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"Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/9/2012 11:46:47 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I am starting a new PBEM, and asked my opopnent what are acceptable first-day landings and what are not. But I thought I would open up to the gallery as well.

It's very possible to go deep into the DEI, but IMO, you should only be able to land at the "edges". It would have been impossible for the Japanese to sail a major invasion fleet past Dutch air search D-1 or D-2 without raising some serious red flags, more than were raised already by the RAF Catalina shot-down over the Gulf of Siam D-1.

Anyway, if Khota Bharu is realistic, then are the following OK:

Mersing
Kuantan
Miri
Kuching
Sinkawang
Jesselton
Lingayen
Vigan
Davao
Ternate
Manado
Sorong

Seems like those should be the limit; anything deeper is too....deep.

Thoughts?

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/9/2012 11:49:38 PM   
Dan Nichols


Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
Status: offline 		My vote would be none of them on turn 1.

I would add Guam though.

< Message edited by Dan Nichols -- 5/9/2012 11:56:13 PM >

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 12:49:49 AM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline 		On Dec 7, I limit myself (even in games against the AI) to only landing at Kota Bharu, Kuantan and Batan Island. Batan Island is close enough to Formosa, so any invasion fleet heading there wouldn't have caused much suspicion. The Kota Bharu and Kuantan landing forces could be explained away as heading toward Thai or Vietnamese bases. Anything else would have been likely to tip the whole thing off to the Allies. I also allow myself to paradrop onto bases in N. Luzon (Laoag, Vigan or Aparri). On Dec 8, anything on "the edge" would be fair game for additional landings and anything in range would be okay for paradrops.

< Message edited by Icedawg -- 5/10/2012 12:50:34 AM >

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 1:34:26 AM   
fodder


Posts: 2160
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Daytona Beach
Status: offline 		I would also add Guam to your list.

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 1:56:07 AM   
armin


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Status: offline 		All are ok becouse from 7th december you have convoys heading in those directions. Except Manado and Ternate have no speed convoy just a regular one. Mersing should be done only with KB in area.

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 2:20:51 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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hey fodder that is a cool picture of nisshin..

but wouldn't you prefer "mogami cruiser fanboy?"

Nisshin and the 3 others belong in the yards being turned into CVLs




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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 2:21:24 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am starting a new PBEM, and asked my opopnent what are acceptable first-day landings and what are not. But I thought I would open up to the gallery as well.

It's very possible to go deep into the DEI, but IMO, you should only be able to land at the "edges". It would have been impossible for the Japanese to sail a major invasion fleet past Dutch air search D-1 or D-2 without raising some serious red flags, more than were raised already by the RAF Catalina shot-down over the Gulf of Siam D-1.

Anyway, if Khota Bharu is realistic, then are the following OK:

Mersing
Kuantan
Miri
Kuching
Sinkawang
Jesselton
Lingayen
Vigan
Davao
Ternate
Manado
Sorong

Seems like those should be the limit; anything deeper is too....deep.

Thoughts?

Mersing is pushing it. Any Luzon or N. PI landings are fair game. Davao and Mindanao are right out. Anything south of there is out too, including Guam, IMO.

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 2:23:40 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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by the way yes -
you can land wherever you have Kido Butai in support

don't land in mersing unless you hit singapore instead of pearl with KB
don't land in hawaii unless you hit pearl with KB


but Dec 8 would be pretty funny if you did that

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 2:27:41 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
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From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Seems to me Sorong might be kosher on day 2. Lets say they left Palau before the Pearl Harbor attack. Even if they were spotted would the presence of shipping moving SW from Palau before the Pearl Harbor attack automatically signal hostilities?

Ditto the Eastern portions of Luzon or Mindanao?

In fairness they would have to have a surface escort (or CVL's) that could reasonably repulse Allied cruisers in the area.

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 3:41:02 AM   
Q-Ball


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Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I think Chickenboy is about right; I figured Mindanao, and anything around there, is probably out. But N. Coast of Borneo is OK, as well as E Malaya, minus Mersing.

Guam is hard to get to with a turn-1 landing, and at any rate.....what's the rush on Guam?

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 4:32:04 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: armin

All are ok becouse from 7th december you have convoys heading in those directions. Except Manado and Ternate have no speed convoy just a regular one. Mersing should be done only with KB in area.




The question was legitimate landings ON December 7th..., and the answer is "None of the Above".

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 9:18:11 AM   
Olorin


Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/22/2008
From: Greece
Status: offline 		I have a couple of rules for the first turn I'd like to apply in my pbem games, assuming surprise is on. Briefly:

If KB attacks PH, then landing on Guam, the Aleutians, the Gilberts and Hawaii is ok.
In Malaya, only Kota Bharu and Kuantan are ok. Mersing only by very fast TFs.
In Luzon, everything north of Clark Field, provided the amphibious TF can normally make 8 hexes per turn.
Borneo is off limits.
Eastern DEI and Mindanao are off limits.
New Guinea and New Britain are off limits.


< Message edited by Olorin -- 5/10/2012 9:19:57 AM >

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 10:25:51 PM   
KenchiSulla


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quote:

Sinkawang


It is to close to Singapore.. Japanese had no business there. Also look at the gameplay consequence of landing at Sinkawang with baseforce and engineers. Build it up into a decent airbase as soon as possible and you have a torpedo base reaching into the interior lines of ABDA. The allies would have had a chance to respond in life.. They should get a chance in game!

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 10:46:29 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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Joined: 2/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

I have a couple of rules for the first turn I'd like to apply in my pbem games, assuming surprise is on. Briefly:

If KB attacks PH, then landing on Guam, the Aleutians, the Gilberts and Hawaii is ok.


HAWAII? How do you figure that? It's one thing for a well trained professional naval TF to sneak across the North Pacific in Decermber, quite another for a lumbering herd of merchantmen. They would have had to travel much farther South to make any speed at all (and we're talking 6-8 knots) on the trip..., and that would take them into civilian shipping lanes and in range of air search from Midway. The rest are legitimate (though landing in the Aleutians in December is certainly "iffy"), but Hawaii is a pipedream.

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 11:36:36 PM   
Olorin


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Joined: 4/22/2008
From: Greece
Status: offline 		On second thought, you are correct, there is no way slow transports can achieve surprise in Hawaii.

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/10/2012 11:42:05 PM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 921
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Take CB's advice. After turn 1, go crazy~!

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Japan AC wire chart here
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2769286&mpage=1&key=?

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Post #: 16
RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 12:57:29 AM   
Phanatikk


Posts: 162
Joined: 10/22/2009
From: Nashville
Status: offline 		If you are going to attack PH, I'd say select "Historical" and "let slip the dogs of war." Clean up the poor Japanese planning afterwards.

I've run the Historical turn several times, and the damage done seems far greater than even tweaking the PH attack on non-Historical.

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Post #: 17
RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 3:05:54 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		This is good feedback. There is a wide range of opinions here. When I posted I didn't think all those spots were OK, but wanted it to be open-ended.

My personal opinion is this:

Malaya: Khota and Kuantan only. Not Mersing.
Borneo: I think North Coast is OK from Kuching through Brunei.
Phillipines: North of Clark seems to be a consensus
Mindanao: Off Limits

I don't think you can get an invasion TF to the Aleutians or Hawaii. The nearest Fast TFs with troops loaded are at Palau and Takao; way too far

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 3:47:37 AM   
Dan Nichols


Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
Status: offline 		If someone wondered, you can get to the Aleutians on turn 1:

A little scary







Attachment (1)

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 3:47:57 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Joined: 2/19/2008
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18 knot tankers are the same as 18 knot transports ..

could land the 18 knot transports on the evening of Dec 7 or

you could land a small SNLF with 29kt APDs


landing at hawaii would have been reckless ..
.. but the japanese thought about doing it

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 11:45:21 AM   
Kereguelen


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Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: armin

All are ok becouse from 7th december you have convoys heading in those directions. Except Manado and Ternate have no speed convoy just a regular one. Mersing should be done only with KB in area.


quote:

Ternat


Ternate and Manado invasion convoys were added for the convenience of the AI, historically the Japanese did land there in January 1942 (Manado on January 11th, 1942).

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 1:40:15 PM   
Olorin


Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/22/2008
From: Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

If someone wondered, you can get to the Aleutians on turn 1:

A little scary








Yup, it can be done. Just change the magic move TF at Ominato to amphibious, merge APs from the port, load troops (but no supplies or fuel) and send them to Amchitka or Adak. They can reach it in turn 1.

< Message edited by Olorin -- 5/11/2012 1:42:29 PM >

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 1:55:46 PM   
Dan Nichols


Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
Status: offline 		This TF started in Samah.

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 2:00:40 PM   
Olorin


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From: Greece
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In my tests, the TF destined to Bataan Isl. couldn't make it all the way to the Aleutians, so I am surprised that a TF starting in Hainan made the trip.

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 3:23:17 PM   
Iridium


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Mersing is pushing it. Any Luzon or N. PI landings are fair game. Davao and Mindanao are right out. Anything south of there is out too, including Guam, IMO.


Really? Pretty sure on D1 Davao was raided by a DD Flotilla with cover from Mini-KB, all based out of Palau. Unfortunately for Japan, there was little to target there as most had moved away by then. Why is it so far fetched for them to launch a small landing at Davao since it's just a bit of an escalation from what happened in real life?

EDIT: I've confirmed this from Cpt. Hara's book, he mentions little response to their attacks and other than a run in with a sub of unknown origins, Dec. 7th went pretty smoothly but with little to show for it.

< Message edited by Iridium -- 5/11/2012 3:35:40 PM >

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 3:47:46 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		My opinion would be for scenario 1---->

IMO anything on the outside defensive perimeter in the Phillipines is fair game. North coast of Borneo from Kuching heading east as well . I'm with the same that view south of Khota on the first turn in Malaya and DEI should be off limits.

Here's my resoning for the Phillipines and north coast of Borneo or even Guam.. What's the time differnce from Pearl to Phillipines 8 hours? I believe if the Japanese Empire wanted to attack anything on the outside perimeter  of British North Borneo or the Philipines there was little to nothing that could have been done about it.  Since the lynchpin of everything --> the Pearl Harbor operation happened well in advance there was no fear of any moves tipping off an attack at Pearl.

Moving forward--- both sides benefit from hindsight there is no reason to handcuff Japan as once the Allies get the initiative Japan will get brutalized in part because of the the pace of operations (both sides benefit from), the ability this game provides to supply and knowledge both players have of the other sides forces  among others.

For scenario 2 ----> AARs where  you'll see Marines in Burma, the DEI, Indians, British, ANZAC in Japan , if the Allied comander isn't going to play with historical restraint any attack should be fair game.




< Message edited by SuluSea -- 5/11/2012 3:53:44 PM >

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 3:52:29 PM   
Canoerebel


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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
For scenario 2 AARs where  you'll see Marines in Burma, the DEI, Indians, British, ANZAC in Japan , if the Allied comander isn't going to play with historical restraint any attack should be fair game.


This made me smile. Japan is more powerful in Scenario Two, will (usually) go further and do wildly improbable things [which is fun!] but that Allies are in the wrong for committing AnZac troops to Japan?

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 3:52:40 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

My opinion would be for scenario 1---->

IMO anything on the outside defensive perimeter in the Phillipines is fair game. North coast of Borneo from Kuching heading east as well . I'm with the same that view south of Khota on the first turn in Malaya and DEI should be off limits.

Here's my resoning for the Phillipines and north coast of Borneo or even Guam.. What's the time differnce from Pearl to Phillipines 8 hours? I believe if the Japanese Empire wanted to attack anything on the outside perimeter  of British North Borneo or the Philipines there was little to nothing that could have been done about it.  Since the lynchpin of everything --> the Pearl Harbor operation happened well in advance there was no fear of any moves tipping off an attack at Pearl.

Moving forward--- both sides benefit from hindsight there is no reason to handcuff Japan as once the Allies get the initiative Japan will get brutalized in part because of the the pace of operations (both sides benefit from), the ability this game provides to supply and knowledge both players have of the other sides forces  among others.

For scenario 2 AARs where I you'll see Marines in Burma, the DEI, Indians, British, ANZAC in Japan , if the Allied comander isn't going to play with historical restraint any attack should be fair game.



I tend to agree with you Sulu Sea. A convoy in the South China Sea heading south from Saigon would have raised significant alarms, but the Allies were already on high alert, as they spotted a ton of shipping in the Gulf of Siam on D-1. The only possible "what if" is what if Force Z had decided to sail for Brunei when convoys were spotted in South China Sea? Were they ready to do that even on D-1? Allies also didn't have much recon over S. China Sea as opposed to Gulf of Siam, so it's possible that shipping would not be spotted. RAF was keeping an eye on Gulf of Siam, for sure.

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 4:01:01 PM   
SuluSea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
For scenario 2 AARs where  you'll see Marines in Burma, the DEI, Indians, British, ANZAC in Japan , if the Allied comander isn't going to play with historical restraint any attack should be fair game.


This made me smile. Japan is more powerful in Scenario Two, will (usually) go further and do wildly improbable things [which is fun!] but that Allies are in the wrong for committing AnZac troops to Japan?


Hi Canoe, it's just one persons opinion. I wouldn't call it wrong at all. I view it as once the tide turned and Japan's defeat was evident the US wasn't going to let it's Allies get a piece of post war Japan. Maybe I'm wrong, uninformed I'd be willing to listen to otherwise and I'm open to a change of opinion.

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RE: "Kosher" First-Day Landings - 5/11/2012 4:10:19 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		So you dont think the US would have let their allies help them out in securing the Japanese mainland? Why on earth would they reject help? An attack on the Japanese mainland would have been terribly bloody...

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 5/11/2012 4:11:38 PM >

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Post #: 30
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