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RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 9:06:37 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Before WWII, no one knew for sure how air-power would work with ships. Carriers were developed of course, and specialized aviation squadrons and such, but it was all theory with no combat experience. So I have long thought that Italy's real failure was in the air, given their excellent access to land bases. I understand Italian aircraft designs were good, and I think WiF reflects that in the counters. But I think the Luftwaffe might have sunk more ships in the Med than the Regia Aeronautica, with less planes in theater. But I'm not sure and I have a lot to learn on the history of the air war in the Med. WiF certainly will lead you to an interest in that.

Churchill, on the other hand, probably looked at it more from the prism of Battleship #s and the balance of power therein, demonstrated so lamentably at Mers-el-Kebir in early July 1940....a sad part of the war that long-time WiF players can't quite grasp if they have played the game a lot before they ever learn about it.
Warspite1

a) The numbers are not even close iirc...the Regia Aeronautica could not compare with the Luftwaffe.

b) Not sure what you mean by that.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 61
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 9:28:17 PM   
micheljq


Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I do, however, confess that my knowledge on Napoleon and his actions are not as complete as I would like. So I would appreciate if someone could educate me to why Napoleon is considered a villain.


Quite normal that an englishman consider a villain someone who threatened to invade England.


_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 62
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 9:34:10 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I do, however, confess that my knowledge on Napoleon and his actions are not as complete as I would like. So I would appreciate if someone could educate me to why Napoleon is considered a villain.


Quite normal that an englishman consider a villain someone who threatened to invade England.

Warspite1

Indeed so - as would anyone from any country when threatened by some one else

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 63
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 9:40:50 PM   
michaelbaldur


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that is really nice to hear from a english man ...

lets just remember that the English invaded countries all around the world .. there no continent in the world were the british have not massacred ...

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 64
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 9:48:49 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


that is really nice to hear from a english man ...

lets just remember that the English invaded countries all around the world .. there no continent in the world were the british have not massacred ...
Warspite1

Mmmmm I think I know where this is going....

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 65
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 10:42:40 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


that is really nice to hear from a english man ...

lets just remember that the English invaded countries all around the world .. there no continent in the world were the british have not massacred ...
Warspite1

Mmmmm I think I know where this is going....

Enough on this off-topic topic.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 66
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 11:37:51 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Post #: 67
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 11:51:45 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

sorry my bad
Warspite1

Steve was not referring to you....you posted on topic.


michael and I have exchanged pm's and are

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 68
RE: unlucky navy - 4/10/2012 4:53:38 AM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

All I will say is when beta testing all aspects of the game should be explored even bad ones.


We really have insufficient information to judge his actions and why he chose them.

He mentioned Italian LAN but not how many of them, the results of the CW fleet Anti-aircraft fire, or the results of their attacks.

What were the search roll results?

What were the chosen combat types (11.5.8 Surface naval combat, 11.5.9 Naval air combat, 11.5.10 Submarine combat)?

Also the defense factor of the ships has to be considered.



Or he could just dislike the Royal Navy.




But this is what started the off topic part

_____________________________

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Post #: 69
RE: unlucky navy - 4/10/2012 6:24:45 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Fine - if you want to be the hero and take the blame for what was in effect, one, inoffensive, throw away line, then be my guest

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 70
RE: unlucky navy - 4/10/2012 7:21:35 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I'll take the blame because I started the real round. Without my post this would have died away...


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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 71
RE: unlucky navy - 4/10/2012 7:22:33 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


REVENGE






The German Moscow front looks as it has had a complete collapse.

< Message edited by Orm -- 4/10/2012 7:24:05 AM >

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 72
RE: unlucky navy - 4/10/2012 8:37:21 PM   
MajorDude


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

Warspite1

Do you not see Napoleon as a villain Orm?

I am not quite sure what he did that makes him qualify as a villain. He was involved in numerous wars but alot of them was more of a reaction that most of Europe did not accept revolutionary France (or Napoleon). It might be that he is a villian but so far he seems, to me, as bad (or good) as his contemporary statesmen in other countries.

I do, however, confess that my knowledge on Napoleon and his actions are not as complete as I would like. So I would appreciate if someone could educate me to why Napoleon is considered a villain.


To a large degree, one's perception of Napoleon depends on one's country of birth.

For instance, I just started reading Churchill's 6 volume set on WWII and I am struck by his opinion that a major difficulty for Germany in the years between the wars was that they did not have a monarch to serve as a unifying element for the populace. Being an American, it would never have occurred to me that lack of a monarch could be a fatal omission in a government. Churchill was a wise and very knowledgeable politician during those years, so his opinion can not be dismissed out-of-hand. But clearly he had a strong bias on this subject. Astonishingly so to me.

EDIT: And to bring this post back on topic, Churchill personally and the Admiralty in general were very concerned about the Italian navy versus the Royal Navy in the Mediterranean prior to WWII. Churchill gives that concern (that the Italians might have been able to defeat the RN in the Med) as one of the reasons that the British did not intervene militarily with the Italian conquest of Ethiopia.



I totally agree with this.

Napoleon "inherited" a country that was still in the throes of an extremely bloody revolution, that had just failed to establish a constitutional monarchy (as in England), and now found itself guilty of regicide. It is this regicide, and the new notion that countries and governments do not require a monarchical dynasty and a "blooded" nobility to exist, that was rightly seen by the remaining monarchs and nobles in Europe as real threat to their very existence.

Napoleon grabbed the reins of this "esprit de nation", modernized the country's industry and military, and did what Napoleon became famous for - strike first, divide, and conquer. This expansion into Europe did bring "republican" ideals (freedom, equality) and laws (Code Napoleon) to areas that had mostly always been under the yoke of one monarchy or another. It is even a bit ironic that a lot of this "fraternization" between former German principalities would in part help to pave the way for a unified Germany.

Napoleon's destiny, however, was inevitable. The further he pushed, the further he felt he needed to push. This insatiable drive only led him away from the ideals of the Republic to create an empire, much in the way the Romans had done, and much in the way that another would-be world conqueror would again try to do more than a century later.

Like him or not, the revolution changed Europe. It pushed a young Corsican artilleryman, Napoleon, to the lofty heights and aspirations of Empire. It lost it all, yet, in the end, it had forever changed this world. It had finally allowed many to realize, perhaps for the first time ever, that they too could have rights, benefit from freedom and equality, and live in a country with a government of the people, elected by the people, not by bloodlines.

Villain, hero, revolutionary, troublemaker - they all apply.



Back to topic - the Italian Navy was most defintely a strong force to be reckoned with. They just never seemed to be able to wield it in such a way as to make full use of its power.

< Message edited by MajorDude -- 4/10/2012 8:41:32 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 73
RE: unlucky navy - 4/10/2012 8:54:24 PM   
micheljq


Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline 		I am very tempted to reply to the last post about Napoleon but since it's out of the topic, no. It gives me back the taste to play "Empires in Arms" board game.

_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to MajorDude)
Post #: 74
RE: unlucky navy - 4/18/2012 6:50:14 PM   
brian brian

 

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Joined: 11/16/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Before WWII, no one knew for sure how air-power would work with ships. Carriers were developed of course, and specialized aviation squadrons and such, but it was all theory with no combat experience. So I have long thought that Italy's real failure was in the air, given their excellent access to land bases. I understand Italian aircraft designs were good, and I think WiF reflects that in the counters. But I think the Luftwaffe might have sunk more ships in the Med than the Regia Aeronautica, with less planes in theater. But I'm not sure and I have a lot to learn on the history of the air war in the Med. WiF certainly will lead you to an interest in that.

Churchill, on the other hand, probably looked at it more from the prism of Battleship #s and the balance of power therein, demonstrated so lamentably at Mers-el-Kebir in early July 1940....a sad part of the war that long-time WiF players can't quite grasp if they have played the game a lot before they ever learn about it.
Warspite1

a) The numbers are not even close iirc...the Regia Aeronautica could not compare with the Luftwaffe.

b) Not sure what you mean by that.


Mers-el-Kebir is arguably one of the saddest incidents of the war.

Through the 20/20 hindsight of history, adding several French heavy capital ships to the Axis inventory — when they hardly had the fuel to sail them and airpower was about to be proven to be quite a bit more decisive — he could have let the Vichy ships sail on to Germany or Italy and little in the war would have actually changed. Imo.


I am intrigued by the Luftwaffe sinking ships with Me-109s - no air-to-sea factors on those in WiF. Maybe the real Italians never built any NAV pieces - my hunch. They built the LND-3 SM79 and never got the one box bump for being a NAV and were thus no good out at sea.... ???? Unlike canny WiF players.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 75
RE: unlucky navy - 4/18/2012 7:39:05 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Before WWII, no one knew for sure how air-power would work with ships. Carriers were developed of course, and specialized aviation squadrons and such, but it was all theory with no combat experience. So I have long thought that Italy's real failure was in the air, given their excellent access to land bases. I understand Italian aircraft designs were good, and I think WiF reflects that in the counters. But I think the Luftwaffe might have sunk more ships in the Med than the Regia Aeronautica, with less planes in theater. But I'm not sure and I have a lot to learn on the history of the air war in the Med. WiF certainly will lead you to an interest in that.

Churchill, on the other hand, probably looked at it more from the prism of Battleship #s and the balance of power therein, demonstrated so lamentably at Mers-el-Kebir in early July 1940....a sad part of the war that long-time WiF players can't quite grasp if they have played the game a lot before they ever learn about it.
Warspite1

a) The numbers are not even close iirc...the Regia Aeronautica could not compare with the Luftwaffe.

b) Not sure what you mean by that.


Mers-el-Kebir is arguably one of the saddest incidents of the war.

Through the 20/20 hindsight of history, adding several French heavy capital ships to the Axis inventory — when they hardly had the fuel to sail them and airpower was about to be proven to be quite a bit more decisive — he could have let the Vichy ships sail on to Germany or Italy and little in the war would have actually changed. Imo.

Warspite1

quote:

Mers-el-Kebir is arguably one of the saddest incidents of the war.


No arguments on that score - very sad indeed

quote:

Through the 20/20 hindsight of history, adding several French heavy capital ships to the Axis inventory — when they hardly had the fuel to sail them and airpower was about to be proven to be quite a bit more decisive — he could have let the Vichy ships sail on to Germany or Italy and little in the war would have actually changed. Imo.


Only problem with that of course is that Winston S didn't have the benefit of that hindsight. At the time the French surrendered:

- The Germans and Russians had signed a pact - Germany (and Italy) would get the oil they needed from the Soviet Union.
- Gibraltar was under real threat of invasion - Churchill couldn't know that Franco would stay out of the war.
- With Gibraltar captured, imagine the fast battleships of the Littorio or the Dunkerque-classes running amok in the Atlantic.
- The day of the battleship at an end was not then proven. How many capital ships had been lost to air attack up to then?
- Churchill was not to know that the Italian Navy would prove unable to take advantage of the clear superiority they had in the Mediterranean.

Operation Catapult. Sad? Undoubtedly. Necessary? History suggests otherwise. Understandable on Churchill's part? Absolutely.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/18/2012 9:17:15 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 76
RE: unlucky navy - 4/19/2012 4:21:42 PM   
micheljq


Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline 		I faced that kind of situation in WiF as the Commonwealth.

Italy bombards the french fleet in southern France many times while France is busy defending the north against the whermacth. Italy manages to damage most of the french fleet in many port attacks.

Then France is vichied by Italy. Later Italy repairs the french now Vichy battleships. Gibraltar is overruned end of 1941.

Result : The Atlantic overuned by the Kriegsmarine, Italian fleet, and french Vichy fleet in 1942-43. Portugal invaded, Lisboa and Azores used by the italian as bases to raid my convoys. No Sealion were attempted, but I must say I feared for an invasion a lot by the end of 1941.

I managed to remain strong somewhat, the Azores remained a thorn for a long time and since Italy was using Lisboa port, I lost time retaking it. I think I did retake it end of 1943.

Allied did lose that game.

_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 77
RE: unlucky navy - 6/5/2012 1:31:59 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
this is what the BEF should look like.

4 HQ, 2 arm + div, 2 guns, 2 mecs, 2 mots, a ftr and a enigineer

have to admit I cheated a little. but fun




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to micheljq)
Post #: 78
bef - 6/5/2012 1:32:42 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline 		this is what the BEF should look like.

4 HQ, 2 arm + div, 2 guns, 2 mecs, 2 mots, a ftr and a enigineer

have to admit I cheated a little. but fun




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 6/5/2012 1:47:46 AM >

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to micheljq)
Post #: 79
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