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RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A)

 
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RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 4/30/2012 9:49:49 PM   
Teikoku Kaigun

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 3/23/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Yes, he landed 170 AV in Sinkawang. The CVL was there for LR-CAP, the the CA seem to have been the surface protection. More than week regarding 3 GB CL, 2BB/BC and 2 Dutch CL within one day steaming range...


And what units?
How many hexes out was the CVL?
Sorry i dont understand the last sentence? What date is this in the game?

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 31
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 4/30/2012 9:53:13 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		If you're playing two games, you can't behave the same way in both, I feel. This is his biggest mistake.

I know you don't want to talk about the discussion on PH and HRs and such. I will just say my first PBEM opponent did a similar thing, emptying PH on day 2. Turned out not so well though because day 3 had IJN bombers set to Naval/port strikes to find the missing ships. A lot of quick combat ships made it away, but the support ships that were slower did not, and it turned into a bit of a massacre of those. I was quite happy with it.

So there is no real need to talk about history, just make a counter move. If you have the guts to stay for day 2 and your opponent opens the door for more days of attacks, make use of that.

No need to respond, just wanted to share that.


(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 32
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 4/30/2012 10:11:37 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
quote:

If you're playing two games, you can't behave the same way in both, I feel. This is his biggest mistake.

THAT is the point! He exactly knew that I read both his and Canoe's AAR. I even asked him whether I am allowed to continue reading his AAR. He said it is fine.

He said I shouldn't react too much on what he did with Canoe, so I didn't send the Subs to the hex where KB usually is, nore did I do any other specific turn one moves that help when you know exactly where which ship is.

But as he knew, it'd be quite easy for him to react. You can leave your regular turn one as it is, all you have to do is change a handfull of TFs. This way, I might have faced a few more cruisers or BBs instead. I even expected him to do so, in fact, I was absolutly sure that he wouldn't do the exact same things which he seems to have done.

But even with my knowledge, there can be no doubt that I would've tried to hit the identified troopships off Skingkawang. I thought they go directly for Palembang, and if my knowledge of his moves did one thing, they even made me more cautios! I knew there'll be at least one carrier, so I hoped to get Force Z out of the way in time. I defenitly didn't plan to do a surface intercept of his carrier. All I wanted to do was strike his troopships and maybe get some warships on the way.
Sending Force Z was a descicion I thought about quite some time and initially, it was planned to go for Soerabaja at first.


Edit:
Also, in his AAR, he said that hunting the allied CVs in the beginning is absolute legit in his book, as the allied player has every chance to get them out of harms way.

< Message edited by Historiker -- 4/30/2012 10:17:48 PM >

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 33
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 4/30/2012 10:16:03 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Teikoku Kaigun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Yes, he landed 170 AV in Sinkawang. The CVL was there for LR-CAP, the the CA seem to have been the surface protection. More than weak regarding 3 GB CL, 2BB/BC and 2 Dutch CL within one day steaming range...


And what units?
How many hexes out was the CVL?
Sorry i dont understand the last sentence? What date is this in the game?

---------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Singkawang (56,88)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 800 troops, 5 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 31

Defending force 5982 troops, 72 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 190



Assaulting units:
West Borneo KNIL Battalion
Singkawang Base Force

Defending units:
III./143rd Infantry Battalion
I./143rd Infantry Battalion
II./143rd Infantry Battalion
91st Naval Guard Unit
32nd Field AA Battalion
7th Field AF Construction Battalion
24th JAAF AF Bn
---------------------------------------------------------


There was a typo. Not "week" but "weak",
I think his forces were way to weak regarding the fact how many forces are in range to strike the taskforce within one day. My orders to intercept were given on turn two.

< Message edited by Historiker -- 4/30/2012 10:21:20 PM >

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Teikoku Kaigun)
Post #: 34
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 4/30/2012 10:30:15 PM   
Teikoku Kaigun

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 3/23/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Teikoku Kaigun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Yes, he landed 170 AV in Sinkawang. The CVL was there for LR-CAP, the the CA seem to have been the surface protection. More than weak regarding 3 GB CL, 2BB/BC and 2 Dutch CL within one day steaming range...


And what units?
How many hexes out was the CVL?
Sorry i dont understand the last sentence? What date is this in the game?

---------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Singkawang (56,88)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 800 troops, 5 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 31

Defending force 5982 troops, 72 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 190



Assaulting units:
West Borneo KNIL Battalion
Singkawang Base Force

Defending units:
III./143rd Infantry Battalion
I./143rd Infantry Battalion
II./143rd Infantry Battalion
91st Naval Guard Unit
32nd Field AA Battalion
7th Field AF Construction Battalion
24th JAAF AF Bn
---------------------------------------------------------


There was a typo. Not "week" but "weak",
I think his forces were way to weak regarding the fact how many forces are in range to strike the taskforce within one day.


Oh, now i understand, i have them also but this just confused me

And i agree, i suppose your hitting him again?
He must be unloading still, its a size 1 port? He has lots of troops and supply and he lost his surface cover and LRCAP. Or does he have Kuching? Shore bombard with the heavies after that and send some troops?
I shouldnt say these things, it hurts to see the Empire bleed, i will get bad karma.


(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 35
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 4/30/2012 10:34:21 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		Sure. I get stronger every day in this region. In the next two to three weeks, I will have two CVs and one CVL there, about 8 additional CLs, about 10 CAs and then, the british BBs will start coming...

Also, all planes in the DEI are set for Naval attack training and together with the carriers, he might get a few more surprises...

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Teikoku Kaigun)
Post #: 36
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 4/30/2012 10:50:26 PM   
Teikoku Kaigun

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 3/23/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Sure. I get stronger every day in this region. In the next two to three weeks, I will have two CVs and one CVL there, about 8 additional CLs, about 10 CAs and then, the british BBs will start coming...

Also, all planes in the DEI are set for Naval attack training and together with the carriers, he might get a few more surprises...


But to make him slow down you have to commit your forces now, he is in inbalance for a short period of time, days.

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 37
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 4/30/2012 10:53:16 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		Don't worry

I think I have 7CL, 1CA, 1BB, 1BC and 2AMCs in range. And, of course, I will use them

< Message edited by Historiker -- 4/30/2012 10:54:15 PM >

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Teikoku Kaigun)
Post #: 38
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 4/30/2012 11:17:54 PM   
Teikoku Kaigun

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 3/23/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Don't worry

I think I have 7CL, 1CA, 1BB, 1BC and 2AMCs in range. And, of course, I will use them


I dont know the allied sides troops from memory but you can have naval and land battle here if you have troops.
You have a good port in Pontian to keep them supplied and reinforced IF you can land in Singkavan to contest it first.
The Dutch subs are evil and he has to escort heavily everything he moves there to reinforce.
The loss of the CVL, CAs and DDs is major thing here.
I understood that he doesnt have anything else in Northern Bornea but Singkavan?
You have your B17s to pound "safely" airfields in Northern Borneo.
Ofcourse he will haves his way but here is a place for attrition of his naval and air assets with units you will loose anyways.
Maybe im missing something, im not an expert but i would hate be in this position as a Jap opponent.

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 39
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 4/30/2012 11:20:57 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		It is only turn two, so he has almost nothing, yet.
I wil plaster the field daily and don't forget, I have reliable US torpedoes!

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Teikoku Kaigun)
Post #: 40
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 4/30/2012 11:26:01 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

You might want to send your CVs to Canton Island first. There should be 8000 fuel there, and almost none at Pago Pago.

btw. I did. Thank you!

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Dan Nichols)
Post #: 41
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 4/30/2012 11:48:31 PM   
Teikoku Kaigun

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 3/23/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

It is only turn two, so he has almost nothing, yet.
I wil plaster the field daily and don't forget, I have reliable US torpedoes!


Well he has trouble then, i would move them all in. Your gamble has paid well and his hasnt.

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 42
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 5/1/2012 10:16:57 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

It is only turn two, so he has almost nothing, yet.
I wil plaster the field daily and don't forget, I have reliable US torpedoes!


Ouch! You got this rule too? That is one I would not agree to as Japan.

Big groups of subs operating near each other in the deep water areas of the DEI should do it. Plus about 20 hovering off of Tokyo by 5 hexes.

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 43
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 5/1/2012 2:42:57 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		Well, unfortunaltey the game has ended...

A little sad as I hoped to finally have an opponent who will test me to the maximum and had spent so much time for turn two as never before on an allied game

< Message edited by Historiker -- 5/1/2012 2:44:19 PM >

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 44
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 5/1/2012 2:47:35 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		So if there's someone here who keeps playing even if he looses KB and his BBs in the first months - or who can take care of them - he's invited to play me.

You've already found enough insights on how I play, so it'll be easier to predict

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 45
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 5/1/2012 2:53:12 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline 		Historiker invited me to give my side of the issue here as the game is scrubbed.

This is all my fault really, and Im sorry that this caused Historiker to spend alot of time on a game that ended so soon. The problem was that I agreed to start a new game relatively soon after I started the game against Canoe, and at the same time, using the same setup-file as with Canoe.

The problem is that I have been pretty detailed in my AAR, in some cases with detailed screenshots over my units and with arrows showing the direction they will travel the next turn etc. The movements around Kuching - Palembang for the first week of the war was such an area where I have been posting pretty detailed info about my plans and movements. Given that it just felt wrong to see Force Z and the entire ABDA-area naval units show up exactly in those locations on turn 1-2.

I realize this is horribly unfair to Historiker, because he reasonably has to be allowed to play in the best way he sees fit, and some people are very agressive with Force Z and ABDA naval forces in the first week of the war. But from my side of the screen, I see huge surface forces appearing in the exact hex where they can be seen in a screenshot in my AAR, complete with arrows of movement for the next turn.

This started a discussion between us, and we have agreed to end this game, because it is clear that we were expecting different things from the game. You know how it is, sometimes two players just are not "in synch" if you know what I mean. And those games tend to be filled with frustration and are really not fun for anyone. I had one of those games against Castor Troy back in the WITP-days, and that just wasnt fun for anyone of us I think.

But I want to apologise to Historiker for starting the game, and not changing my setup enough to avoid situations like the one that happened. Historiker just played a good first turn, so no shadow should fall on him.


_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Teikoku Kaigun)
Post #: 46
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 5/1/2012 3:01:18 PM   
adsoul64


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/23/2012
From: Milan Italy
Status: offline 		Too sad the game is over I was enjoying this AAR. But the two of you have been really able to finish this one in a gentleman style, something pretty unusual. Congratulations!

(in reply to Hortlund)
Post #: 47
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 5/1/2012 3:27:45 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Its a shame the game is over but I´m glad you ended it in a gentlemen fashion!

(in reply to adsoul64)
Post #: 48
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 5/1/2012 10:10:24 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		Sad it's over as well.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 49
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 5/2/2012 8:12:55 AM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		Hortlund has said it: It didn't seem we were able to play a game be both will equally enjoy.
He obvuously felt betrayed with me attacking his ships off Borneo, expecting me to use detailed knowledge from his game against Canoe.

I wasn't happy about the communication and the way he reacted when I emptied Pearl after turn two.

By ending the game now, we spare some frustration and anger in a game that was likely not to last into 1946 due to our differences anyways. I think we've done it right and thank Hortlund for the chance to play against him.

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 50
RE: Painfull Learning: Hortlund(J) vs. Historiker(A) - 5/2/2012 8:19:57 AM   
DOCUP


Posts: 3073
Joined: 7/7/2010
Status: offline 		This sucks.  I was enjoying this AAR.

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 51
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