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ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 3:11:07 PM

msudrala8

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I am playing allied campaign and not having a lot of luck taking back islands in the south pacific. What units are needed for the ideal attack amphibious tf? What are the minimums needed to have a successful mission?

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RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 4:25:44 PM

bush

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Much depends on when you are talking about. As the war progresses the Allies get many more toys that assist AMPH attacks tremendously. So where are you at currently?

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Post #: 2

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 4:33:31 PM

bradfordkay

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First off, no matter what year in the game it is you will want two to three times as many ships as are necessary to carry the number of troops desired. This will guarantee that they will all be unloaded in the first day so that your mandatory shock attack on the atoll will have a better chance of succeeding. I do hope that your troops are 100% prepared for the target.

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Post #: 3

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 4:34:26 PM

msudrala8

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April 1942.

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Post #: 4

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 4:38:27 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: msudrala8

April 1942.

Not a good time to do it unless you have overwhelming force and the Japanese garrison is weak and beat down.

In addition it is a very good idea to have a TF (LSTs) that is unloading supply at the same time. It seems that troops land first and then supply and it is not pretty to have your fine units shock attack an entrenched enemy with no supply....

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RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 5:04:27 PM

msudrala8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: msudrala8

April 1942.

Not a good time to do it unless you have overwhelming force and the Japanese garrison is weak and beat down.

In addition it is a very good idea to have a TF (LSTs) that is unloading supply at the same time. It seems that troops land first and then supply and it is not pretty to have your fine units shock attack an entrenched enemy with no supply....

Probably not good time but I'm impatient and it is killing to watch Japan capture-capture-capture-capture and not do anything.
Other than INF's and an HQ. What other units and ship types are necessary for a good mission?

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Post #: 6

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 5:06:57 PM

msudrala8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

First off, no matter what year in the game it is you will want two to three times as many ships as are necessary to carry the number of troops desired. This will guarantee that they will all be unloaded in the first day so that your mandatory shock attack on the atoll will have a better chance of succeeding. I do hope that your troops are 100% prepared for the target.

Thats good info about the extra ships, been using minimum (my bad). How do you know if troops are prepared?

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 7

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 5:33:16 PM

bradfordkay

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In the lower right of the unit information screen there is a "Prep for" button. It should be set to the target destination and will gain 1% per day - so it takes 100 days of training for that unit to be 100% prepped for the target.

And don't forget CRSutton's advice about the supply TF. Be sure to have one along with the troop TFs (but make it an amphibious TF as well, just load it with supplies only).

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Post #: 8

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 6:05:08 PM

msudrala8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

In the lower right of the unit information screen there is a "Prep for" button. It should be set to the target destination and will gain 1% per day - so it takes 100 days of training for that unit to be 100% prepped for the target.

And don't forget CRSutton's advice about the supply TF. Be sure to have one along with the troop TFs (but make it an amphibious TF as well, just load it with supplies only).

So if I spend 100 days preparing for target "a" and accomplish, will it take them another 100 days to prepare for target "b"? I don't know if I can be that patient!!

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Post #: 9

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 6:37:39 PM

Sardaukar

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You don't have to prepare all the way necessarily, except if you are attacking an atoll. With atolls, less than 100 is trouble, since atoll combat is bit different and more bloody.

You can imagine how my Amph invasions are in later war:

1. Bombardment TF
2. Surface Combat TF (vs. possible IJN surface raiders)
3. main Amph TF
4. supply TF
5. CVE Escort TF (CVEs do not suffer reduction in CAP in coastal hexes)
6. floating reserve TF (for example, if I am invading with division, I may have Regimental Combat Team and Tank Bn in it)
7. covering CV air combat TF
8. follow up TF with base forces & engineers

So, it can get quite complicated.

But I second some advice given. April 1942 is very bad time to start counter-invasions unless you really have to. You do not yet have specialized ships and if IJN main CV force visits you, your troops are in bottom.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 5/7/2012 6:38:03 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 6:50:19 PM

Gridley380

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quote:

ORIGINAL: msudrala8

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

In the lower right of the unit information screen there is a "Prep for" button. It should be set to the target destination and will gain 1% per day - so it takes 100 days of training for that unit to be 100% prepped for the target.

And don't forget CRSutton's advice about the supply TF. Be sure to have one along with the troop TFs (but make it an amphibious TF as well, just load it with supplies only).

So if I spend 100 days preparing for target "a" and accomplish, will it take them another 100 days to prepare for target "b"? I don't know if I can be that patient!!

Good news: overall you will accumulate points at a little better than 1 per day, so 90 days or so will usually get you to 100 prep.

Bad news: yes, any given unit can only prep for one target at a time.

Good news: as the Allies, by late 1942 you will have enough units that you can prep several waves at once for different objectives: say, 1st Marines for Tarawa, 2nd for Rabaul, 3rd for Guadalcanal, etc.. You can thus be launching an invasion every 30 days. In theory.

Bad news: you probably don't have enough ships to attack in division strength every 30 days.

For amphibious assaults, APA are superior to AP which are superior to xAP. Most of your troops will be on AP ships in 1942 and well into 1943. APD are good, but small and short ranged. You shouldn't use xAP for opposed amphibious assaults, but they are useful for ferrying troops around between friendly bases and for bringing in follow-on echelons (SeaBees, aviation support, etc.).

Put a few 'heavy' ships in your amphibious TFs - old BBs, CAs, etc. These will help suppress coast defense guns at the target.

In addition to INF, you should bring along a bunch of ENG units - Marine Pioneer and Army Combat Engineer units, for example, will help unload your troops and destroy fortifications. The USMC also has some ART and ARM units which I tend to permanently mate with the division of the same number - so 1st USMC Tank Battalion goes wherever the 1st Marine Division goes.

Use the balance of your old BBs to bombard objectives just before the troops go ashore.

Hope some of that helps.

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Post #: 11

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 8:45:22 PM

inqistor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: msudrala8

I am playing allied campaign and not having a lot of luck taking back islands in the south pacific. What units are needed for the ideal attack amphibious tf? What are the minimums needed to have a successful mission?

The better prepared your units, the less damage they take during invasion (although ship type also have influence).

But your best bet, is current US tactic - first bombard the target into stoneage (first from air, then send bombarding TFs).

quote:

Probably not good time but I'm impatient and it is killing to watch Japan capture-capture-capture-capture and not do anything.

Now it is a time for partisan strikes.
Japan invade without heavy support? Send there your ships, and sink loaded transport.
Japan put lots of planes on island/coast? Bombard base with heavy ships.
You see transport convoy of supply/fuel? Sink it with your Carriers.

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Post #: 12

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 9:17:19 PM

Canoerebel

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As always, there are many caveats to every rule stated here.

As a general rule, the Allies can only rarely engage in contested invasions in the first half of 1942. Patience is a virtue and also a historical reality. So get some. :)

There are times when you can invade with low prep including atolls. You may have to bring overwhelming force, but as long as you know what you're doing, it can be done.

You won't get the sexy, amazing landing ships until 1943. APA, AKA and LST will amaze you at their speed compared to using xAK and xAP. The AP are good, but be careful with them. Many of them convert to APA in March 1943, so don't lose them. Show some patience. Save them for when they become truly powerful.

For the Allies in 1942, contested invasions are generally a waste of time and effort (at least for atolls; sometimes you can invade non-atoll bases in a big way and do some good stuff). For the Allies in '42 it's all about stealth and speed and surgical strikes and patience. The weighted blows usually come later.

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Post #: 13

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 11:00:42 PM

jeffk3510

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I would protect your fleet from enemy bombers with CAP.. as seen below.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by jeffk3510 -- 5/7/2012 11:02:03 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/7/2012 11:01:19 PM

jeffk3510

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...and then.. get them ashore!!

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 15

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/8/2012 3:19:32 PM

msudrala8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

quote:

ORIGINAL: msudrala8

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

In the lower right of the unit information screen there is a "Prep for" button. It should be set to the target destination and will gain 1% per day - so it takes 100 days of training for that unit to be 100% prepped for the target.

And don't forget CRSutton's advice about the supply TF. Be sure to have one along with the troop TFs (but make it an amphibious TF as well, just load it with supplies only).

So if I spend 100 days preparing for target "a" and accomplish, will it take them another 100 days to prepare for target "b"? I don't know if I can be that patient!!

Good news: overall you will accumulate points at a little better than 1 per day, so 90 days or so will usually get you to 100 prep.

Bad news: yes, any given unit can only prep for one target at a time.

Good news: as the Allies, by late 1942 you will have enough units that you can prep several waves at once for different objectives: say, 1st Marines for Tarawa, 2nd for Rabaul, 3rd for Guadalcanal, etc.. You can thus be launching an invasion every 30 days. In theory.

Bad news: you probably don't have enough ships to attack in division strength every 30 days.

For amphibious assaults, APA are superior to AP which are superior to xAP. Most of your troops will be on AP ships in 1942 and well into 1943. APD are good, but small and short ranged. You shouldn't use xAP for opposed amphibious assaults, but they are useful for ferrying troops around between friendly bases and for bringing in follow-on echelons (SeaBees, aviation support, etc.).

Put a few 'heavy' ships in your amphibious TFs - old BBs, CAs, etc. These will help suppress coast defense guns at the target.

In addition to INF, you should bring along a bunch of ENG units - Marine Pioneer and Army Combat Engineer units, for example, will help unload your troops and destroy fortifications. The USMC also has some ART and ARM units which I tend to permanently mate with the division of the same number - so 1st USMC Tank Battalion goes wherever the 1st Marine Division goes.

Use the balance of your old BBs to bombard objectives just before the troops go ashore.

Hope some of that helps.

Thank you, this is great info., exactly what I needed. Now I have some fragmented land units left over from assaults. Can these be disbanded and merged with other units?

(in reply to Gridley380)

Post #: 16

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/8/2012 3:28:42 PM

msudrala8

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[/quote]
You see transport convoy of supply/fuel? Sink it with your Carriers.
[/quote]
Started doing some of this. Would like to expand out with US TF carriers and Surface combat TF's. Can these be rearmed and sorties rearmed from all allied bases?

(in reply to inqistor)

Post #: 17

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/8/2012 3:34:40 PM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: msudrala8
Probably not good time but I'm impatient and it is killing to watch Japan capture-capture-capture-capture and not do anything.
Other than INF's and an HQ. What other units and ship types are necessary for a good mission?

Is KB still afloat and active? If so you are asking to get your teeth kicked in. It IS possible to mount some counterstrikes this early, but only when you know KB isn't around, and the Japs are weak on the target. How is your scouting?

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Post #: 18

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/8/2012 3:36:21 PM

msudrala8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

As always, there are many caveats to every rule stated here.

As a general rule, the Allies can only rarely engage in contested invasions in the first half of 1942.� Patience is a virtue and also a historical reality.� So get some.� :)

There are times when you can invade with low prep including atolls.� You may have to bring overwhelming force, but as long as you know what you're doing, it can be done.

You won't get the sexy, amazing landing ships until 1943.� APA, AKA and LST will amaze you at their speed compared to using xAK and xAP.� The AP are good, but be careful with them.� Many of them convert to APA in March 1943, so don't lose them.� Show some patience.� Save them for when they become truly powerful.

For the Allies in 1942, contested invasions are generally a waste of time and effort (at least for atolls; sometimes you can invade non-atoll bases in a big way and do some good stuff).� For the Allies in '42 it's all about stealth and speed and surgical strikes and patience.� The weighted blows usually come later.

I will practice patience. I have been a war gamer since the Apple II era (just dated myself). Used to just diving into the heat of the battle. I hope I have not damaged myself too early in the game. Don't really want to start over again (on 3rd time), too many hours invested!

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 19

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/8/2012 4:03:55 PM

bradfordkay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: msudrala8

You see transport convoy of supply/fuel? Sink it with your Carriers.

Started doing some of this. Would like to expand out with US TF carriers and Surface combat TF's. Can these be rearmed and sorties rearmed from all allied bases?

An emphatic NO! You should review the rules and charts in the manual at 20.1.2.2 which tells you what size port is required for each specific weapon. As you will see from the chart, adding naval support at a port can help significantly.

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Post #: 20

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/8/2012 4:47:00 PM

msudrala8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

quote:

ORIGINAL: msudrala8

You see transport convoy of supply/fuel? Sink it with your Carriers.

Started doing some of this. Would like to expand out with US TF carriers and Surface combat TF's. Can these be rearmed and sorties rearmed from all allied bases?

An emphatic NO! You should review the rules and charts in the manual at 20.1.2.2 which tells you what size port is required for each specific weapon. As you will see from the chart, adding naval support at a port can help significantly.

Sorry, I should have worded my question better. I know about the base size requirements and having the naval support. My question was. Can British or Australia ports and naval support rearm U.S. ships?
Also, I am a little confused as to whether the naval support has to just be there, docked or disbanded to rearm?

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Post #: 21

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/8/2012 4:51:28 PM

msudrala8

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quote:

Is KB still afloat and active? If so you are asking to get your teeth kicked in. It IS possible to mount some counterstrikes this early, but only when you know KB isn't around, and the Japs are weak on the target. How is your scouting?

I hope this isn't a dumb question. What is KB?

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Post #: 22

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/8/2012 4:58:04 PM

Alfred

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1. KB is Kido Butai. The Japanese carriers.

2. Supply is supply. It does not recognise different nationalities.

3. Naval support is found only on some land units.

Alfred

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Post #: 23

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/8/2012 6:10:13 PM

jmalter

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invading an atoll is a different animal from an invading an ordinary base - the atoll has v. small stacking limit, & invading troops will auto-shock attack immediately in the turn it unloads. here are some tips that are good for all invasions, the ones marked -*- apply only to atoll assaults.

- during load-out, use as many amph-type ships as possible (APA/AKA/LST) for your combat units, to maximize the amount of supply they load. if you need add'l supply, create a separate AmphTF, load supply, & merge it w/ your main AmphTF on the way to the target. if any of the supply-column ships load fuel, keep them in a separate AmphTF (or merge them w/ a 3rd AmphTF that carries your post-victory garrison forces). Fuel-carrying transports burn really well if they get tagged by coastal gunfire. don't trust the transport load screen, it doesn't adjust for the 20% load-reduction that simulates combat-loading for the AmphTF. there's nothing more annoying than being well on your way, then discovering that many of your LCUs have left support elements behind.

- AmphTF size limit is 100 ships. Include combatants for gunfire support - anything w/ 5" guns or better, they magnet coastal gunfire & shoot back to suppress it. They'll use all their gun ammo, so be prepared to swap them w/ fresh combatants from your 2nd-wave AmphTF. They'll still have AA & ASW ammo.

- if available, use a ForceHQ - give it your manliest leader & load it to a separate AmphTF consisting of 1 AGC, merge it to your main AmphTF while en route. this combo improves unloading, & the leader will influence land combat while still embarked.

- set the AmphTF(s) destination to 'remain on station' one hex down-threat from the target hex. this hex is your Amph Ops Area (AOA) for staging your attack. when the AmphTF gets there, set it to remain on station, full speed and sail to the target hex. this will maximize the time your ships have available to unload in the subsequent night turn.

- manage your TFs carefully for day 2 - leave any hopeless cripples in the unloading TF as gunfire magnets, swap out damaged/empty transports & ammo-expended combatants w/ ships from the 2nd wave in the AOA. your ForceHQ/AGC combo won't unload until all other ships in the TF are empty, usually you can arrange things so that it never actually has to unload.

-*- assuming your atoll invasion didn't get waxed on turn 1, continue the assault by unloading large amounts of supply, most of which will disappear b/c of overstacking. as soon as you've wiped out the defenders, start re-loading the LCUs (use load troops only), else they'll start to disrupt due to overstacking. an atoll can hold 6,000 troops, you can exceed this by about 10% w/o taking a large hit, but more than that will damage your units.

- when withdrawing your ships, especially damaged ones, continue to sail in convoy. create an EscortTF for cripples, set it to cruise speed to minimize add'l damage as they head home.

- Sardaukar gave good tips above, i'd add a minesweeperTF to the list. it must go in first! it'll likely get creamed by CD guns, but that's the price of doing business.

hth

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Post #: 24

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/9/2012 7:21:10 PM

dr.hal

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In early '42 you only have one amphib HQ which is on the west coast, don't loose it. It will play a large role later on in the game. Hal

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Post #: 25

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/12/2012 10:11:27 AM

Encircled

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Great tips here, thanks

Going to have to do some tweaking of my first amphib assault

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Post #: 26

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/14/2012 6:53:14 PM

Gridley380

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quote:

Now I have some fragmented land units left over from assaults. Can these be disbanded and merged with other units?

Didn't see this answered - multiple fragments from a single unit will auto-merge if they are in the same hex when the turn executes. You see a status message, even if it is just fragments from different ships unloading at a friendly port.

You can only 'merge' ground units manually if they are pre-set components of a larger unit at game start - so you create 1st Marine Division by getting all its components (three Marine regiments) in one place, in the same op mode, with the same HQ, and hitting the "rebuild unit" button that will appear. In general you should do this - not only do larger units seem to fight better, but the larger unit often has more devices in its TOE than the combination of its components.

You can only actually disband a ground unit at a national capital (its own?), and from my experience you can only do so if it doesn't have a withdrawal date.

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Post #: 27

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/14/2012 8:10:03 PM

derhexer

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When forming an amphibious TF should we include LSTs, LCIs, etc. along with the APAs that hold the troops? I had read that the computer will spread troops out among the APAs, LSTs, etc. and some of those troops will arrive disorganized and seasick.

I've created seperate TFs of LSTs, LCIs, etc. and had them follow the APAs carrying the troops, then merge them the day before the invasion.

Its extra work to manage all these TFs.

Comments?

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Post #: 28

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/14/2012 9:04:56 PM

KenchiSulla

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Derhexer, I guess you would want to have about twice the load capacity in APA/LSI(L)s to land your combat troops. I would include a few AKAs with just supplies before you hit the beaches.

Start them out as a separate taskforce to just load supplies (no troops) and merge them into the assault TF after fully loaded... All this well help you land most of the combat troops and enough supplies on the first day. Critical for invading Atolls!!!

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Post #: 29

RE: ideal amphibious tf? - 5/14/2012 9:40:33 PM

jmalter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled
Going to have to do some tweaking of my first amphib assault

IMO phib assaults are really the meat of this game! esp. when taking place across strategic distances. as the game continues, the Allies can assemble massive power & get all kinds of special toys, but their strength can be dissipated if the TF coordination is poor, bombing & planning preparation is inadequate, & at-start resources haven't been husbanded. (for instance, several AP ships that are available early in the game can eventually upgrade to APAs, you'll feel blue if some of these get tagged early by IJN subs or raiders.)

planning, load-out, & execution will test all your skills & req all of your lessons-learned from gameplay & gleanings from the forums. i've learned so much here, that i'm always glad to pass info along.

(in reply to Encircled)

Post #: 30