Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dark_Star


The lost of either capital was a major impact for both sides, more than +5

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dark_Star


The lost of either capital was a major impact for both sides, more than +5

Based on what?

The Sov gov't wasn't there.

If the city was going to fall, Stalin and Co would of left.

The Sovs were going to fight on.

Hitler stated before the invasion that Moscow wasn't important.

He wasn't interested until his original hope of destroying the Red Army, causing the collapse of the regime, proved a chimera.

The dedicated Marxists who controlled Soviet Russia beleived that the basis of all power lay in the control of the means of production. Not whether a capital, especially one that isn't nailed down, falls or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kg_1007


Those "dedicated Marxists", for the record, were ready to ask the Bulgarians to intercede with the Germans to come to terms, before the Bulgarians told them just to hold out because their Axis allies would not be able to win in the long haul. 1941 and summer of 1942, things were very definitely hanging in the balance, it was not until late 1942 that they began to think they would really win(the Soviets, I mean). This faltering of faith in those dedicated Marxists was caused by the sledgehammer blows in the war's first days, and increased by the German arrival outside of Moscow, and likely would have ended as total disruption, had Sorge not informed the Soviets that the Japanese had decided not to attack the USSR, and instead to attack into the Pacific, which thus released fresh Siberian divisions hitherto guarding against an expected Japanese attack, and released them on the Germans fighting for Moscow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: kg_1007


Those "dedicated Marxists", for the record, were ready to ask the Bulgarians to intercede with the Germans to come to terms, before the Bulgarians told them just to hold out because their Axis allies would not be able to win in the long haul. 1941 and summer of 1942, things were very definitely hanging in the balance, it was not until late 1942 that they began to think they would really win(the Soviets, I mean). This faltering of faith in those dedicated Marxists was caused by the sledgehammer blows in the war's first days, and increased by the German arrival outside of Moscow, and likely would have ended as total disruption, had Sorge not informed the Soviets that the Japanese had decided not to attack the USSR, and instead to attack into the Pacific, which thus released fresh Siberian divisions hitherto guarding against an expected Japanese attack, and released them on the Germans fighting for Moscow.

Please cite your source of this information as it directly contradicts how Stalin assessed the military situation by the fall of 1941. BTW, the divisions from the Eastern Military Districts started transferring west in September long before the Germans were anywhere near Moscow. The notion that the Siberians showed up in the nick of time to save Moscow is a myth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kg_1007

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: kg_1007


Those "dedicated Marxists", for the record, were ready to ask the Bulgarians to intercede with the Germans to come to terms, before the Bulgarians told them just to hold out because their Axis allies would not be able to win in the long haul. 1941 and summer of 1942, things were very definitely hanging in the balance, it was not until late 1942 that they began to think they would really win(the Soviets, I mean). This faltering of faith in those dedicated Marxists was caused by the sledgehammer blows in the war's first days, and increased by the German arrival outside of Moscow, and likely would have ended as total disruption, had Sorge not informed the Soviets that the Japanese had decided not to attack the USSR, and instead to attack into the Pacific, which thus released fresh Siberian divisions hitherto guarding against an expected Japanese attack, and released them on the Germans fighting for Moscow.

Please cite your source of this information as it directly contradicts how Stalin assessed the military situation by the fall of 1941. BTW, the divisions from the Eastern Military Districts started transferring west in September long before the Germans were anywhere near Moscow. The notion that the Siberians showed up in the nick of time to save Moscow is a myth.

Actually look up Sorge, my friend. The entire reason he is regarded as a hero in Russia still, is because his intelligence from Japan re: their decision not to attack Russia, allowed those Soviet divisions to be reassigned. Try reading also people such as Beevor, etc who have researched a great deal (also the Bulgarian question, he is one of many sources on that).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dark_Star

Ok, were are game suggestions listed ??

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: kg_1007


Those "dedicated Marxists", for the record, were ready to ask the Bulgarians to intercede with the Germans to come to terms, before the Bulgarians told them just to hold out because their Axis allies would not be able to win in the long haul. 1941 and summer of 1942, things were very definitely hanging in the balance, it was not until late 1942 that they began to think they would really win(the Soviets, I mean). This faltering of faith in those dedicated Marxists was caused by the sledgehammer blows in the war's first days, and increased by the German arrival outside of Moscow, and likely would have ended as total disruption, had Sorge not informed the Soviets that the Japanese had decided not to attack the USSR, and instead to attack into the Pacific, which thus released fresh Siberian divisions hitherto guarding against an expected Japanese attack, and released them on the Germans fighting for Moscow.

Please cite your source of this information as it directly contradicts how Stalin assessed the military situation by the fall of 1941. BTW, the divisions from the Eastern Military Districts started transferring west in September long before the Germans were anywhere near Moscow. The notion that the Siberians showed up in the nick of time to save Moscow is a myth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rvseydlitz

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: kg_1007


Those "dedicated Marxists", for the record, were ready to ask the Bulgarians to intercede with the Germans to come to terms, before the Bulgarians told them just to hold out because their Axis allies would not be able to win in the long haul. 1941 and summer of 1942, things were very definitely hanging in the balance, it was not until late 1942 that they began to think they would really win(the Soviets, I mean). This faltering of faith in those dedicated Marxists was caused by the sledgehammer blows in the war's first days, and increased by the German arrival outside of Moscow, and likely would have ended as total disruption, had Sorge not informed the Soviets that the Japanese had decided not to attack the USSR, and instead to attack into the Pacific, which thus released fresh Siberian divisions hitherto guarding against an expected Japanese attack, and released them on the Germans fighting for Moscow.

Please cite your source of this information as it directly contradicts how Stalin assessed the military situation by the fall of 1941. BTW, the divisions from the Eastern Military Districts started transferring west in September long before the Germans were anywhere near Moscow. The notion that the Siberians showed up in the nick of time to save Moscow is a myth.

If indeed it was a myth, it is one that is missed by most well regarded historians as I referenced above. Also, if those divisions began transferring in September, that somehow was missed by pretty much everyone on the planet except for you, so you must certainly have the mother of all sources at your disposal, perhaps you should post references as you asked others to do?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rvseydlitz

Your information goes contrary to 99% of historians..perhaps you are correct, but that would be an amazing feat for "mythbusters" to gain knowledge that most people who studied, fought, or otherwise were involved in this war, failed to gain.
The Seydlitz in my name is actually my last name, and I had a relative who fought in this war, and was of some note, so excuse me if I fail to be impressed by an American who is, as most of the posters here, famous for being a Soviet apologist (Glantz)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Like an American would know more about a war fought by Germans and Russians. Do you realize that most of those formations were mere shells?

I honestly think there is some kind of mass misinformation campaign going on around here about the German capacity to win the war. Why don't you read some material written by people who actually fought that war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rvseydlitz

Your information goes contrary to 99% of historians..perhaps you are correct, but that would be an amazing feat for "mythbusters" to gain knowledge that most people who studied, fought, or otherwise were involved in this war, failed to gain.
The Seydlitz in my name is actually my last name, and I had a relative who fought in this war, and was of some note, so excuse me if I fail to be impressed by an American who is, as most of the posters here, famous for being a Soviet apologist (Glantz)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

quote:

ORIGINAL: rvseydlitz

Your information goes contrary to 99% of historians..perhaps you are correct, but that would be an amazing feat for "mythbusters" to gain knowledge that most people who studied, fought, or otherwise were involved in this war, failed to gain.
The Seydlitz in my name is actually my last name, and I had a relative who fought in this war, and was of some note, so excuse me if I fail to be impressed by an American who is, as most of the posters here, famous for being a Soviet apologist (Glantz)

Actually if 99 post-war German or German-derived references said one thing and Glantz said another, I would go with Glantz. Any history on this subject written before 1991 is suspect due to lack of access to Soviet archives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

I could recommend several authors but why not just go with the best: David Glantz at the link below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Glantz

You'll find several books on the War in the East in general and Barbarossa in particular. I also have a pdf of an article written by him on the state of the Red Army in June, 1941 and its mobilization. One look at the sheer number of formations the Russians put into the field in the summer and fall of 1941 and you will realize how ludicously small the Siberian divisions were to the total strength of the Red Army. If you are interested send me your email address and I will send it to you.

Jim Wirth

jawirth@comcast.net

quote:

ORIGINAL: kg_1007

Wow..I did not mean for anything I SAID to have led to this argument, so I apologize to all if that was the case.
rvseydlitz is correct in his assessment of some of the sources..I would definitely call Beevor a much better historian that a vague"mythbusters" and even at the US Military Academy at West Point (hardly an Axis sympathizing organization) WE learned from many quite excellent professors of history, just how close the war came to going the other way, even with the Allied advantage of reading the command signals, etc.
Having said that, I do apologize as I said if my somewhat flip remarks led to this sudden skirmish, for want of a better term. Aurelius, in particular, my reply to you was probably very flip, I did not mean that to be as bad as it sounded.