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Arty Observer with/without LOS House Rules

 
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Arty Observer with/without LOS House Rules - 11/22/2002 11:09:23 PM   
Jack

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Does anybody use the following house rules when PBEM games are played? The artillery observer has to have LOS (line of sight) to target other than pre-registered hex to call in fire mission.
I know counter battery fire would use sound from enemy guns and calculate the distance, very primitive.
When you think about it, what would your new purchasing routine be? More arty observers or less using the logic you can't have them everywhere anyway expecially on a 100x240 map.
If you do use that house rule let me know what you think and how it affects play. Please and thank you.
Post #: 1
Just adding my 2 cents... - 11/22/2002 11:37:15 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		IMO, it seems like an unnecessary rule. Since both sides "benefit" from FO's being able to direct fire beyond their LOS, it's not unbalancing to gameplay. Besides, as long as he has coordinates (i.e. a map), an FO can at least try to direct fire to a position he can't see. You do get accuracy penalty for shelling beyond LOS, you know ;)

Sounds like lot of tedious extra management to me. And how can you even tell if your adversary does, or does not, have LOS to their target? :confused:

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- 11/23/2002 12:22:07 AM   
Jack

 

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Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Belisarius,
Thanks for your comments. I am just trying to jog my memory. I can't honestly remember ever reading about artillery that was always called in without LOS. The only exception being defensive positions calling for help. It's always an observer with LOS as far I read. If you could recommend a book with other references I will gladly add it to my collection.
Thanks again.

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- 11/23/2002 2:02:00 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Ah, I see. You're questioning the realism of FO's calling fire w/out LOS to target. There you may have a valid point.

I was more focused on the gameplay, wether that ability is unbalancing or not. There are lots of those little things in SP:WAW you can put limitations on in PBEM, but IMO I still think that too many rules spoils the fun. This *is* a game. A similar thing that comes to mind is the famous "spindance" that vehicles perform. They don't suffer movement points for spinning around on the spot and the can do it as much as they want. For one thing, it makes StuGs as effective as turreted tanks as long as they're not immobilized. But if one in some way would prohibit that in a game, would it really add to gameplay? I'm not sure.

So my point is; let everyone call in arty as they please and can. They still have to make priorities... ;)

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- 11/23/2002 6:22:57 AM   
Goblin


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From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		What about the "We know they are on that hill top, so blast it to Hell!" situation? Or the "We're hitting the beaches, the enemy knows we are coming, blow them to bits!".

There are many times when arty is used and you cannot see any of the target. Softening suspected positions, bombing, taking fire from a copse of trees, etc. If you limit it to the FO having to see the location, you take some of that away. You could lessen the restriction by saying that [I]any[/I] of your units must be able to see the artillery impact area, but still would disagree.



Goblin- A Goblin loves his arty!

:eek: :D

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- 11/23/2002 7:00:04 AM   
Jack

 

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From: Canada
Status: offline 		Goblin,
That's good. I like the wording. The observer must have LOS to impact area.

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Post #: 6
- 11/23/2002 5:07:46 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Not to beat a dead horse, Jack, but that's not what Goblin said. He said [I]any[/I] unit should have LOS to the impact area, not limited to the FO. Then we could argue if the troops could actually relay the message to the FO but hey, that's what C&C is for. :)

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Post #: 7
- 11/23/2002 9:33:35 PM   
Jack

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I quess I should clarify. Observer probably the wrong terminology. Replace observer with unit with comms.

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Post #: 8
- 11/23/2002 11:23:21 PM   
Jack

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Just to give everyone a heads up. Myself and a new opponent will be implementing this new house rule for the first time. It is on a 100x240 map. Meeting engagement, no pre-registered hexes allowed. Unit must have LOS to impact area. Just an experiment.
Playing H2H version, 13000 points each side. Eastern front, Sep 44.

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Post #: 9
- 11/24/2002 12:39:13 AM   
Redleg


Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		I take it that it is not a night battle?

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Post #: 10
- 11/24/2002 1:07:45 AM   
Jack

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		You are right. Visibility 30, turns 30. A night battle is a whole differnent ball of wax.

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Post #: 11
- 11/24/2002 1:57:21 AM   
Bing

 

Posts: 1366
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From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline 		There is also an artillery mode of fire called "FFE": Fire For Effect - which means pretty much what it implies. Combatants with lots of arty ammo - US and Soviet later in WW2 - will use this mode. You pick out an area and put as much artillery fire into it as you can; not a TOT, but something along those lines without the timing necessary to make TOT work correctly.

Frankly, the Soviets did not care if they could see what was in the impact area. In their view, quantity had a quality all its own - their words, not mine.

Bing

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Post #: 12
- 11/24/2002 2:10:26 AM   
Redleg


Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		Lots of artillery missions included:
Isolating portions of the battlefield
Interdicting troop movements
Harrassment
Free fire zones of suspected enemy concentrations (low priority targets to fill those quiet moments in an artillery battalion)

None of these included LOS or observers (necessarily).

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Post #: 13
- 11/24/2002 2:21:06 AM   
Jack

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Thanks for the input guys.

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Post #: 14
- 11/25/2002 5:41:24 AM   
Bing

 

Posts: 1366
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline 		American GI's learned the hard way. When they bedded down for the night, the Germans would infiltrate. After losing men to this rather obvious tactic, they instituted a practice of saturating the next stand of woods at first light. Might not be DivArty on call, no matter, they would pour everything they had into any woods, hedgerow or collection of buildings they felt might contain sneaky Germans.

They also learned the hard way about the Germans being master of the art of boobytrapping.

Bing

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Post #: 15
Sneaky tricks, or gaming the system? - 11/25/2002 9:33:05 AM   
Tomanbeg

 

Posts: 4385
Joined: 7/14/2000
From: Memphis, Tn, CSA
Status: offline 		Here we go. You can move a FO across the map in one turn if you plan it right. Load him on something that has a lot of MP's and run him over to another unit with a lot of MP's, unload, load and repeat as neccessary. It's risky, but I have been known to do this to get the accuracy bonus. I'll call the request from a FO vehicle then load up my Leg FO and move him to one of my 'battlefied taxis, then I'll keep going until I can put the FO in the hex with the unit that did the spotting. You have to keep a pool of jeeps, kibelwagons, staff cars, etc. available in the center of the map, and you don't often find a situation where it will be a big help. But I thnk your rule will lead to abuses like this. If you are that scared of arty, just turn the effectivness down to about 30%. Then It will be so usless that people will buy it only for the smoke. Which a FO doesn't effect anyway, AFAIK.
T.

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Post #: 16
- 11/25/2002 9:58:45 AM   
Jack

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Well we are in turn two now with our house rule. I did have an oppertunity to call in fire with a particular unit but he had no radio contact. That is unit with LOS. The next turn he did call it in however no where as good as the official observer. It will be arriving in 1.4 turns.

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Post #: 17
- 11/30/2002 5:36:55 AM   
Jack

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		It is now turn 6 or 7. I ended up using a crew from a Puma that was destroyed. His arty factor is 28, not that good when compared to the standard observer. I bought two observers but they are no where near the action. The fire mission originally took 1.4 turns to come in. Now that it is in and my crew still has LOS the fire is just as accurate as an observer with no penalty it seems.That's firing on the same hex of course. The problem is keeping him alive while in enemy LOS.

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Post #: 18
- 12/1/2002 7:11:44 AM   
Jack

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Well I have found a huge cluster of tanks, 8 within 2 hexes. Will they still be there when the time comes I don't think so. If my officail observer could call down the fire I am only looking at .4 delay which means it will start coming in at the end of the next players turn. It is making harder to take advantage of juicy targets. This is a PBEM game not against the AI.

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Post #: 19
- 12/2/2002 10:14:32 PM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Redleg
[B]Lots of artillery missions included:
Isolating portions of the battlefield
Interdicting troop movements
Harrassment
Free fire zones of suspected enemy concentrations (low priority targets to fill those quiet moments in an artillery battalion)

None of these included LOS or observers (necessarily). [/B][/QUOTE]

Jack,
I don't think any further rules are necessary. If you limit fire missions to 'LOS only' then on many maps you could only target your opponent's leading units...which would usually be adjacent to your own. This would cause an imbalance since (IMO, but from experience) certain countries have a tendency to have their shot fall long (SO; esp. katyushas), while others like the US fall short (i.e., onto friendly units). Blind fire on suspected areas already has its penalties: accuracy is reduced and effectiveness is halved. Also, by using a non-FO unit to order the mission you also incur a penalty in arrival time. By eliminating the common, legitimate missions that Redleg listed you remove a strategic facet of the game.

And if you're wondering, you'll be missing a well placed FO when you get your turn back :D

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