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2nd Tutorial? - 1/19/2001 4:59:00 AM   
Don

 

Posts: 810
Joined: 7/12/2000
From: Elk Grove, CA (near Sacramento)
Status: offline 		I have a chance to work on a scenario that will be released in a normal, tough version, but I think this scenario would also lend itself very well to be made into a kind of 2nd tutorial, one that could be played after playing the one in the game. New players would face a few more obstacles, and just generally get exposed to a few more things that they'll have to get better at later. If you're new to this game, or new enough to where you'd of liked to see another tutorial (or not), please give me your opinion on whether I should go forward on this. Don

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Don "Sapper" Llewellyn
Post #: 1
- 1/19/2001 5:04:00 AM   
USMCGrunt

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 1/17/2001
From: Yarmouth, ME, US
Status: offline 		I have to go along with Don. Although I've been playing Steel Panthers since SP1 and am confortable with the system, I've introduced a few other people to SPWAW that aren't the Grognard type. I user spend about a week answering questions. A second tutorial introducing more of the features would be most welcome. ------------------ USMCGrunt -When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

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USMCGrunt Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll! -Rudyard Kipling-

(in reply to Don)
Post #: 2
- 1/19/2001 6:04:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		I wrote the first tutorial and designed the scenario to go with it. I did only cover the basics, working with units on the map, basic move-fire tactics. Now a second tutorial (advanced) would be an excellent idea. It should include the ability to edit units, reassign units, dealing with reinforcements, off map units, etc. How to assign artillery and use air support would be some of the things that should be included. If you do one, Don, you should consider writing a 2nd Tutorial for it so as to guide the player as he attempts to use the new features. I hope you will do it. WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

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Post #: 3
- 1/19/2001 7:06:00 AM   
Don

 

Posts: 810
Joined: 7/12/2000
From: Elk Grove, CA (near Sacramento)
Status: offline 		Thanks for the input, guys. Your support, WB, means alot and I'll see what "we" can do. But, you put alot of stuff in there that should be included, and that would mean that I would have to know how to use them properly first! LOL BTW, Grunt, that saying below your name is great. I was ROTFL! I'd like to hear from some "new recruits" as to how they feel about this subject, but as it is I think I'll plan on going ahead with it. Don

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Don "Sapper" Llewellyn

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Post #: 4
- 1/19/2001 8:50:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		You'll do just fine. It's a great undertaking. Keep us posted, Don. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

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Post #: 5
- 1/19/2001 9:26:00 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		Wild Bill suggested some excellent subjects for the second tutorial. I need to learn to edit units, use my artillery properly and even use the reinforcements. I think there are other s like me who have been playing the game for a while but still haven't mastered all the SPWAW arts. After all this game is pretty deep. I kbnow I was anxious just to get out there playing and didn't spend enough time in boot camp.

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quote:

Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"

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Post #: 6
- 1/19/2001 9:33:00 AM   
jorlando

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 1/12/2001
From: s. paulo - sp - brazil
Status: offline 		Hi, Don! I'm a newbie in wargames and I think that a second (and a third, fourth...) tutorial would be very helpful to make people understanding the basics of the wargaming in SPWaW... well, with the sugestions of WBW, not so basic :-) So... two new tutorials wouldn't be more adequate? An intermediate and a more advanced? orlando

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Post #: 7
- 1/19/2001 10:36:00 AM   
Don

 

Posts: 810
Joined: 7/12/2000
From: Elk Grove, CA (near Sacramento)
Status: offline 		Excellent suggestions! Keep em comin'! Don

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Don "Sapper" Llewellyn

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Post #: 8
- 1/19/2001 10:59:00 AM   
Panzer Capta


Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2000
From: Bedford, NH, USA
Status: offline 		Particularly one covering the finer points of "Command Control and Orders"

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Post #: 9
- 1/19/2001 11:23:00 AM   
rfox

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 1/14/2001
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I am a relative newcomer to SPWAW. I had never played any of the original SP series. I would very much like to see a more detailed tutorial which includes all of the features WB mentioned. The first tutorial was good, but there are so many features to this game that a more in-depth tutorial is very much needed. Especially for us green recruits! Thanks, and I look forward to it. ------------------ ------------- Rob

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Rob

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Post #: 10
- 1/19/2001 11:34:00 AM   
bchapman


Posts: 302
Joined: 3/30/2000
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		I'm with Drex. I've been playing this game since it came out, and the older versions of SP before that. There are still many facets of the game that I haven't learned yet. Editing units, C&C still gives me headaches, reinforcements, off map units, etc. are all areas that I could use some training in. So, please do make a 2nd tutorial scenerio along with a written guide. A great idea! Bascom

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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."<br />- Gerald Ford

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Post #: 11
- 1/19/2001 11:38:00 AM   
Bonzo

 

Posts: 676
Joined: 9/3/2000
From: Peace River, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		This is a great Idea & one that I incorporated into my Combat Leader website under Tutorials. My idea was a sort of virtual officer candidate school with lessons and tutorial scenarios on all aspects of wargaming. Even tiny 3-4 turn scenarios that teach some of the finer points of fortification assaults & anti-armour ambushes, setting up kill zones & coordinating combined arms, etc. This would help make the new recruits into challenging opponents much quicker, increasing their enjoyment of the game & giving you new opponents. My site is pretty much geared towards CL, but from reading about Pack Rat's plans for a site, I see a pretty good fit for the SP side of things. Perhaps he would like to host an area for this? ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters Main http://nwbattalion.tripod.com E-mail [email]nwbattalion@icqmail.com[/email]

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Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Webmaster 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters Main http://www.nwbattalion.com E-mail

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Post #: 12
- 1/19/2001 12:20:00 PM   
Don

 

Posts: 810
Joined: 7/12/2000
From: Elk Grove, CA (near Sacramento)
Status: offline 		I can see that this could easily turn into several scenarios! Which is great - I'd be willing to do more than one. But any tutorial about Command & Control will have to come from someone else, as I don't use it and have no idea how it works! This is something I'm doing as a joint project with Fabio Prado, and since it was his idea to work together on a couple of scenarios, anything we do here (one or two tutorials) will be posted on his site. I think it's a great idea to have tutorials on other sites however, the more the better! Don

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Don "Sapper" Llewellyn

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Post #: 13
- 1/19/2001 12:39:00 PM   
Bonzo

 

Posts: 676
Joined: 9/3/2000
From: Peace River, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		Not to worry Don I intended to aim my post at a wide audience of veteran players. As the tiny scenarios I spoke of might be aimed at individual field exercises, eg: Take out a bunker supported by a MG nest with a platoon of men, an MG squad & a 3" mortar. teach them suppressive fire, use of smoke, maneouver under fire & close assault. Given the tiny size of the map required, limited scope & small number of units involved, this could be relatively easy way for a veteran player (but novice scenario designer) to cut his teeth on scenario design & map making. What is important in these scenarios would be the lesson passed on, not who can make the prettiest map (though pretty is nice! Just an idea I throw out to the group. ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters Main http://nwbattalion.tripod.com E-mail [email]nwbattalion@icqmail.com[/email]

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Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Webmaster 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters Main http://www.nwbattalion.com E-mail

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Post #: 14
- 1/19/2001 12:44:00 PM   
Bing

 

Posts: 1366
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Don - You have the basis of a fine idea here. Intermediate and advanced tutorials are very much needed in my view. I classify myself as an experienced gamer, with 40+ years in board and computer gaming. The artillery aspect of WAW threatened what little remaining sanity I have, until I put a lot of work into testing. Now I have a pretty good idea of how arty operates in the game, but I won't begin to attempt to calculate the hours it required to get there. Don't let this idea drop by the wayside. SP:WAW is a rich and nearly infinitely flexible tactical ground combat system, the hours we put into learning the system are very much worthwhile and the online help via the message board is the best I've seen anywhere. But the newbie - not necessarily new to gaming, either - will get a lot more out of the game a lot faster if we take the tutorials up a couple of levels. Press on regardless! (Where have I heard that before? Oh, yes, the US Army.) Bing

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Post #: 15
- 1/19/2001 12:58:00 PM   
Don

 

Posts: 810
Joined: 7/12/2000
From: Elk Grove, CA (near Sacramento)
Status: offline 		You're right Bonzo, there's lot's of room here for tutorials of all types - taking out a bunker would make for a GREAT tutorial! You hit on something else that would be great for an in-depth tutorial, and that is scenario design. We see so many questions on the forum all the time, and we will continue to as long as there is nowhere these new designers can get their questions answered. WB's tutorial covered alot, but there's alot of other features that need to be explained, and I don't feel nearly qualified to take that on. Good idea though. Bing - thanks for the encouragement! Maybe we will have to call on you for some of that artillery expertise, so stay by that phone! Don

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Post #: 16
- 1/19/2001 2:56:00 PM   
Bing

 

Posts: 1366
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Don - I'm far from being an expert, at SPWAW or anything else for that matter. But I have done a good bit of testing of the version 4.5 artillery routines. Some of the findings run counter to received wisdom, may not be popular, all the same I knows what I sees. Drop an e-mail if you want to discuss further: Byron Inglesh bing2@avci.net

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"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has a Taste And A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know. " -
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website

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Post #: 17
- 1/19/2001 8:45:00 PM   
jonhooper

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 1/14/2001
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Don, This is my first week to play SPWaW. I would like to see another tutorial. The first one was great, and it got me into the game quickly. But I would appreciate a second, more complex one.

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Post #: 18
- 1/19/2001 9:11:00 PM   
degen


Posts: 166
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: California
Status: offline 		Don- I think this is a great idea. Using specific battles to illustrate the best tactics in given situations would give us all a chance to sharpen our skills. The basics of the game could be mastered with practice, but the advanced skills and tactics take time and patience to master. I'm looking forward to what you produce. Besides, as a fellow Elk Grove resident, I have to give you my support! ------------------ "I would have much rather that he had given me one more division" - Rommel after receiving his field marshall baton

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"I would have much rather that he had given me one more division" - Rommel after receiving his field marshall baton

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Post #: 19
- 1/20/2001 12:12:00 AM   
RUsco

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 8/11/2000
From: Grand Rapids,MI USA
Status: offline 		Great Idea. Assaulting a pillbox through a mine field,barbed wire,infantry and mg's. Basics of using coordinated Artillary, Infantry, and Engineers.

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Post #: 20
- 1/20/2001 3:34:00 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		i came across a website dedicated to a naval game where when you joined you had to attend an officer's candidate school where you went through exercises on the various facets of the game. After you "graduated", you were allowed into the main arena of players where all the big dogs were. I don't think we have to go that far, but its an idea to throw out.

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quote:

Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"

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Post #: 21
- 1/20/2001 4:22:00 AM   
Don

 

Posts: 810
Joined: 7/12/2000
From: Elk Grove, CA (near Sacramento)
Status: offline 		These are all great ideas! jonhooper: You are exactly the kind of player this meant for. Most of us had to just "feel" our way along, figuring things out on our own. It's doubly hard if you haven't played SP before. This game is like chess - easy to learn but hard to learn the "nuances" of. degen: I've made friends from Canada, Brazil and Finland here, but I'm amazed to find somebody from little ol' Elk Grove. Been blacked-out yet? I haven't yet. RUsco: Those things are great, but I don't think they'll go in the first one. The one I'm doing here will be about flanking, tank action and a little bit of town fighting, with artillery and maybe airpower thrown in. And whatever else I can stick in. I'm already planning on doing more than one, because of the need and all the great ideas. Drex: Maybe the best idea I've seen yet! Some kind of Bootcamp that would have class and mini-scenarios to teach all different things. Wow. Way beyond the scope of my thinking here, but if different people got together and made these scenarios they could be put together on someone's website. Man that is great! I really, really appreciate all the feedback, and there is obviusly a need for these. I'll start work on the first one right away, with hopefully more to come. I will talk to Fabio, my teammate on this, and work out what we will do. Don

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Post #: 22
- 1/21/2001 4:53:00 AM   
Don

 

Posts: 810
Joined: 7/12/2000
From: Elk Grove, CA (near Sacramento)
Status: offline 		Here is my plan for tutorials: As Bonzo is doing for CL, I would like to set up a number of small mini-scenarios covering one subject each, accompanied by a text file. A rookie player could work on one subject until he is satisfied that he knows it, and have alot of them to choose from. Right now I have someone to do one on artillery (thanks Bing), and Fabio will do one on taking on a Tiger with a Sherman (or Shermans). I will probably do something like taking on bunkers. All you veterans out there, I need help. I need you to pick a subject that you know well, and do a small scenario on it. I will supply a map if needed. I don't even care if several people do the same subject - one person may cover things another one didn't. This not a rush job - if you can help out it doesn't have to be right away. If you think you can help anytime in the near future please let me know. Let's give the benefit of our knowledge - this is something that will be used alot for a long time to come. Thanks Bonzo, for the inspiration. Don egcwman@mindspring.com

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Post #: 23
- 1/21/2001 5:48:00 AM   
RUsco

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 8/11/2000
From: Grand Rapids,MI USA
Status: offline 		Send me a small map. I will try to do the assault through a mine field,ect.

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Post #: 24
- 1/21/2001 6:24:00 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline 		Another possible suggestion is to provide these tutorial scenarios with a copy of the last turn in the VCR buffer. That way the student can see the tactic in action!! Reg.

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Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

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Post #: 25
- 1/21/2001 6:59:00 AM   
Don

 

Posts: 810
Joined: 7/12/2000
From: Elk Grove, CA (near Sacramento)
Status: offline 		RUsco, thank you! How big of a map do you think? 40x40? 50x50? Let me know and I will make one up. You can email me too. Reg, I don't really understand what you're saying, probably because I've never used the VCR function. Would you explain, either here or by email? Thanks alot, guys! Don

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Don "Sapper" Llewellyn

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Post #: 26
- 1/21/2001 12:53:00 PM   
Tankhead

 

Posts: 1352
Joined: 6/21/2000
From: Yukon Territory Canada
Status: offline 		Hi Don! Great Idea I already sent you a private e-mail for my contribution. In Tankhead's army you don't march or died you march and died! Tankhead ------------------ Rick Cloutier [email]rcclout@telusplanet.net[/email] Coordinator: Tankhead's SPWAW Resources http://members.tripod.com/tankhead__1

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Tankhead


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Post #: 27
- 1/21/2001 2:18:00 PM   
degen


Posts: 166
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: California
Status: offline 		Don- Yes, I was surprised also to see someone else from Elk Grove. Given the diversity of locations on this forum it is quite a coincidence! Hope this project goes well for you. There seems to be a real need for it and it would be fun to have some short limited scope scenarios to play. I have not tried to design a scenario, so I probably can't help you on that end. I could help you on some limited playtesting if needed. Let me know. [This message has been edited by degen (edited January 21, 2001).]

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"I would have much rather that he had given me one more division" - Rommel after receiving his field marshall baton

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Post #: 28
- 1/21/2001 3:24:00 PM   
k1w1

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 12/11/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Yes please. Another more advanced tutorial can only make this great game better so that us FNG's can play it beter & have a chance against some of the vets. ------------------ Is attack the best form of defence?

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them nor the years condem At the going down of the sun & in the morning we will remember them.

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Post #: 29
- 1/21/2001 3:25:00 PM   
degen


Posts: 166
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: California
Status: offline 		Btw Don, no blackouts for us either. Have seen alot of darkened offices and hallways at work though. But I still see people and business with lights on at night. Doesn't make sense given power crisis we are in. For those of you who have not heard, electric power deregulation is a colossal failure in California (these are the governor's words for it!). You think that electricity is a given and that it would not be a worry in the US, but leave it to the politicians to find a way to screw it up. There doesn't seem to be a quick fix to the problem, so we will be dealing with it for quite a while. Really looking forward to that hot summer... ------------------ "I would have much rather that he had given me one more division" - Rommel after receiving his field marshall baton

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"I would have much rather that he had given me one more division" - Rommel after receiving his field marshall baton

(in reply to Don)
Post #: 30
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