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Why won't my CV TF attack a BB?

 
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Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/27/2012 11:28:44 PM   
TheOx

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 10/19/2005
Status: offline 		Ok, sent my CV TF (Enterprise, Wasp, a CVL and a RN CV) to catch a IJN BB TF (1 BB 1 CA 2 DD?) in the Solomons. My LBA is hacking away at them. I get my CV TF in position (3 hexes away) and nada. Heres the info.

1) They have sorties, they just got rearmed and such at Kwajalein.
2) The Brit was in command, I ordered him into his own TF thinking it was the commander score and replayed the turn. Nada.
3) They are set to Naval Attack with 20% search on my DBs. Naval Attack no search for the TBs.

What gives? Why would any commander not sortie against a capital ship? Especially if its lightly defended?
Post #: 1
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/27/2012 11:38:05 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Weather is the culprit 99% of the time.

Is your CV TF in the same hex as your LBA that is flying (which is not likely)?

Do you have clouds turned on so you can see when your TFs are engulfed in poor weather?

Are you getting messages that your seaplanes on the cruisers escorting your carriers are not flying due to poor weather?

Have you looked at the weather forecast for the hex your carriers are in?

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RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/27/2012 11:43:23 PM   
TheOx

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 10/19/2005
Status: offline 		Good call, I'll check in a minute.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 3
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/27/2012 11:58:16 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		Hans -

Good stuff; I appreciate your input - and learn more every day.

Mac

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Post #: 4
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/28/2012 1:48:09 AM   
TheOx

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 10/19/2005
Status: offline 		My weather forecast is clear and no clouds. My scout planes from Enterprise are spotting the TF according to my reports.

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 5
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/28/2012 3:59:20 AM   
PizzaMan


Posts: 200
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		I'm sure it must be that other 1% of the time when it's not the weather.

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Post #: 6
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/28/2012 4:18:59 AM   
DOCUP


Posts: 3073
Joined: 7/7/2010
Status: offline 		Whats the Morale of your units.  Also did you have any escorts going in with your bombers?

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Post #: 7
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/28/2012 5:00:23 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		hi TheOx,

the short answer is, "sometimes they don't attack."

the long answer is trying to discover why they didn't. 1st, i don't think that bases/CVTFs communicate w/ each other, each one must detect the target separately. your LBAs won't share target info w/ your CVs. 2nd, weather is a big factor - storms in both launch & target hexes will lower the ability to detect the target & launch an attack. 3rd, there's a lot of 'checks' that the game makes - the air skill of the CVTF commander, the skills of his subordinate sqn commanders, ordnance availability, sqn morale & exp, NavSearch %age on the threat axis, etc.

but sometimes the game just decides not to attack, it seems it doesn't let your assets recognize the target as a potential threat.

have you set a reaction range for your CVTF?

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 8
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/28/2012 6:55:39 AM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

hi TheOx,

the short answer is, "sometimes they don't attack."

the long answer is trying to discover why they didn't. 1st, i don't think that bases/CVTFs communicate w/ each other, each one must detect the target separately. your LBAs won't share target info w/ your CVs. 2nd, weather is a big factor - storms in both launch & target hexes will lower the ability to detect the target & launch an attack. 3rd, there's a lot of 'checks' that the game makes - the air skill of the CVTF commander, the skills of his subordinate sqn commanders, ordnance availability, sqn morale & exp, NavSearch %age on the threat axis, etc.

but sometimes the game just decides not to attack, it seems it doesn't let your assets recognize the target as a potential threat.

have you set a reaction range for your CVTF?


You are wrong. I am 99.99% sure that there is no separate search for units/basaes. If planes from one base detect enemy all friendly bases and TFs see that enemy as he was detected by them.
So you can have search planes in one base and attack planes in second an they will attack even if they do not search for enemy.

What max range have your CV air groups? One time i accidentally set them on range 0 and that was reason they not fly.


< Message edited by koniu -- 5/28/2012 7:18:38 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/28/2012 7:44:46 AM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

hi TheOx,

the short answer is, "sometimes they don't attack."

the long answer is trying to discover why they didn't. 1st, i don't think that bases/CVTFs communicate w/ each other, each one must detect the target separately. your LBAs won't share target info w/ your CVs. 2nd, weather is a big factor - storms in both launch & target hexes will lower the ability to detect the target & launch an attack. 3rd, there's a lot of 'checks' that the game makes - the air skill of the CVTF commander, the skills of his subordinate sqn commanders, ordnance availability, sqn morale & exp, NavSearch %age on the threat axis, etc.

but sometimes the game just decides not to attack, it seems it doesn't let your assets recognize the target as a potential threat.

have you set a reaction range for your CVTF?


You are wrong. I am 99.99% sure that there is no separate search for units/basaes. If planes from one base detect enemy all friendly bases and TFs see that enemy as he was detected by them.
So you can have search planes in one base and attack planes in second an they will attack even if they do not search for enemy.

What max range have your CV air groups? One time i accidentally set them on range 0 and that was reason they not fly.



I think jmalter is right, carrier TF have to fly their own search.

(in reply to koniu)
Post #: 10
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/28/2012 8:52:54 AM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

hi TheOx,

the short answer is, "sometimes they don't attack."

the long answer is trying to discover why they didn't. 1st, i don't think that bases/CVTFs communicate w/ each other, each one must detect the target separately. your LBAs won't share target info w/ your CVs. 2nd, weather is a big factor - storms in both launch & target hexes will lower the ability to detect the target & launch an attack. 3rd, there's a lot of 'checks' that the game makes - the air skill of the CVTF commander, the skills of his subordinate sqn commanders, ordnance availability, sqn morale & exp, NavSearch %age on the threat axis, etc.

but sometimes the game just decides not to attack, it seems it doesn't let your assets recognize the target as a potential threat.

have you set a reaction range for your CVTF?


You are wrong. I am 99.99% sure that there is no separate search for units/basaes. If planes from one base detect enemy all friendly bases and TFs see that enemy as he was detected by them.
So you can have search planes in one base and attack planes in second an they will attack even if they do not search for enemy.

What max range have your CV air groups? One time i accidentally set them on range 0 and that was reason they not fly.



I think jmalter is right, carrier TF have to fly their own search.


Ok. I will test it when i back home. I was sure that there is no separate DLs for base and TFs and game do not recognize from what source search plane was.

Probably someone with game code knowledge can answer for that.



< Message edited by koniu -- 5/28/2012 8:56:32 AM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/28/2012 9:07:43 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

hi TheOx,

the short answer is, "sometimes they don't attack."

the long answer is trying to discover why they didn't. 1st, i don't think that bases/CVTFs communicate w/ each other, each one must detect the target separately. your LBAs won't share target info w/ your CVs. 2nd, weather is a big factor - storms in both launch & target hexes will lower the ability to detect the target & launch an attack. 3rd, there's a lot of 'checks' that the game makes - the air skill of the CVTF commander, the skills of his subordinate sqn commanders, ordnance availability, sqn morale & exp, NavSearch %age on the threat axis, etc.

but sometimes the game just decides not to attack, it seems it doesn't let your assets recognize the target as a potential threat.

have you set a reaction range for your CVTF?


You are wrong. I am 99.99% sure that there is no separate search for units/basaes. If planes from one base detect enemy all friendly bases and TFs see that enemy as he was detected by them.
So you can have search planes in one base and attack planes in second an they will attack even if they do not search for enemy.

What max range have your CV air groups? One time i accidentally set them on range 0 and that was reason they not fly.



I think jmalter is right, carrier TF have to fly their own search.


Ok. I will test it when i back home. I was sure that there is no separate DLs for base and TFs and game do not recognize from what source search plane was.

Probably someone with game code knowledge can answer for that.




There is no connection between strike assignement and the source of the DL increase. A DL is a DL, thats it.
This means, the source of the detection can be a floatplane launched from a CA, still the carrier planes would launch a strike.


BUT: (and thats a big but to consider)
There is a connection between strike assignement and the timing and the quality of a DL increase.

If the source of the DL increase is much further away from target than the CV TF ordered to NavB/T, this means that the DL increase only happens after the strike
has already been assigned to a target (or a secondary target), resulting in low priority or no targets being attacked.
And if the search is carried out by LBA with NavS in the low 20´s, well, you´re asking for 'it'.

So, as an example, it is a bad idea to have a CV TF on naval attack only (without search) and assigning the NavS task to Catalinas 400nm 'behind' the
carriers.



Edit: In general I prefer to use NavS originating from my CVs for a couple of simple reasons:

- cruise speed and range of the searching planes ensure that the search is done before the strikes are assigned (which could be otherwise for low cruise speed floatplanes
like Seagulls for example)
- weather is the same for the searcher as for the striker, preventing the big ooops situations where the base/ship of the searchplanes is covered in thunderstorms unable to
launch
- in general the NavS skill of the CV based planes is well above average, inreasing chances for a good detection

This neccesarily does in no way imply that its a bad idea to enhance the CV based search with every other asset available...

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 5/28/2012 10:09:20 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/28/2012 10:05:03 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

hi TheOx,

the short answer is, "sometimes they don't attack."

the long answer is trying to discover why they didn't. 1st, i don't think that bases/CVTFs communicate w/ each other, each one must detect the target separately. your LBAs won't share target info w/ your CVs. 2nd, weather is a big factor - storms in both launch & target hexes will lower the ability to detect the target & launch an attack. 3rd, there's a lot of 'checks' that the game makes - the air skill of the CVTF commander, the skills of his subordinate sqn commanders, ordnance availability, sqn morale & exp, NavSearch %age on the threat axis, etc.

but sometimes the game just decides not to attack, it seems it doesn't let your assets recognize the target as a potential threat.

have you set a reaction range for your CVTF?


You are wrong. I am 99.99% sure that there is no separate search for units/basaes. If planes from one base detect enemy all friendly bases and TFs see that enemy as he was detected by them.
So you can have search planes in one base and attack planes in second an they will attack even if they do not search for enemy.

What max range have your CV air groups? One time i accidentally set them on range 0 and that was reason they not fly.



I think jmalter is right, carrier TF have to fly their own search.



I agree. This little portion of code goes all the way back to the UV days when even individual squadrons of LBA would refuse to fly unless they each had some search going on of their own.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 13
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/28/2012 10:10:10 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		See my post, Hans, this is incorrect. It is simply more reliable to use CV based search. It does in no way prevent strikes per se...

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Post #: 14
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/29/2012 5:40:40 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheOx

My weather forecast is clear and no clouds. My scout planes from Enterprise are spotting the TF according to my reports.


"Clear" doesn't mean no clouds in all areas. Weather reports are general descriptions that give you an hint of what is 'likely' in any given hex but not absolute. cloud cover/weather is determined by hex when it comes to air strikes being launched.

Put another way....if a 'region' weather report says "clear" there is still a chance that Hex 42,101 might roll for "clouds" preventing a launch. Another example is if you turn Advanced Weather off....the default weather is Partially Cloudy.....so you'll still get storms here and there depending on what hex your TF is in.


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Post #: 15
RE: Why won't my CV TF attack a BB? - 5/29/2012 6:08:36 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		LoBaron, thanks for your post #12. you've certainly increased my understanding about how the air-search works.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 16
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