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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

 
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/15/2012 6:25:17 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour


quote:

Steve is targeting alot of diverse places - Kunming? Why? - including the Malaya airfields.


I call it recon by fire. I have no idea what the IJ recon assets are, but I'm guessing they are even more paultry then the entire allied CBI theater.

Japan has lots of recon units. Significant aircraft and their range in hexes: Mavis - 25; Dinah - 14; Babs - 13. All bombers and float planes can also do recon.

Kunming has some decent industry and is really THE key to the Burma road, in my opinion. No need to take on Burma if you have Kunming and LOC to the southeast. This also isolates Chungking nicely.


But not camera equipped and that makes a big difference in detection and detection levels. I don't consider it such a bonus. Recon is tough on the Allies at start but that is made up in spades later on.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/15/2012 10:54:14 PM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

You may know this already Dan, but a good tip for Chinese ground units is not to change their prep target. Once they get to 100 prep you can set them to train and their exp should rise up to 55 and morale up to 99. Much better than the 35/35 they start with! I know you are very adept at building defensive lines in China but a very determined Jap player can prevail if he brings enough troops. You dont have the supply to survive long term, unless you can keep the Burma road open. In my game I managed to capture Chungking in August 43.......and I consider land war the weakest part of my game.........

But this depends on giving the IJA a breathing space where they can concentrate enough force in China.

Making the JFB's fight in Malaya, PI, Burma, New Guinea, DEI, Aleutians etc makes them think about where there LCU are directed.

As seen in the other CR game hiccups in early operations can put a spanner in the plans of the JFB's.

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Post #: 92
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/15/2012 10:55:27 PM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

12/9/41


The Ethics in Chasing Lex and Ent: No question now that Steve was intentionally trying for an intercept.  I personally don't think that's kosher.  I would never do it as an IJ player.  This tells me Steve is aggressive and "no hold's barred."  I'm watching Mersing to see if he tries something similarly edgy there.  (Had I known Steve thought giving chase to the American CVs was acceptable, I would have emptied out Pearl Harbor on the 7th. I daresay he wouldn't have like that.)




ditto,

at least 7/12/41 should be historical.

It is really why I insist on playing the historic first turn. Just too many arguments and perceptions about what is OK and not on turn one.

I admit that when playing the historic turn, you are pretty much conceding the loss of one or both of the British BBs but in my experience that really does not matter much.




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Post #: 93
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/15/2012 11:01:29 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
The Ethics in Chasing Lex and Ent: No question now that Steve was intentionally trying for an intercept.  I personally don't think that's kosher.  I would never do it as an IJ player.  This tells me Steve is aggressive and "no hold's barred."  I'm watching Mersing to see if he tries something similarly edgy there.  (Had I known Steve thought giving chase to the American CVs was acceptable, I would have emptied out Pearl Harbor on the 7th. I daresay he wouldn't have like that.)

He didn't go for them on turn one, did he? How long should he spare the US CVs?
Didn't you already use them offensivly targeting his oilers?

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Post #: 94
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 12:15:02 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
The Ethics in Chasing Lex and Ent: No question now that Steve was intentionally trying for an intercept.  I personally don't think that's kosher.  I would never do it as an IJ player.  This tells me Steve is aggressive and "no hold's barred."  I'm watching Mersing to see if he tries something similarly edgy there.  (Had I known Steve thought giving chase to the American CVs was acceptable, I would have emptied out Pearl Harbor on the 7th. I daresay he wouldn't have like that.)

He didn't go for them on turn one, did he? How long should he spare the US CVs?
Didn't you already use them offensivly targeting his oilers?

I still haven't seen any confirmation of the make-up or the CV group that attacked Enterprise way out past Johnston Island, but CanoeRebel's statements imply he thinks KB was split on turn one into 4 CVs to attack PH and two to hunt for allied CVs. That would be a bit gamey, but so is AO hunting on turn 1. Not sure if CR waited until turn 2 to start hunting.
The thing that confuses the ID of the IJN TF is that only 10 Kates and 10 Zeros attacked Enterprise. This corresponds to CVL Ryujo's air complement with a strike one hex too far for Vals to join in. Waiting for further developments ....

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Post #: 95
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 5:19:41 AM   
Justus2


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Status: offline 		The targeting of the AOs was in a different AAR than this game, and IIRC it wasnt until they were spotted by nav search.

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Post #: 96
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 5:33:35 AM   
Keifer


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Status: offline 		No ethical violation IMO. I'm reading both sides of the AAR. He had a sighting (included screenshot) near Johnston on Dec 8 and reacted to it.

FYI - This is the only type of sharing I will do between AAR's. Just wanted you to know he seems to be playing a gentleman's game. Since you've escaped, I figured there is no harm.

< Message edited by Keifer -- 4/16/2012 5:41:01 AM >

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 6:32:42 AM   
Cribtop


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From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		FYI, I agree with Keifer. I'm reading both too, but think this is worth breaking radio silence for. PH had a TF sighting with "CV" in it, and thus was reacting to "in game" information rather than hindsight. Nagumo may have done the same given this info.

Edit: OK, Yamamoto may have ordered Nagumo to do something given this info, but you get the picture.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 4/16/2012 6:35:14 AM >

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Post #: 98
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 7:10:31 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

FYI, I agree with Keifer. I'm reading both too, but think this is worth breaking radio silence for. PH had a TF sighting with "CV" in it, and thus was reacting to "in game" information rather than hindsight. Nagumo may have done the same given this info.

Edit: OK, Yamamoto may have ordered Nagumo to do something given this info, but you get the picture.


But we really should be less harsh on Nagumo - like Jellicoe at Jutland, he was the only man on either side who could lose the war in an afternoon. Jellicoe didn't, Nagumo did!

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Post #: 99
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 7:35:40 AM   
Cribtop


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Status: offline 		True in many respects - caution with the one shot weapon that is the IJN CVs is well advised. Still, silly to put a non-aviator in command of KB just because it was his turn on the seniority ladder.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 9:01:51 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

FYI, I agree with Keifer. I'm reading both too, but think this is worth breaking radio silence for. PH had a TF sighting with "CV" in it, and thus was reacting to "in game" information rather than hindsight. Nagumo may have done the same given this info.

Edit: OK, Yamamoto may have ordered Nagumo to do something given this info, but you get the picture.


There are so many things we would do differently if we had no idea of the force composition and placement of the other side. The interesting question is always 'what is beyond the line of what is acceptable?' That's usually where an HR comes in handy.

Allied actions early for virtually every player could be called into question as they react to known forces moving to certain places. Sure, the Allies would have had some of this info, but it's possible in game to know exactly how much force can be applied during the first 5 turns especially and even what units will be present, for both sides. Just something we have to deal with in this game.

I do agree it would be uncouth to go after the US CVs on turn 1. Anytime after that seems okay as the Allied player also knows exactly what the capability of the other side is at that point, down to the number of planes in the KB and the exact ships, their speed, where the oilers are and which invasions forces are (most likely) moving already in the central and South Pacific.

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Post #: 101
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 2:26:49 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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Status: offline 		My carriers weren't going after anything.  They steamed generally south from their initial positions.

IMO, the first two or three days of the war are too early to go after the Allied carriers, at least if using in any way the warp speed factor of turn one to get into position.  If Steve used a Glen-equipped sub plus historic foreknowledge to gain his intel on Ent's position, I say "un-kosher."  If he truly got an independent sighting unrelated to the warp speed, and if he didn't pre-position part of the KB to get within striking distance, it's another matter.  However, the only way that could happen is if Ent stumbled across a sub, and if he didn't position the sub knowing where Ent would likely be).

Overall, there are too may questions about shooting for Ent on turn two for this to pass the small test.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 102
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 3:51:10 PM   
Schlemiel

 

Posts: 154
Joined: 10/20/2011
Status: offline 		I strongly disagree with your conclusion here, Canoe, though I will not elaborate since I am reading both AARs.  Just in principle though, if the KB knows Allied carriers are nearby, they almost have to react, since he can't know what you are planning to do with them and your opponent does know that you took out Chez's AOs when given the opportunity.

As an offhand question, are any of the glen equipped subs warp capable?  I don't remember seeing any when I was looking at the Japanese OOB, though I didn't look super closely.

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Post #: 103
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 4:48:21 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		12/10/42
 
A tough turn with lots of beatings all over the place and very few counter-licks to take pleasure in.  The only thing I got out of this turn was good intel on the location of enemy capital ships.

NoPac:  Quiet here.  I have had SigInt of enemy troops about transports bound for Attu and Umnak.  This could be misdirection (finding that out will tell me something about my opponent).  The Allies have two DD TFs and Saratoga enroute to NoPac.

CenPac:  The "Ent-chasing" IJN CV TF is still a bit NE of Johnston Island, while the main part of KB is well NW of Pearl.  The Japanese are certainly hanging around!  Ent and Lex are heading south and should scoot east of Tarawa tomorrow.  One USN CA is on duty at Tarawa.  The other two (plus the DMS squadron) will steam SW towards Tulagi.

SWPac:  Several Aussie cruisers are taking a stab at enemy shipping at Lae, and Triumphant is heading that way.

Eastern DEI:  Japan takes Sorong but hasn't penetrated as though Ambon and Koepang were immediate objectives (watching this to see if Steve used SigInt to give misdirections here, too).  Two Allied combat TFs are moving forward a bit - close to Ambon.  Force Z is hanging back and may return to Soerabaja if a move on Ambon isn't imminent.

Western DEI:  CVL Ryujo is posted north of Palembang and flies LRCAP over that base.  So Steve knows I am using a variety of patrols and transports to bring in reinforcements (at just 90 AV, I don't have anything menacing here yet and it will take a long time before I could...and I don't think I have a long time).  CL Tromp TF will try for an intercept tonight.  Lots of enemy activity around the southeastern section of the South China Sea (the only areas not under enemy threat at the moment are the Soerabaja area and the Makassar Straits).

Philippines:  Mini KB is posted well to the east of Luzon and picks off two AS and several other ships.  She'll get more tomorrow. Two IJN DDs pick off three antiquated USN DDs near Manila.  Lots of USN subs fire shots, with all missing and one dud.

Burma:  Big problems here as massed waves of Betties clobber the Burma army unit at Meiktila and IJA paratroops then take the base.  I'm posting some LRCAP over the base to try to interdict air reinforcements and I'll see if I can recalim the base.  The Burma road is closed.

China:  Too ealry to see what's developing here, except Steve is moving fast to try to isolated Chengchow.

The Big Picture:  The Allies know where 10 CAs are (not including those posted with KB - I haven't opened a beginning of game file to see which cruisers go with KB), the KB, and all but one of the light carriers.  I haven't seen much of the battlewagons yet.  Overall, though, I'm getting a pretty good picture of the disposition of enemy capital ships, which is the one thing I feel good about.

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Post #: 104
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 8:40:03 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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Status: offline 		12/11/42
 
NoPac:  A wandering enemy TF of unkown strength is west of Prince Rupert (!).  I estimate this to be a scouting DD or two, and Saratoga is only nine hexes to the SSE.  Sara will steam up the inland channel to refuel at Prince Rupert, with all aircraft range reduced to three (don't want to strike the enemy unless the threat comes real close).  A USN DD TF enroute to Dutch Harbor is very close and will try for an intercept.

CenPac:  Main KB element near French Frigate Shoals.

SWPac:  Canberra and Perth sink CL Kashima near Lae.

Eastern DEI:  I've got the location of all Japanese carriers now.  CL Marblehead just north of Ambon did the hard work, accepting a TT from a Kate that was launched from Taiyo.  The Japanese caught wind of other Allied cruisers, so Steve won't pentrate further (IMO) until he has his ducks in a row plus sufficient support.  Accordingly, Boise/Houston TF will retire to a point south of Ambon to protect that port.  Force Z will retire to Soerabaja.

Western DEI:  Japanese invasion of Palembang lands 400+ AV.  The Allies have just a smidgeon over 100 AV, so this doesn't look good for the good guys.  Allied 2EB and some 4EB will see if they can disrupt some of the enemy, but I'm not optimistic.  SigInt that enemy amphibious force is bound for Mersing.

Philippines: USAAF fighters do a good job vs. unescorted Nells and other strike aircraft.  Steve got a bloody nose here today.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 105
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 8:45:20 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

Western DEI: Japanese invasion of Palembang lands 400+ AV. The Allies have just a smidgeon over 100 AV, so this doesn't look good for the good guys.


So much for Fortress Palembang in this game. But from what I read above, the IJA isn't moving very fast in either Malaya or the Philippines.

< Message edited by Capt. Harlock -- 4/16/2012 8:48:24 PM >

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Post #: 106
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 8:51:40 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		While its still too early for me to accurately and comprehensively assess what's going on, here's my estimate:

Malaya:  Routine enemy landings and advance.  Bombers are not being used to slow the retreat by Allied units.

Burma:  Paratroops used to seize Mekteila bodes ill for China and for Burma army.

China:  Level of commitment not clear yet, but I suspect Steve will push hard.

Philippines:  Routine enemy landings and advance thus far.  Bombers not used to slow Allied retreat.

Western DEI:  Uh oh in Sumatra and western Borneo.

Eastern DEI:  Enemy not moving rapidly (yet).  No attention given to Makassar Straits.

SWPac:  Enemy moving fairly quickly but not well covered.

CenPac:  KB present.  (Oh, I forgot to mention that Steve's invasion of Wake went awry today.  He'll have to try again).

NoPac:  I think he's going to try to seize some undefended Aluetian islands, but I'll do my best to thwart him.



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Post #: 107
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 9:30:26 PM   
Gridley380


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

12/11/42
 
NoPac:  A wandering enemy TF of unkown strength is west of Prince Rupert (!).  I estimate this to be a scouting DD or two, and Saratoga is only nine hexes to the SSE.  Sara will steam up the inland channel to refuel at Prince Rupert, with all aircraft range reduced to three (don't want to strike the enemy unless the threat comes real close).  A USN DD TF enroute to Dutch Harbor is very close and will try for an intercept.



I'm curious - why cut the attack range? I'm always happy to kill an IJN DD, and the combat experience will be good for your SBD crews. Early war IJN flak shouldn't do more than poke some easily-repaired holes.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 108
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 9:32:55 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

12/11/42
 
NoPac:  A wandering enemy TF of unkown strength is west of Prince Rupert (!).  I estimate this to be a scouting DD or two, and Saratoga is only nine hexes to the SSE.  Sara will steam up the inland channel to refuel at Prince Rupert, with all aircraft range reduced to three (don't want to strike the enemy unless the threat comes real close).  A USN DD TF enroute to Dutch Harbor is very close and will try for an intercept.



What is traveling with the Saratoga TF? Do you think it's enough of a worry to detach a few DD as a SCTF to cover in case of a night confrontation?

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 109
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 9:44:39 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380
I'm curious - why cut the attack range? I'm always happy to kill an IJN DD, and the combat experience will be good for your SBD crews. Early war IJN flak shouldn't do more than poke some easily-repaired holes.


At this time and in this place, stealth is far more important than a scout DD or two.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Obvert
What is traveling with the Saratoga TF? Do you think it's enough of a worry to detach a few DD as a SCTF to cover in case of a night confrontation?


Saratoga TF is by itself, though there is a five DD TF not to far to the west (this is the TF shooting for an intercept).

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/16/2012 9:46:51 PM >

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Post #: 110
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 9:56:43 PM   
khyberbill


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quote:

you are pretty much conceding the loss of one or both of the British BBs but in my experience that really does not matter much.

I agree, I am not sure what I would do if I even had these two in a game! They always go down the first two turns.

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Post #: 111
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 10:06:00 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I'll expand on the thought about stealth in hopes that it might intrigue players that are new to the game.

Steve would send me a box of chocolates, a dozen roses, and a bottle of cabernet sauvignon if I revealed Saratoga's position by sinking an IJN DD or two.  He would be absolutely ecstatic.  And with good reason.

He would know that Ent and Lex had not combined with a third fleet carrier that might pose a big threat to his two-fleet-carrier CV force that trailed Ent.

He would know that at worst he faced two fleet carriers in the south in coming weeks and could plan accordingly.

He would know the threat level in NoPac and would plan accordingly.  He might scrub his amphibious operations and he might try to orchestrate a suitable clash.

At this point in the game, USN CV "fleet in being" status should be compromised only for serious gains that are much more significant than picking off the occasional small fry.

Along those same lines, carrier sorties are precious.  Use them up on small fry, have to retire to replenish, and you lose days or weeks of time that could be better used.

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Post #: 112
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/16/2012 10:07:39 PM   
Gridley380


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Status: offline 		I figured you had a good reason. :-)

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Post #: 113
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/17/2012 9:23:15 AM   
Galahad78

 

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Status: offline 		And you say you don't like mind games

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Post #: 114
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/17/2012 6:50:15 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		12/12/42
 
Sumatra:  Fortress Palembang manages to hold out for five days, as 480 Japanese AV blast through the meager defenses to ensure that the Allies don't get that happy, frisky feeling in the DEI.  Tokyo Rose makes her ingratiating announcement - a happening that we Allied players always enjoy - and the Allied high command takes on a glum look. To add some additional pain to the day, CAs Tone and Takao bore into Oosthaven, sinking CA Exeter and two CLs. 

Where to From Here?:  Okay, so what do the Allies do in the DEI now?  I'm shifting most of my airlift capacity to getting troops to Koepang.  This may be a temporary diversion while I weigh my options or this may be a long-term undertaking.  BBs Hyuga and Ise are just north of Ambon.  CA Houston and CL Boise will make a stand there.

Phillipines:  It appears that the Luzon garrison should make it to Clark Field in good shape.

Malaya:  The enemy is landing at Mersing in strength, but by and large most of the Allied army will make it to Johore Bharu and Singers.

SoPac and SWPac:  Ent and Lex just passed between Tarawa and Tabituea.  I don't think they've been sighted.  Two USN cruisers are enroute to Milne Bay.  A mixed TF including CA Canberra will report to Rabaul.

CenPac: Part of the KB still loitering around French Frigate Shoals for some reason.

NoPac:  That wandering IJN force of undertimined composition scattered several US TFs.  Saratoga was very close.  I don't know if Steve got a peek at her or not (detection levels are zero, but that's no guarantee).  Sara will proceed north away from Prince Rupert.  The IJN TF is at the southern end of that same inland passage on a course that would take it to Prince Rupert. 





< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/17/2012 6:51:38 PM >

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Post #: 115
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/17/2012 7:20:33 PM   
paullus99


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Status: offline 		Perhaps, with his focus on Palembang & Singapore, you could find another Fortress location? I know that supply is always going to be an issue - but any other good place to create a decent speed bump for him?

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Post #: 116
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/17/2012 7:30:36 PM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
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From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		In a previous game DSwain was building quite an effective fortress Koepang against me. Although Timor can be isolated if surrounding bases fall, the invasion of Koepang itself is problematic if a good garrison plus CD guns plus mines are employed as the overland march from Dili and Lautem is a long slog through the jungle with no trails.

Then again, beware the fate of Castor Troy's opponent who took Koepang but was isolated and annihilated. Because of this IMHO Fortress Koepang can be an effective speed bump but is a somewhat risky "all in" option.

Then again again, the DEI is where KB goes to die, so perhaps a naval exchange battle here ain't such a bad idea from the Allied perspective.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 4/17/2012 7:34:47 PM >

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(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 117
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/17/2012 7:37:51 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		How to slow down Japan depends upon many variables, but in this game my best shot is to use my navy effectively.  Since the KB is far away, he can't get too frisky in the DEI.  He has to establish airfields before he sticks out his nose too far.  Once the KB has time to get into play, though, all bets are off. 

At this point, the Allies don't have a great number of options.  I need to get all the troops into Clark Field and Singers so that those bases don't fall too easily.  Then I need to try to keep Steve honest in the eastern DEI, using my navy to slow him down.  A few small speed bumps at Koepang and maybe a few other places would be nice.

(in reply to Cribtop)
Post #: 118
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/17/2012 7:50:39 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		Cocos Island or Port Blair are possible fortresses

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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 119
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/17/2012 7:53:27 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Port Blair will get two Indian brigades - enough to force Steve to make a serious effort, but not enough to get bypassed and rendered irrelevant.

Cocos is sometimes a criitical base, but I don't see it being very useful as this game is shaping up.  I might try to get a garrison there - 100 AV or so - if I get the chance, but I don't know that I will.

Diego Garcia is also getting a Indian brigade to make sure Steve can't take it on the cheap.

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 120
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