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The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 9:23:53 AM   
ULTIMO


Posts: 51
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: ITALY
Status: offline 		THE HOUSE of CHEATING: how to become invincible even without knowing how to play

The first witchcraft we are dealing with is really nasty and is called THE KING OF MUD.

Instructions.
1. Play as the Russians.
2. Convince your German opponent that FOR HIM it's NON RANDOM weather is better.
3. As soon as you are in danger of a breakthrough or you are about to loosing a key city or again just for fun, throw him a MUD TURN.

How?
4. Do your turn regularly.
5. Save it.
6. Click on FINISH TURN.
7. Verify both that the MUD TURN happened and comes in the weather zone you prefer.
8. If it does not satisfy one of the 2 conditions above, close, reload the game and try again.


I know it could be annoying, as the chance of having a MUD TURN in July or August 1941 is very low, so you could reload the game even 100 times. But the result is devastating: not only you stop the brave and fierce German general, but also you crack his supply system for a while.

Remember that to become LORD of WEATHER you need to force ALL THE 3 MUD TURNS between July and August 1941.


In the next lesson: how to bomb enemy units without having bombers.

_____________________________

ACHTUNG, PANZER!
Post #: 1
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 9:41:46 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

7. Verify both that the MUD TURN happened and comes in the weather zone you prefer.


What version do you play? Weather rolls and weather is not shown at the end of Axis logistics as it used to be - it was fixed at one of the patches.

Btw, if you really like to report such problems, PM or email is much more preferable. We do get them quite regularly and trying to fix when possible. Thanks

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to ULTIMO)
Post #: 2
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 10:00:49 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		er, I thought that the new, improved, anti-cheating features on the server were supposed to prevent stuff like this?

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 3
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 10:06:47 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

er, I thought that the new, improved, anti-cheating features on the server were supposed to prevent stuff like this?


Regardless of the issues, so many reloads on the server should be visible and may get reported.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 4
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 10:15:07 AM   
ULTIMO


Posts: 51
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: ITALY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

7. Verify both that the MUD TURN happened and comes in the weather zone you prefer.


What version do you play? Weather rolls and weather is not shown at the end of Axis logistics as it used to be - it was fixed at one of the patches.

Btw, if you really like to report such problems, PM or email is much more preferable. We do get them quite regularly and trying to fix when possible. Thanks



Sorry if I did something wrong. I thought players should be aware of such bad behaviour. Was not my intention to bother anyone with this.
WITE is the best game ever pubblished and must be protected by cheaters.

I will send you an email to you with other cheating issues.

About this one, I'm using the last version 1.06.06, but I cant be sure of which version my opponents are using. We are not playing on server. PBEM.


_____________________________

ACHTUNG, PANZER!

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 5
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 10:31:57 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		Version your opponent is using is shown in the Supply Phase Event Log (shift-e). As said, I can't get it replicated with the latest version, i.e. weather rolls and art are not shown at the end of the logistics.

If you able to get info on coming weather in PBEM with the latest official (or beta) version. Please send your report to 2by3@2by3games.com. Thanks!

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to ULTIMO)
Post #: 6
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 1:20:48 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		"We do get them quite regularly and trying to fix when possible"

What a sorry condemnation of human behavior. Who has the time or inclination to sit around for hours trying to figure out ways to cheat, and then cheat?

Would it be hard to program an "open-save" counter? Make it so that everytime the file is opened it gets tagged with a new identifier. Embed a small program within the program to do this.

I completely trust my 2 current opponents, but I am getting more and more concerned about playing a complete, "stranger."


Marquo


(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 7
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 1:25:39 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo
"We do get them quite regularly and trying to fix when possible"

What a sorry condemnation of human behavior. Who has the time or inclination to sit around for hours trying to figure out ways to cheat, and then cheat?


I think you're being too harsh! I think a lot of people stumble upon these things accidentally, and the fact that people report them would seem to indicate that people want the loopholes fixed, not that they hope to take advantage of them!

I'm still completely clueless how I would know if my opponent is cheating, however. The counter idea has been mentioned several times, and seems a good one, not sure why the devs aren't biting? Maybe they realize that cheaters are a large part of the player base

< Message edited by 76mm -- 5/14/2012 1:26:40 PM >

(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 8
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 1:46:24 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"We do get them quite regularly and trying to fix when possible"

What a sorry condemnation of human behavior. Who has the time or inclination to sit around for hours trying to figure out ways to cheat, and then cheat?



It is like 76 mm says, mostly you stumble across them and the whistleblowers, the players who report them, are the good guys! The bad guys are those who find them and use them and never tell.

I have reported one cheat and two kind of cheesy exploits, two of which have been fixed. Needless to say, I didn't use them, but reported them as soon as I discovered them.

_____________________________

Read my AAR:s ye mighty, and despair!
41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
42Ger
42Sov

(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 9
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 4:26:25 PM   
gids

 

Posts: 369
Joined: 12/2/2010
Status: offline 		now i know how you did those horrible breakthroughs ;)

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 10
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 4:45:42 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

Posts: 1446
Joined: 6/23/2010
Status: offline 		If you are redownloading your turns, it is all logged on the server, and you will be warned about it . There is an escalating scale of responses we can take on our end, with an obvious endpoint of a ban from MP play.

We are committed to preventing cheating as much as we possibly can. Fair games are critical to a fun experience.

Cheers

Pip

(in reply to gids)
Post #: 11
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 6:33:01 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		I still don't understand why the number of reloads isn't just forwarded to an opponent as a matter of course.They can then make their own mind up as to what constitutes an unreasonable number.

(in reply to PipFromSlitherine)
Post #: 12
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 9:17:54 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		+1

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 13
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/14/2012 10:12:18 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

Posts: 1446
Joined: 6/23/2010
Status: offline 		Because sometimes things happen, games crash, internet goes down. Some people would understand, others would instantly post to every forum they could find that "X is a cheater! Never play him!". We want to avoid flame wars and accusations. We have real people investigating any redownloads, and we don't want them to have to filter all that data so that it can be sent out to players.

Cheaters get warned, and if they ignore the warnings they get banned.

Cheers

Pip

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 14
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/15/2012 1:33:26 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Good points; the cheaters would remain covert. But my point is still valid: "Who has the time or inclination to sit around for hours trying to figure out ways to cheat, and then cheat?"

Tiller's Panzer Campaign games have a File Save option for PBEM. I used to try to only play opponents who would agree to not using the File Save option. Some would argue, "The turns take too long, so I need to save." Well, my position was that I wanted to play opponents who had the time and inclinication to finish turns in one sitting. And I did not have any problem finding like-minded opponents.

Marquo


(in reply to PipFromSlitherine)
Post #: 15
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/15/2012 2:28:34 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 688
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

We have real people investigating any redownloads,
Pip



Pip can you clarify something, when you say redownloads do you mean from a single point (time stamp) ie starting a turn & not liking the results & starting again from the same position. Or does it also include playing a part of your turn then saving to the server & coming back later to continue. When I play either against a Human opponent or the AI I normally do my turns in the evening (after Wifey has gone to bed) the problem is that I will also get tired & sometimes will not be able to finish the turn (especially if it is dificult). So I save the game & return to it the next time I have some free time. Would doing that be classed as cheating because if so why have a save game function.

(in reply to PipFromSlitherine)
Post #: 16
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/15/2012 2:53:48 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 688
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

er, I thought that the new, improved, anti-cheating features on the server were supposed to prevent stuff like this?


I think he is talking about PBEM because as soon as you end turn in a server game it passes over to your opponent for their turn
Manstein63

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 17
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/15/2012 4:04:49 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo
I used to try to only play opponents who would agree to not using the File Save option. Some would argue, "The turns take too long, so I need to save." Well, my position was that I wanted to play opponents who had the time and inclinication to finish turns in one sitting. And I did not have any problem finding like-minded opponents.


I don't undertand your objection--surely the problem is the people that don't save, not those that do? After losing several turns to computer crashes, freezes, server outages, etc., I save once or twice every turn at this point--what is the problem with that?

(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 18
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/15/2012 4:05:38 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63
I think he is talking about PBEM because as soon as you end turn in a server game it passes over to your opponent for
their turn


doh, I think you're right, I misread his post.

(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 19
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/15/2012 5:01:15 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		I think it's the ratio of downloads to uploads. For every download, there should be an upload. If you start seeing many more downloads than uploads then it may be due to cheating. If every time you load a save (download), you save the game (upload), then you are ok. So no problem saving mid turn.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 20
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/15/2012 5:39:43 PM   
ULTIMO


Posts: 51
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: ITALY
Status: offline 		Ok, I understand.
3-4 saves can be considered ok, but the thread started from a different situation.
In 2 different PBEM games, in which I have v 1.06.06 installed, playing as Axis the 1941 campaign, I got 3 MUD TURNS between July and August 1941.

After the second game, I tried by myself (playing against the AI as the Soviet this time) to force the weather. And I got rewarded, because for half a second at the end of the Soviet turn, I could see the weather choosen for the next turn.

This need a fix.

The other weird thing: I will not tell it here, but I will email to tech support.
One of my current opponent is using it EVERY TURN and IT IS DEVASTATING!

_____________________________

ACHTUNG, PANZER!

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 21
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/15/2012 6:29:34 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I tried by myself (playing against the AI as the Soviet this time) to force the weather. And I got rewarded, because for half a second at the end of the Soviet turn, I could see the weather choosen for the next turn.


Protection is only for H2H (PBEM/Server) games. I just tried it and couldn't see it.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to ULTIMO)
Post #: 22
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/15/2012 7:34:17 PM   
ULTIMO


Posts: 51
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: ITALY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

I tried by myself (playing against the AI as the Soviet this time) to force the weather. And I got rewarded, because for half a second at the end of the Soviet turn, I could see the weather choosen for the next turn.


Protection is only for H2H (PBEM/Server) games. I just tried it and couldn't see it.

quote:

erver) games. I just tried it and couldn't see it.



So what is the explanation of the TWICE TRIPLE MUD turns in July-August 1941?

_____________________________

ACHTUNG, PANZER!

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 23
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/15/2012 7:45:27 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

So what is the explanation of the TWICE TRIPLE MUD turns in July-August 1941?


This is totally different question. :)

I can guess: bug, bad(good) rolls, lucky reloads, save hacks, moon phases, bad (good) horoscope,etc. There should be a clear way to replicate it. So far I see no way how to get info on the following turn in PBEM. If you know how to do it, please post a step by step instructions.



_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to ULTIMO)
Post #: 24
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/15/2012 8:34:05 PM   
ULTIMO


Posts: 51
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: ITALY
Status: offline 		Ok, I'm gonna buy Holy Water...

_____________________________

ACHTUNG, PANZER!

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 25
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/16/2012 8:33:48 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline
quote:

I don't undertand your objection--surely the problem is the people that don't save, not those that do? After losing several turns to computer crashes, freezes, server outages, etc., I save once or twice every turn at this point--what is the problem with that?


The people who do not save can't reload and cheat. The Tiller HPS games have an option to disallow file save and this is how I play people I do not know.

I would gladly play you PBEM or otherwise without any hesitation because I "know" you, but a random person who I do not know? No way - no pbem as it now stands.

Marquo [:)

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 26
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/17/2012 9:23:51 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Marquo are you aware that in PzC that a player can edit the OOB file and increase or decrease the value of any unit?

I was a victim of that and was totally unaware it could happen untill advised by Glenn Saunders.

_____________________________


(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 27
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/17/2012 10:05:48 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo
The people who do not save can't reload and cheat. The Tiller HPS games have an option to disallow file save and this is how I play people I do not know.


Sorry, I'm still struggling to understand the issue, are you talking only about PBEM or server games?

In server games, once you save, you lock-in the in-game status on the server, and I don't see how cheating is possible with saved games. On the server, my understanding is that cheating is only possible if you play awhile, don't like the result, exit without saving, and then start over. I usually play for a while, save the game (lock in the status at that point, reopen the game, continue to play, save, wash and repeat... Playing for a couple of hours and then losing the turn because of a server problem, computer crash, etc. just sucks!

I only play server games, but mainly for the convenience (no fiddling around with attaching files, etc.) but the cheat protection is also attractive.

(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 28
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/17/2012 5:04:58 PM   
jwduquette1

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 3/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Version your opponent is using is shown in the Supply Phase Event Log (shift-e). As said, I can't get it replicated with the latest version, i.e. weather rolls and art are not shown at the end of the logistics.

If you able to get info on coming weather in PBEM with the latest official (or beta) version. Please send your report to 2by3@2by3games.com. Thanks!


I'm not sure if this is similar to what ULTIMO is referring to, but an example of what I think he might mean occurs when the rail road status button is left "ON" when ending a turn. For several seconds while the end of turn calculations and routines are occurring and before the SAVE screen pops-up you can see the status of the enemies RR (those green or red circles over RR-tracks). With RR status it's not such a big deal as you can in essence see the status of the enemies RR's by hovering over a hex with the mouse cursor and looking at the status of the tracks in the hex info pop-up.

With the Random weather cheat that ULTIMO is referring to, do the weather graphics -- those little brown mud dots -- appear on the map during the end of turn calcs and routines -- ala the RR track status button being left in the ON position?

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 29
RE: The House of CHEATING - 5/17/2012 5:11:44 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Ok, that's a possible clue. Are you saying that you can see the weather graphics on the map for a few seconds? I think we were focused on the weather indicator at the top right of the screen, and not the weather graphics. Is this the case with recent versions?

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to jwduquette1)
Post #: 30
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