand at the Long Campaign I have found this. The default points are far to few for my taste. The Game maxes out at 200 core units. I changed the points to 6800 for both German and AI and have give the AI an advantage. The force I bought was as follows: The 13th PzG Battalion, The Black Cats A). Three Motorized PzG companies with 37mm ATG and 75mm IG and Opel trucks. I plan on ugrading the companies to H/T's, ATG to 88mm ATG, the 75mm IG to mobile SiG 150 in 1940, one truck section to TD's and one truck sec to mobile 37mm AA. B). one med. PZ Co. with PzIIIE's and PZII's C). three plts of PZIVc's to support PzG. D). three FO,three snipers, two sections of H/Ts. Each assigned to a company comander. Extra H/T for the AO unit. Later to be converted to track FO. E). three PLTs of 81mm mortors as Battalion artillery tobe upgraged to H/T 81mm motor H/T. F).three PZI sections to be upgrade to StuG's and assign one section per company G).three ATR sections and asigned one per PzG Platoon. Later to be upgraded to Engineer Squads H). two infantry 4 man scout sections, later converted to 50mm mortor sections and assigned two each to each company. As to this force make up of my re-inforced PzG Battalion, I like to operate on a battalion scale. This I feel is the best combined arms force to handle any situation. It allows for a fair strike element of one re-inforced PzG Company for each objective on a broad front. The med PZ Company to exploit the sistuation as the fighting developes. My first action against the Poland was a Crushing Victory in three turns using Air support in a delay senario. I found this tobe a telling asset. The Stukas and 110's seem tobe the most effective against armour and infantry. As for recon units, in the future I well purchase as nessary a recon company. The same with off board artillery, paratroops and special units as the senario map and mission dictates. I plan on using the CC option with the next mission and see if I can master that portion of the game for the rest of the campaign. Larry PS anyone know the German equivalent for Larry or Lawrence? Ludwig?

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- 1/22/2001 11:43:00 PM

Charles22

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Larry Wagner: Are you playing with a larger map somehow? I can't possibly see playing with the size of a force with the tiny map width the campaigns allow. In core, I generally carry the equivalent of 5 or 6 platoons of armor, about the same amount of infantry types, a platoon of ATGs, 3 sections of AA (SP and not SP both) and a small hodge-podge other than that (like a platoon of infantry recon, section of MMGs, etc.).

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- 1/23/2001 8:07:00 AM

Larry Wagner

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Larry Wagner: Are you playing with a larger map somehow? Charles22, Yes I am or just what the game offers per senario. I believe I have Battle Frontage on in preferences. I see I am not the only one who likes a full battalion. ------------------ Larry Wagner USMC, SGT. 1972-1985

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- 1/23/2001 9:12:00 AM

crazyivan

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i play alot of long camp my force started out in 1940 late. 2-plts=pzlll 1-plt=stugs 1-plt=spflak 1-plt=sig33s 1-plt=jpz1s 1-coy=ssmech 4-plts=spec forces 4-snipers 4-88s with transport 2-ammo trucks most of my support points are spent on h-arty

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Post #: 20

- 1/24/2001 1:22:00 AM

Charles22

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Larry Wagner: Yes I like a full battalion, but not on a small map. Actually, the point I was trying to make is that I considered my force smaller than yours. I'm using the default German '39 core points, which I'm thinking is either 3200 or 3400. I can deal with playing with less infantry in core, it's just that I cannot bear playing with less than 25 tanks there. I generally am most comfortable with 30-35 (at least with the small campaign maps). I do wish somebody would fix the campaigns not taking advantage of the larger map sizes. Some of the core default core points are considerably too high for the map IMO (though the '39 German one is ideal - some of them later in the war, are too high not only because of a higher default value, but also because some nation's forces are very cheap). This makes it difficult to play a WWII campaign, since you cannot reduce the default core points as far as I know. I suspect most campaigners prefer to play with the stated defaults, so that there's some sort of hope of comparing one's effectiveness to someone else's.

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- 1/24/2001 6:59:00 AM

BA Evans

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Reduce your core points in the preferences screen. Look for "Battle Points". BA Evans

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Post #: 22

- 1/24/2001 7:54:00 AM

Charles22

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BA Evans: That's the way it used to work. Now, the bare minimum is the 'XXX'. Seems like someone said that if I wanted a 3000 pt. core, I had to put the value 3000 in, since that would make it the value entered, unlike as it was before where the positive or negative value affected the default value (so that 3000 pts. in the field would ADD to the default instead).

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Post #: 23

- 1/24/2001 8:54:00 AM

Larry Wagner

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Charles22, For what I consider an ideal force is a balance of all arms so that all threats are covered and any mission can be carried out. I find that SPWAW is like playin the game Rock, Paper, Scissors. The three PZG motorized companies are the core of my three strike forces. I asign to each company; 1 FO, 1 Sniper, 1 scout vehical asigned to company HQ, three ATR units later to be converted to engineers assigned to each platoon, 3 PZI's assigned one per platoon (to be converted to stug/TD in 1940) and 1 platoon of PZIV cs tanks. The trucks to be coverted to HTs asap. Later in 1940 the 37mm ATG is coverted to 88mm ATG and the 75mm IG coverted to SIG 150, the 2 truck sections to JPZ/TD and spflak. Transport for 88 provided with support points. The med Tank Company is the Battalion reserve. Tank upgrades will be to tiger/panther. I always match the core points of the AI to match my own. ------------------ Larry Wagner USMC, SGT. 1972-1985

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- 1/24/2001 11:36:00 PM

BA Evans

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quote:

Originally posted by Charles22: BA Evans: That's the way it used to work. Now, the bare minimum is the 'XXX'. Seems like someone said that if I wanted a 3000 pt. core, I had to put the value 3000 in, since that would make it the value entered, unlike as it was before where the positive or negative value affected the default value (so that 3000 pts. in the field would ADD to the default instead).

It seems like someone said? Why don't you just go in and test it yourself? Here is the test I did. It took me about 1 minute using v4.5. Started a WWII Campaign with 'XXX' for battle points in the preferences screen. The U.S. force got 4418 points to spend Started a WWII Campaign with 1600 for battle points in the preferences screen. The U.S. force got 1518 points to spend. Note: U.S. A0 = 82 points The battle points seems to be working just fine. Imput the amount you want to play with and that is the amount you get. Couldn't be simpler. BA Evans

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- 1/25/2001 12:42:00 AM

rfox

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I have to admit that I haven't fooled around much with OOB assignments for the campaign game. I've assigned a core force with units that I'm almost certain are not historical. I plan on a remedy for that when I start a new campaign. However, I'm still now sure how the force assignment works. I understand that you can choose a 'core' force that stays with you and can be upgraded as the campaign progresses. The AFV crews and troops that live through the campaign gain experience, etc...correct? The support forces, though, represent units that are temporarily attached to your core force? For just one battle? I assume that the points assigned for the support units have nothing to do with the force pool of points assigned for your core force. Am I correct here? Also, I noticed that between missions, the force pool points for my core force are increased. What controls this increase or decrease? Do you get more points if you perform well on the previous mission? Finally, the computer chooses units from a force pool which is comperable to yours, correct? With 'Actual Unit Cost' on, I'm assuming that the AI will get, for example, many, many 7-tp. Polish tanks to my relatively few Pz. IIIs and Pz. IIs. It's interesting because I think the Poles only had around 170 7-tp.s at the beginning of the '39 Polish campaign, and I must have already knocked out half that many. Forgive me if this is all in the manual. Thanks. ------------------ ------------- Rob

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Post #: 26

- 1/25/2001 12:52:00 AM

Larry Holt

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Rfox, Good questions. P49 of the v4.1 manual says to see the Campaign sections below but it isn't there. (MATRIX take note of this). You have the correct understanding of how things work for the core and support units, experience points, etc. The troops stay the same if you upgrade so if you upgrade an infantry unit to a tank, the crew will still have its infantry-type statistics for armor command, etc. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.

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Post #: 27

- 1/25/2001 12:57:00 AM

Charles22

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BA Evans: Understood. About half of the time I will conduct such testing, but I was at work when I posted, and also I wanted to make absolutely certain that there's no such thing as reducing the default, because saying it can be reduced may lead to confusion, when it in fact reduction does not occur off the XXX setting, though it used to. I haven't been playing any for the last couple of weeks, considering that it would be fruitless with my wanting to play a new campaign with the V4.6 asterisk taken out. There's little or no point in playing a campaign that you know you'll terminate when the new version comes out. [This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited January 24, 2001).]

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Post #: 28

- 1/25/2001 3:29:00 AM

rfox

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Larry: thank you for the confirmation. It would be REALLY nice if Matrix would update the manual with this kind of information. Are you saying, then, that the amount of force pool points I receive between campaign missions is a function of the level of defeat or victory from the preivious mission? Games such as Talonsoft's East Front employ this sort of performance point system allocation. It would be interesting if SP:WAW did the same sort of thing. Or, are the points randomly allocated? ------------------ ------------- Rob

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Post #: 29

- 1/25/2001 9:14:00 AM

Tombstone

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I've been able to pop s-35's with JpzI's and flank shots. Not a really viable tactic agaisnt the ai unless you have a lot of terrain that can mask the Jpz's.. cause they're pretty vulnerable. The 28mm squeezer can do the same. Tomo

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Post #: 30