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Jap player wanted - 4/15/2012 11:39:07 AM   
adsoul64


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/23/2012
From: Milan Italy
Status: offline 		Hi,

For my opponent left our game, I’m back looking for a challenging opponent. I would like a game making sense historically but not merely following the historical course of events. My Time Zone’s CET.
The Scenario would be 1 with those options:

Fog of War ON
Adv. Weather Effects ON
Allied Damage Control ON
Player Def. Upgrade OFF
Historical First Turn OFF
Dec. 7th Surprise ON
Reliable USN Torpedoes OFF
Realistic R&D your choice
No unit withdrawals OFF
Reinforcement Allied/Jap +/- 15 days
Combat Reports ON
Auto Sub Ops OFF
TF/plane move radius on
Set All Facilities to expand at start OFF
Auto upgrade ships and air group OFF
Accept air and ground replacement OFF
Combat animations OFF
Show Combat Summaries ON
Show clouds ON
Turn Cycle 1

HR:
- you must pay for restricted units crossing national borders;
- No 4E bombers below 10K ft (naval attacks only)
- invasions only in base/dot hexes
- no invasions with fragmented units.

I would like one turn a day if possible, but this is not in a rush. Obviously first few turns will require more time (especially the very first one). Game version is 1.0.6. 1108r9.
P.S. I read this from Panzerjaeger Hortlund:
“Personally I would like a "normal" (sort of) game. A nice, gentlemans game. Where neither player abuses the game-engine, but at the same time, neither player throws the "you broke against the unspoken HR"-book at the other. Is it possible? Judging from some threads, I think not, but I really hope there is such a player out there.” I wouldn’t be able to better describe the spirit of the game the I would like.
Post #: 1
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/15/2012 3:14:04 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		I would really like to suggest "Adv. Weather Effects OFF", unless you just love wading through mud and storms everywhere. It just doesn't work right.

I'd also suggest (for the sake of the Allied Player) using "No unit withdrawals ON". Not for historical accuracy, but to save a couple of hundred hours of drudgery during the game checking units (especially ships) for withdrawal dates and moving them to withdrawal sites. This gets real old real fast..., and WITP-AE is more than complicated enough without it.

(in reply to adsoul64)
Post #: 2
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/15/2012 5:06:24 PM   
aqui

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/9/2007
Status: offline 		to play a very realistic game but to give Jap a chance I suggest the following:
- Realistic R&D: Yes
- Victory conditions: 2 level in Jap favor...ally need to have a ratio 1.76-2.25 more than Jap to win a marginal and 2.26-2-75 to win a decisive.
- automatic victory: in '45 or beyond: one player need have 3 times the points of the other.

Obviously I offer the same conditions if you decide to be ally
aqui

(in reply to adsoul64)
Post #: 3
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/15/2012 6:17:42 PM   
adsoul64


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/23/2012
From: Milan Italy
Status: offline 		Mike, IMHO every single wargamer in every single game have at least one rule that he hates and he takes for sure he could have done it better! For me, in AE is C&C, for example! With all his flaws I think weather effect must be in because you cannot pretend you're wargaming without some uncertainty coming from weather

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 4
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/15/2012 7:18:50 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Weather is still unpredictable if you play Advanced weather off. With off, weather is generally better, but not too much better. Try it once.

(in reply to adsoul64)
Post #: 5
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/15/2012 9:53:59 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adsoul64

Mike, IMHO every single wargamer in every single game have at least one rule that he hates and he takes for sure he could have done it better! For me, in AE is C&C, for example! With all his flaws I think weather effect must be in because you cannot pretend you're wargaming without some uncertainty coming from weather



Actually, the weather is MORE uncertain with it off. When it's on, you pretty much KNOW every day will be a soggy mess. PUHIS is correct..., you should actually try the game with it off. Weather is still a concern and an annoiance---just not the be all and end all of play.

(in reply to adsoul64)
Post #: 6
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/15/2012 9:55:17 PM   
adsoul64


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/23/2012
From: Milan Italy
Status: offline 		I must have misunderstood the rules! Can you explain me in details, please? Many thanks in advance

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 7
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/16/2012 1:14:03 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		There's a "glitch" in the advanced weather programming that favours continual deteriortion of the weather conditions. So instead of creating a greater fluctuation in the weather conditions, "Advanced Weather" has a tendency to create a semi-permanent monsoon condition everywhere.

(in reply to adsoul64)
Post #: 8
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/16/2012 9:07:06 AM   
adsoul64


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/23/2012
From: Milan Italy
Status: offline 		Sure I'm missing something! The manual says "If the Advanced Weather Effects option is switched Off, the weather forecasts will always be Partly Cloudy". I guess weather will be Partly cloudy in every one out of the 9 areas. So, how the game can simulate differencies, i.e. monsoons in Sout East Asia, Winter in "Summer months" in Southern hemisphere and so on? Maybe you're stating that this differencies won't be simulated but the game just runs better with weather off? Thanks

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 9
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/16/2012 9:35:12 AM   
adsoul64


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/23/2012
From: Milan Italy
Status: offline 		Aqui, for Allies level is reduced two level in 1946 this means a ratio 1.76-2.25 would be a marginal JAPANESE vistory?

(in reply to aqui)
Post #: 10
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/16/2012 10:13:01 AM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adsoul64

Sure I'm missing something! The manual says "If the Advanced Weather Effects option is switched Off, the weather forecasts will always be Partly Cloudy". I guess weather will be Partly cloudy in every one out of the 9 areas. So, how the game can simulate differencies, i.e. monsoons in Sout East Asia, Winter in "Summer months" in Southern hemisphere and so on? Maybe you're stating that this differencies won't be simulated but the game just runs better with weather off? Thanks


Weather forecast is just forecast. It got nothing to do with actual weather in game. And I think monsoon or winter effects are compeletely different thing, you can turn weather off but you still have monsoon and winter seasons, and effects to supply movement or air reduced air operations. Even advanced weather on, game does not simulate for example winter or desert weather. It's just same storms everywhere, there's no "snowing" or "blizzard" weather...

Maybe you should play couple turns some smaller scenario with advanced weather off, to see what it's like?

< Message edited by Puhis -- 4/16/2012 10:14:27 AM >

(in reply to adsoul64)
Post #: 11
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/16/2012 10:26:04 AM   
adsoul64


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/23/2012
From: Milan Italy
Status: offline
quote:

Maybe you should play couple turns some smaller scenario with advanced weather off, to see what it's like?


Good idea, many thanks Puhis

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 12
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/16/2012 10:39:49 AM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Of course you can play your campain using whatever option you like, and I'm not trying to bully you to use the option I like. It's just that some of us think that advanced weather model is not working, and the game is really better without it.

And of course, some people think that advanced weather model is superb. So it might be a good idea to test both options before start a game that last maybe over 1000 turns...

(in reply to adsoul64)
Post #: 13
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/16/2012 10:45:18 AM   
adsoul64


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/23/2012
From: Milan Italy
Status: offline 		I'm used to the advanced weather and I think is all but perfect. But I thought the model with the option turned off is even worst

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 14
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/16/2012 10:51:13 AM   
aqui

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/9/2007
Status: offline 		no...a decisive Jap victory. To be more complete:

Victory level in 1945 (all campaign games finish on March 1946, so if players decide to stop on 15th of August 1945 they have to agree about this point at the beginning of the game) :
- Ally decisive: Ally VP score is 2.75 or more times higher than the Jap VP score
- Ally marginal: 2.25 - 2.74
- Draw: 1.75 - 2.24
- Jap marginal: 1.25 - 1.74
- Jap decisive: Ally VP score is 1.24 or less times higher than the Jap VP score

Victory level in 1946 (March '46):
- Ally decisive: Ally VP score is 3.75 or more times higher than the Jap VP score
- Ally marginal: 3.25 - 3.74
- Draw: 2.75 - 3.24
- Jap marginal: 2.25 - 2.74
- Jap decisive: Ally VP score is 2.24 or less times higher than the Jap VP score

If Ally uses more than 3 Atomic bombs the level moves 1 level in Jap favor...

Automatic victory: in '45 one player need have 3 times the points of the other
in '46 one player need have 4 times the points of the other

The problem is that the historical game is hardly unbalanced in Ally favor and this explain the escape of Jap players during 1943 and after. I could imagine only 4 solutions to this problem:
- to play the game sportingly performing the Japan role as in a theatre piece with the script and the end
widely known
- to play Reluctant Admiral mod (a 'What if...' mod)
- to play Hakko Ichiu (scenario 2) with R&D off (another 'what if' variant)
- to modify Victory conditions of historical scenario as I did before





(in reply to adsoul64)
Post #: 15
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/16/2012 4:13:55 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aqui

no...a decisive Jap victory. To be more complete:

Victory level in 1945 (all campaign games finish on March 1946, so if players decide to stop on 15th of August 1945 they have to agree about this point at the beginning of the game) :
- Ally decisive: Ally VP score is 2.75 or more times higher than the Jap VP score
- Ally marginal: 2.25 - 2.74
- Draw: 1.75 - 2.24
- Jap marginal: 1.25 - 1.74
- Jap decisive: Ally VP score is 1.24 or less times higher than the Jap VP score

Victory level in 1946 (March '46):
- Ally decisive: Ally VP score is 3.75 or more times higher than the Jap VP score
- Ally marginal: 3.25 - 3.74
- Draw: 2.75 - 3.24
- Jap marginal: 2.25 - 2.74
- Jap decisive: Ally VP score is 2.24 or less times higher than the Jap VP score

If Ally uses more than 3 Atomic bombs the level moves 1 level in Jap favor...

Automatic victory: in '45 one player need have 3 times the points of the other
in '46 one player need have 4 times the points of the other

The problem is that the historical game is hardly unbalanced in Ally favor and this explain the escape of Jap players during 1943 and after. I could imagine only 4 solutions to this problem:
- to play the game sportingly performing the Japan role as in a theatre piece with the script and the end
widely known
- to play Reluctant Admiral mod (a 'What if...' mod)
- to play Hakko Ichiu (scenario 2) with R&D off (another 'what if' variant)
- to modify Victory conditions of historical scenario as I did before







This is wrong and not how the game is set up.

1. An automatic victory is achieved when one side achieves the following condition.

(a) in 1943, a 4:1 ratio
(b) in 1944, a 3:1 ratio
(c) in either 1945 or 1946, a 2:1 ratio

2. An automatic victory = a decisive victory (but see point 4 below).

3. Although after an automatic victory the players are given the opportunity to continue the game, why would any player who has already achieved a decisive victory as represented by the auto victory, be once again required to prove afresh a decisive superiority over his opponent. In practical terms the side which lost an automatic victory will not be able to reverse the result subsequently.

4. The victory levels discussed in s.17.1 of the manual only come into consideration at the end of the scenario if no automatic victory was achieved before hand. These levels are there to represent that unless the Allies achieve an automatic victory no later than the historical Japanese surrender date, the Allied performance was inferior than it was historically and therefore it can never result in a decisive Allied victory.

5. It is therefore impossible for an Allied player to ever achieve a decisive victory after the historical Japanese surrender date. If in the Grand Campaign the Allied player was unable to generate the necessary VPs for an automatic victory before that date, they certainly will not be able to subsequently harvest the points to get up to ratios of nearly 4:1.


The game victory conditions have been specifically tailored for the code. There is no need to fiddle with them. If you want to continue playing to the end date of the scenario after an automatic victory has been triggered, the only mutual modification both players to consider is to move the final victory level one further level in favour of the side which earlier on achieved the automatic victory.

Alfred

(in reply to aqui)
Post #: 16
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/16/2012 6:45:58 PM   
aqui

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/9/2007
Status: offline 		I know what 17.1 says and it's clear that my proposal change what is in the rulesbook and only in this sense there is something (deliberately) wrong.

Your point 4 and 5 could cause confusion in people reading your explanation of the rules instead of the rules themselves. So better make a clarification.
About point 4: on15th august 1945, whatever the score could be, the game fall within one of the victory level described in 17.1 and the game end if players at the beginning of the game decided to stop at this point. If the game go on is only because there is no agreement to stop before march '46 (that is the end date of all campaign scenarios).
About point 5: original rules (17.2.3) say that with a ratio of 2:1 or more you still achieve an automatic victory in '46.

But these are not the point.

The point is that with the original victory conditions the ally always win.
Historically Allies didn't recaptured a lot of territories in Japan hand pointing directly against Japan and obtaining the Japan surrender through atomic bombs. In this way they save a lot of ally lifes obtaining the victory all the same. In the game atomic bomb don't give the victory and saving ally lifes doesn't give the same benefit than take territories. So any ally player quickly learn that take more territory as possible worth any ally blood price. Using this unhistorical behaviour allies collect a huge score that didn't historicaly do. ...It's unrealistic to pretend that Jap in 1945 makes the same points as ally to win.


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 17
RE: Jap player wanted - 4/17/2012 8:00:37 AM   
MrBlizzard


Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Hi,
I can play as Japan, I'm a gentlemen player with an aggressive style of playing.
I can play 4 or 5 turns a week cause I work, I'm too in Italy so timing is very important: during the week I can make my turn usually from 6 pm to 8.30. in weekend I'm more free except when I go away.
For HR I'd prefer PDU on cause I don't like to play with Nates in '45!!! :-)
What do you mean exactly when you say you like historical games?
Hi

(in reply to aqui)
Post #: 18
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