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Why can ships sink while being fixed docked in a port?

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Why can ships sink while being fixed docked in a port? Page: [1]
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Why can ships sink while being fixed docked in a port? - 11/28/2002 12:11:19 PM   
iceboy

 

Posts: 97
Joined: 8/27/2002
From: USA
Status: offline 		I had an APD sink on me just after I had docked the fleet it was in to fix it in port. Isn't it kind of dumb to have a ship sink on you while you are fixing it in port? Especially since most ports have drydocks, shallow water, floats, tugs, ropes, piers, etc.

Also - Why do fleets not automatically dock when they arrive in port? And yes I have set the target and home port as the same base. The first turn my fleets arrive at a base I usually have to hit the dock button manually. This also applies to unloading and loading afterwards. Why doesnt the computer do this automatically when it first arrives?:confused:
Post #: 1
The Normandie - 11/28/2002 3:28:37 PM   
PBYPilot


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: Marina del Rey, CA
Status: offline 		Try a Google search on the ship name above to see. Ships sink all the time while docked. It's REALLY messy. :)

Not sure about the answer to your other observation. I've had both happen (both "auto docked" and not docked) and am not sure what accounts for the difference.

PBYPilot

edit (Actually Normandie Liner works better as a search topic)

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 2
- 11/28/2002 3:37:18 PM   
iceboy

 

Posts: 97
Joined: 8/27/2002
From: USA
Status: offline 		Hi thanks for responding. :) But the Normandie burned while in port. I was referring to sinking completely in water and lost forever. It just doesnt seem like a ship would sink in port.





"Try a Google search on the ship name above to see. Ships sink all the time while docked. It's REALLY messy.

Not sure about the answer to your other observation. I've had both happen (both "auto docked" and not docked) and am not sure what accounts for the difference.

PBYPilot

edit (Actually Normandie Liner works better as a search topic)"

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 3
- 11/28/2002 3:41:26 PM   
iceboy

 

Posts: 97
Joined: 8/27/2002
From: USA
Status: offline 		hehe i just thought about something. i guess you have to have this happen so that when you attack ships in port they will sink. no way around it i guess. :)

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 4
- 11/28/2002 4:05:49 PM   
PBYPilot


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: Marina del Rey, CA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by iceboy
[B]Hi thanks for responding. :) But the Normandie burned while in port. I was referring to sinking completely in water and lost forever. It just doesnt seem like a ship would sink in port.[/B][/QUOTE]

Well the Normandie burned and capsized while docked. She "sank". It took well over a year in a port with all the resources of wartime New York to raise her. Arguably a ship sunk by torpedos or bombs would be more difficult to raise than one that burned.

All the battleships at Pearl Harbor in 1941 were "sunk". All but one were eventually raised and repaired. It just took several years to do so.

So ships "sunk" while docked in UV may very well be present, visible, maybe not even fully submerged. But given the limits of recovery facilities available in the South Pacific in 1942 - 1943, they are just as "sunK" as one resting on the bottom at 2000 fathoms. :eek:

In fact aren't there still hulks of ships sunk in shallow water still visible in the backwaters of the South Pacific?

PBYPilot

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 5
- 11/29/2002 11:13:14 PM   
Toro


Posts: 578
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: 16 miles southeast of Hell (Michigan, i.e.), US
Status: offline 		I would say the best definition of "sunk" in the game's context is "lost floatation ability." Once that happens, it's unusable, and realistically so. Hard to get power, or access to magazines for guns, when the below decks are submerged.
Pierside sinkings can happen. I think of it this way: flooding progression had gone to the point that the facilities and crew could not stop it.

Remember: ports sized 1-2 cannot help in stopping floatation damage, and can't help in repair.

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 6
- 11/30/2002 5:15:14 AM   
Diealtekoenig

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 5/18/2002
From: Port Moresby, New Guinea
Status: offline 		I hear that the Arizona sank while in port . . .

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 7
what about - 11/30/2002 11:29:06 AM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline 		the Tirpitz, bombed and "sunk" at her moorings in Norway (Tromso or Bodo or wherever it was). She didn't go under the water - her bottom sunk to the bottom but I think her decks were still above water.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 8
- 11/30/2002 12:33:39 PM   
strollen

 

Posts: 159
Joined: 5/18/2002
Status: offline 		I went diving in Guadacanal a few years ago there are several Marus which were beached and then sunl . Here in Pearl Harbor there are a number of ships that sunk in port, several of which took some time to sink..

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 9
- 11/30/2002 7:35:34 PM   
Buchon

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 10/20/2002
From: Castellón, Spain
Status: offline 		BB California was hit the 7, but didn´t sunk till 10. And Pearl Harbour was a quite equipped base.

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 10
- 12/1/2002 1:27:56 AM   
iceboy

 

Posts: 97
Joined: 8/27/2002
From: USA
Status: offline 		You guys are all reading my post wrong. I have no problem with ships being sunk in port while attacked. I just thought it was a little strange that my ship would sink on me while being tied up in dry dock while being fixed by my repairmen with no enemy interference.

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 11
- 12/1/2002 1:39:05 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by iceboy
[B]You guys are all reading my post wrong. I have no problem with ships being sunk in port while attacked. I just thought it was a little strange that my ship would sink on me while being tied up in dry dock while being fixed by my repairmen with no enemy interference. [/B][/QUOTE]

Happens a lot. Just because a heavily damaged ship is tied up to a dock doesn't mean that it will float, particularly if the water's comin' in the holes faster than the pumps can empty 'er out. Also, there aren't very many harbor masters who are going to allow a burning ship to tie up to the quay (or even enter the harbor in the first place, for that matter).

Remember, too, that even the largest ports in UV were pretty primitive. Truk was probably the best, but still lacked such things as drydocks large enough for capital ships and emergency underwater hull repair equipment (to keep those cripples floating until the fix-it crews could get to work). Brisbane was also severely limited in this regard. Noumea? Large anchorage, short on facilities.

Both sides did the best they could with what they had, but, often, it just wasn't enough. Also, a lot of ships came in so damaged that the amount of time and effort required in order to save them wasn't worth it.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 12
- 12/1/2002 2:49:12 AM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		There's sunk, and then there's sunk. Many times it was easier and safer (in shallow water) to allow the ship to settle on the bottom upright than to run the risk of it capsizing and becoming a more or less total loss. A ship might have very little actual systems or structural damage, but just have a bigger hole(s) in it than they could immediately deal with.

The Japanese salvaged numerous ships, of all different sizes, throughout the war. Especially ships sank or hastily scuttled in ports they overran early in the war.

A salvage capability is beyond the scope of UV, but should definitely be included in WitP.

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 13
- 12/1/2002 8:30:31 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by iceboy
[B]You guys are all reading my post wrong. I have no problem with ships being sunk in port while attacked. I just thought it was a little strange that my ship would sink on me while being tied up in dry dock while being fixed by my repairmen with no enemy interference. [/B][/QUOTE]

What size port was it? If it is not a size 3 or higher the flood damage is not repaired very fast at all and can in fact get worse. Maybe this is what happened.

Rick

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 14
- 12/2/2002 3:56:03 AM   
iceboy

 

Posts: 97
Joined: 8/27/2002
From: USA
Status: offline 		I was playing as the Japanese and the port was Rabaul.


"What size port was it? If it is not a size 3 or higher the flood damage is not repaired very fast at all and can in fact get worse. Maybe this is what happened."

Rick

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 15
- 12/2/2002 3:59:18 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		Well then the only thing I can think of is the rate of repair was not enough to out pace the rate of flooding. What was it at when you entered port? Above 90%?

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 16
- 12/2/2002 8:50:30 AM   
iceboy

 

Posts: 97
Joined: 8/27/2002
From: USA
Status: offline 		I think the floodrate was about 70% or 80%. I will have to go back and check my old saves.

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 17
- 12/2/2002 9:46:07 AM   
DoomedMantis


Posts: 1922
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		I think this is a good feature.

I had a CV based at Gilli that had its flood rate fluctuate between 60 and 80 before it finally manged to get it under control. It took about a month to get the flooding under control in total, and I could well picture the struggle the dock crews were having trying to contol it.

It was with great satisfaction that I was able to save the ship and it is now on its way (slowly) back to Truk before being sent to Tokyo.

Once the flooding was below 60 I knew I was safe. The flooding would slowly reduce for a few days then the following day blow out by say 10 or 12. I think once the port got to a level 5 port I was alright.

_____________________________

I shall make it a felony to drink small beer.

- Shakespeare

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 18
Re: what about - 12/2/2002 5:23:27 PM   
msaario

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Back in E U R O P A
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luskan
[B]the Tirpitz, bombed and "sunk" at her moorings in Norway (Tromso or Bodo or wherever it was). She didn't go under the water - her bottom sunk to the bottom but I think her decks were still above water. [/B][/QUOTE]

Tirpitz actually capsized:
[URL=http://www.bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz/gallery/themes/gallthemetirwreck.html]http://www.bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz/gallery/themes/gallthemetirwreck.html[/URL]

I would call this a total loss...

--Mikko

(in reply to iceboy)
Post #: 19
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